16.6% of US retail sales in 2021 were returned by consumers | Hacker News Reader

16.6% of US retail sales in 2021 were returned by consumers

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41 pointsminhduong24336 comments

This doesn't surprise me the slightest. Goods sold in online marketplaces like Amazon or eBay have taken a nose dive in durability and finish. The review farming has also gotten so out of control that a nearly five star rating can't even be trusted. If these companies weren't as good as they are with their return and refund policies they'd be out of business overnight.

It's difficult to find anything good these days. Search "pedestal fan" on Amazon and you'll be flooded with Chinese imports without any indication of quality or even any ability to search for specific features (eg continuous speed adjustment vs 3 fixed speeds), requiring you to read the detailed reviews for the thousands of search results. If I want to buy from random Chinese suppliers I'll go to AliExperess.

Nowadays I view Amazon as Aliexpress with a markup for faster shipping, it’s literally the same shit just more expensive.

And easier returns. And a marginally better interface (which isn't saying much.)

But yeah, the majority of the products are the same thing with a higher price tag.

It gets even worse. Products you've already purchased and enjoyed will be silently replaced with cheaper, shittier versions over time because these companies are betting we're all too dumb to notice.

The last thing I bought before I closed my Amazon account this year was one of those little Honeywell desk fans. It was the same model I had before at the same price. The new one was made of brittle, horrible plastic already cracked out of the box that feels rough and nasty to touch. If you leave it on for 3+ hours the motor overheats. It's not the same fan, but it sure is advertised like it.

Sounds like you might’ve gotten a counterfeit. This can happen even if you buy from Amazon, because they commingle 3rd party goods and their own. I ordered some incense samplers, and some of them were clearly fake. Who would fake something so cheap? At this point it seems almost anything is a candidate. Amazon feels like a gamble every time you buy now.

> Who would fake something so cheap?

Opportunists who "knows a guy" in logistics or manufacturing that is sitting on a pile of defective/lost anything.

Got a batch of incense that didn't pass QA? I buy it from you for pennies (or free), fabricate brand-name packaging, sell for full retail price. No risk, all reward.

It's not like traditional counterfeiting-- you don't set out looking to make knockoff Band-Aids like you would a designer handbag. This stuff just falls into peoples' laps. Selling counterfeit product is more rewarding than throwing it away.

I’ve seen products get replaced with something completely unrelated as well. These scar removal sheets used to be Listerine floss according to my order history: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00NHWZ17K

I find myself ordering from Amazon less and less, in part because I am tired of wading through all the crap and fake reviews. I’ve been a Prime member for years, but I’ve decided not to renew it. The recent price increase doesn’t help, nor does all the negative PR around how they treat employees.

Yeah, I just moved back to the US and bought a whole house worth of new stuff on amazon. It is definitely noticeable how much junkier this stuff is than it was in the past. I ended up with a huge amount of returns.

Gotta laugh. Seems that we are no longer customers, but consumers; like some open-mouthed whale hoovering up the plankton. Feed me, feed me now!

> While retailers have indicated that they are seeing an increase in items returned to stores and online, the upside is that it also provides them with additional opportunities to connect further with customers and provide a positive experience.

Yes, because a customer that wastes your time and money is really valuable. That's sarcasm, by the way.

I'm actually surprised by the 10.6% return rate in 2020. I buy low-value items, so it's not like I'm taking a punt on much. I almost never return items. What are people playing at? It's straight-down-the-middle guy like me that are ultimately ponying-up for these flakes. eBay is pretty good. Amazon seems to want you to spend at least £20, so I try to avoid them on the whole.

Sometimes I buy multiple sizes of things and return the ones I don’t need. It’s mostly a convenience thing. I can go to an amazon locker and quickly return what I don’t need during my normal errands.

Please don't do that, returns often get thrown away. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/free-re...

Problems like that can only be fully fixed by correctly taxing externalities so that they're priced in. Telling one person on the internet to change their behavior won't have much impact.

I 100% agree, but it's not nothing, and the person I replied to isn't the only person who saw the comment.

In the last 6 months alone, I've had roughly $10000 in returns due to just getting the wrong thing. USB instead of ethernet, 16 port vs 24, shit like that.

There's a growing industry of "resellers" who buy an in-demand product and attempt to sell it for more, and if it doesn't work they can just return it. Larger ticket items like electronics (especially next-gen game consoles) are one example.

Ha. The one time I found myself in that position (by accident; missed return window for an in-demand item I couldn't afford), I got scammed by the person I resold the item to-- they accused me of sending them a lesser model. PayPal sided with them.

Anecdotal, but I've returned more purchases in the last two years than I did in the last 20 years combined. Part of that though is I have bought way more stuff yearly than I did before. This isn't wise in precarious times, of course, but throughout the pandemic I took up way more outdoors hobbies and home projects than I did in the last 20 years combined, too.

I've returned $300 tents, $500 fly fishing waders, $400 ice fishing shelters, fishing poles, etc. Most of this was from being unhappy when I got the product in my hands, but sometimes it was from brick and mortar retail purchases.

I will say getting more comfortable with the act of returning stuff has led me to return things as small as a $10 roll of wire that I planned on using to repair my garage door opener but I didn't end up using. Probably a few years ago I would have just tossed it in the junk drawer. I don't know why I've made a mental shift but I have.

> The categories with the highest return rates were similar to 2020 metrics: auto parts (19.4 percent), apparel (12.2 percent) and home improvement and housewares (tied at 11.5 percent).

What percentage of sales would have to be auto parts to bring the average to 16.6%? I think something is stated incorrectly here.

Depends on the split between the other ones. Worst-case is 61% (assuming apparel makes up the other 39%).

The possible range is between 61% and 63.5%.

Remember that NRF is an industry lobbying group. Consider what influence they are trying to sell with data like this.

>Consider what influence they are trying to sell with data like this.

Well? What is it? Getting the government to legislate shorter return windows? Retailers can already declare "final sale" if they wanted to.

Because if they do declare all sales final, it kills sales. Customers do not like final sale, and regularly go for sellers they trust to take care of them. Generally final sales are only acceptable to consumers on things that obviously have logistical, regulatory, or cleanliness concerns.

If return windows were shortened via legislation, it would massively advantage shadier resellers, as nobody would be able to offer better return polices to offset a higher end price.

What would be the legal basis for a maximum window for returns?

The Atlantic has a fascinating article about what actually happens to these returns: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/free-re...

TLDR: We imagine they're processed/cleaned/resold, but the reality is that the majority of online retailers just throw the returned product away.

Some get resold. I've received stuff from Amazon that has clearly been opened, unpacked, repacked, and resold.

It can be a good thing for the companies. It could mean that people trust companies to accept their returns enough (which is by no means an obvious thing in less developed economies) that they buy a lot of things just to try them out and see if they like them. Which, overall, increases the sales, as people keep some of that stuff.

The rate of returns for online sales in 2021 was 20.8%. 10% of such returns was deemed fraudulent

Well, this is one reason things are slightly more expensive now.

Why would that be? If you return something to Amazon, Amazon charges the shitty supplier. Amazon doesn't take the hit. The good suppliers don't take the hit.

I would guess that Amazon does take a small or moderate hit with every return. And if the rate is this high then even "good" supplies will be affected (and probably are targeted more for fraud too).

Doesn't the supplier have a say on price??

How does that relate? In my scenario the costs are focused on bad suppliers. So their costs go up relative to good suppliers, the bad suppliers go out of business, good suppliers remain unharmed.

Are you saying returns are costless? At the end of the day, someone's shrink rate is expanding, and this had a direct impact on consumer prices.

I'm saying that, given most online retailers are moving products from 3rd parties, the costs are primarily going to be focused on those third parties. And among the third parties those whose businesses necessitate more returns (bad sizing info online, poor build quality) are worse. Those companies getting punished in the market is fine, and seems healthy. Companies that make it easier to order the genuine article you want will do better. Those with counterfeits, an inabilty to deliver the correct item, or bad size information will go out of business

“ The 2021 total rate of returns (16.6 percent) is up from 10.6 percent during 2020, but online returns in 2021 are in line with recent years at an average of 20.8 percent. ”

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