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> Americans want H1Bs to be temporary workers who go back home, not immigrate permanently. That’s why the statute has “temporary” plastered all over it

This is false. The H1B is a 'dual intent visa', which means it "allows foreigners to be temporarily present in the U.S. with lawful status and immigrant intent".

> Unless they’re eligible for a real immigrant visa (in America, the main one is the family reunification visa)

This is false. An H1B ("temporary worker") from, say, Iraq or Serbia has no wait times for a green card. In contrast, a child ("family reunification") of a Mexican US Citizen must wait at least 20 years for a green card.

That’s not a quote from the statute. Under INA 214(b), an immigrant entering the country is presumed to have immigrant intent unless he can prove that he intends to stay only temporarily and plans to leave. This is a condition of entry on any non-immigrant visa, including the H1-B.

Ordinarily, applying for permanent residency would signal immigrant intent, which would be a violation of the H1B. The INS later created “dual intent” as a legal fiction that says that applying for a green card doesn’t, by itself, create a presumption of immigrant intent. Congress codified this narrow exception in the 1990s—but never eliminated the requirement that H1Bs have non-immigrant intent. See section 205(h) on PDF page 66: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/eoir/legacy/2009...

> (h) The fact that an alien is the beneficiary of an application for a preference status filed under section 204 or has otherwise sought permanent residence in the United States shall not constitute evidence of an intention to abandon a foreign residence for purposes of obtaining a visa as a nonimmigrant described in subparagraph (H)(i) or (L) of section 101(a)(15) or otherwise obtaining or maintaining the status of a nonimmigrant described in such subparagraph,

When someone here on an H1B applies for a green card, the government winks and says “we will both pretend that you still intend to go back home.” Their legal rights are limited to this indulgence. If they signed an affidavit swearing that “I definitely intend to immigrate here permanently and abandon my residence in my home country” the government might well be forced to kick you out.

INA 214(h) may be interpreted as follows:

"In addition, INA 214(h) provides that an H-1B nonimmigrant may have "dual intent," i.e., the fact that an H-1B nonimmigrant has sought permanent residence in the United States or will be seeking such status in the future does not preclude him or her from obtaining or maintaining H-1B nonimmigrant status. The applicant may legitimately come to the United States as a nonimmigrant under the H-1B classification and depart voluntarily at the end of his or her authorized period of stay, and, at the same time, lawfully seek to become a permanent resident of the United States without jeopardizing H-1B nonimmigrant status. Consequently, your evaluation of an applicant’s eligibility for an H-1B visa must not focus on the issue of immigrant intent." [1]

[1] https://fam.state.gov/fam/09FAM/09FAM040210.html

You’re quoting a State Department policies and procedures handbook. Its not the statute or even a regulation. It describes the current “wink, wink” practice that exists—as I noted above. But it doesn’t tell you what the law means, or give H1B holders any legal rights. See United States v. Mead. And it can be changed by any administration on a whim.

I agree with you that administrations can do pretty much whatever they want, but I think you are missing the point:

1. if H1Bs are not to lead to green cards per your interpretation of existing laws, then no H1Bs should lead to green cards, regardless of country of origin

2. if H1Bs do lead to green cards as we know they do in practice, as per my 'dual intent' understanding, or as per your 'wink wink' description, then they should lead to green cards regardless of country of origin

But the inconsistency in providing green cards to Tunisian H1Bs in 18 months while providing green cards to Indian H1Bs in 100 years is where the problem arises, and that is why the young author with a bright future is headed to India instead of applying his intelligence and abilities in the US.

I don’t think we’re in disagreement. I’m not saying what “should be” the case. My point is that if Indians feel like the current system creates misleading expectations, that’s because the system is built on the shifting sand of administrative whims, not solid legal rights. People get a job with an American company, the lawyers handle all the paperwork, and nobody swears the details. Then when something like the pandemic happens, or someone like Trump does something capricious, they’re surprised to learn that their status is much more contingent than they thought.

Just trying to understand, what do you mean by a "Mexican US Citizen"?

When I read this originally, I was a bit confused why the child would not have been a US citizen as well by merit of being born to a US Citizen...but I think you're saying that the parent received US citizenship after the child was born?

Yes, it could be one of many scenarios including the one you mention. It could also be that the child of the US citizen was born in Mexico perhaps during a vacation or prolonged stay.

For that child to become a US citizen would take at least 20 years and perhaps much longer to the point it would not be feasible, like in the case of the author.

Why not go right to the source:

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b

"The H-1B program applies to employers seeking to hire nonimmigrant aliens as workers in specialty occupations or as fashion models of distinguished merit and ability. A specialty occupation is one that requires the application of a body of highly specialized knowledge and the attainment of at least a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent. The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States."

At least according to the U.S. government's Department of Labor, H-1B is a nonimmigrant visa, offering temporary employment, for specialty occupations that cannot be found in the U.S. workforce. That said, it is highly likely there is some other official government source backing up your claim that it (as you quote from somewhere) "allows foreigners to be temporarily present in the U.S. with lawful status and immigrant intent". The U.S. government has a reputation for providing conflicting information!

"In addition, INA 214(h) provides that an H-1B nonimmigrant may have "dual intent," i.e., the fact that an H-1B nonimmigrant has sought permanent residence in the United States or will be seeking such status in the future does not preclude him or her from obtaining or maintaining H-1B nonimmigrant status. The applicant may legitimately come to the United States as a nonimmigrant under the H-1B classification and depart voluntarily at the end of his or her authorized period of stay, and, at the same time, lawfully seek to become a permanent resident of the United States without jeopardizing H-1B nonimmigrant status. Consequently, your evaluation of an applicant’s eligibility for an H-1B visa must not focus on the issue of immigrant intent." [1]

[1] https://fam.state.gov/fam/09FAM/09FAM040210.html

>>>I used to think the same, that the Americans don't really want us

I don't think so. At this point Americans don't seem to care. In ripe cities, they see many immigrants from different countries many of who are GC holders or citizens. Btw many of them came here a couple years ago on the same h1b visa, so not sure why only Indians should be looking at it differently?

The fact is America always needs high-skilled labor, to keep its economy at the No.1 position. They're however, not ready to reward that labor so readily.

It’s not about the ethnicity of the people who have immigrated, but not creating incentives for new people to come here permanently. Not “no Indians” but instead “America is full.”

I don’t believe America really needs high skill labor. When my family came here in 1989, America was already the undisputed #1, and there were less than 1 million desis in the country. Today there are over 6 million—but America is in decline. I’m not saying there is a correlation, but I think it’s self-indulgent to say the country needs skilled immigrants.

I guess it was the undisputed no. 1 in 1989 because it already had a surge of immigrants by then. Heck, America was made by immigrants if it comes to that.

I'm not saying it needs me, but generally standing strong at the top has its cost - to have a rock solid administration and to keep bringing the cream of the world to work for them. There couldn't have been such a boost possible otherwise.

> I guess it was the undisputed no. 1 in 1989 because it already had a surge of immigrants by then. Heck, America was made by immigrants if it comes to that.

Those immigrants were the poorest and least educated ones Europe and Asia had to offer. I’m just saying it’s presumptuous to say America “needs” the educated elite from other countries.

> America is in decline

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but can you be more specific about which metrics America is objectively declining at?

Our social indicators are bad. Since 1990, marriage rates have been cut in half, out of wedlock births have doubled among white Americans, the fertility rate has dropped well below replacement. Suicide rates have been increasing for 25 years. Life expectancy peaked in 2014 and dropped since then. Drug overdoses were under 10,000 in 1990 and just broke 100,000 last year. The economy continues to grow, but if you hadn’t noticed, that doesn’t seem to be making people happy. Young Americans have this profound pessimism—which is apparent from our increasingly bitter politics—that simply cannot be explained by the GDP numbers.

So the way I see it, there are definitely a lot of societal problems in this country - there is a massive gun problem, the economy is capital-first, there are major corporations that frequently lobby the Congress, and there is increasingly more isolation/depression among families or young adults. But then, compared to other countries like Japan, it's still doing a lot better.

There are so many areas where the American culture really shines. The civil rights and protection are fantastic, and in a country like India, it'd be a breakthrough to even have 5% of it. While no country is perfect, I guess it's not too late yet to put forth some measures to guide the country onto a path of correction.

Literally every sentence here is wrong. Pro-immigration sentiment is at its highest in decades. The H1-B visa is a dual intent visa and is the only real mechanism for skilled professional immigration.

The whole comment is so uninformed it’s just wholly nonsense. It’s fiction from the /r/asablackman genre.

What do you think “dual intent” means?

I suspect you don’t. But that’s fine. Readers should just go look it up themselves and they can conclude based on that and based on the latest on immigration sentiment whether you have any ground to stand on for your confidence.

I’ll provide a starting point https://news.gallup.com/poll/1660/immigration.aspx

Prescriptive vs Descriptive

Perhaps the literal interpretation of the law reaffirms your argument for the temporary status of the visa but that doesn't take away from the fact that H1-B visa holders have progressed to the permanent residence status through this track in the past.

This doesn't mean that every and each one of them is entitled now to this immigration status upgrade but this sentiment of "Here it says temporary in the law so you better pack up and leave now" is a bit unfair.

The words of the law are the law; everything else is whimsy. Many H1Bs did get permanent residence at a time when Americans were feeling optimistic. That’s not true anymore and desis should read the words of the law carefully in deciding where to go.

I think that you've made your point clear already regarding the literal interpretation of the immigration laws but I think that affected parties such as H1-B visa holders have the right to push for immigration reforms and pressure policy makers for a better outcome for their livelihood.

Sure, what else can they do? I’m just describing how the current system works, because I think a lot of people don’t realize how thin their legal rights under the H1B system really are.

I think then we're on the same page. They have the right to fight for their own interests and see what they can come up with in the end. whether path to citizenship or the nearest international airport, but to just ask them outright to pack up and leave because the law says so turns the whole discussion unnecessarily negative.

To be clear I wasn’t telling anyone to pack up and leave. I meant that folks considering emigrating from India should go to Canada or Australia where they can get a real immigration visa from the outset, instead of rolling the dice on the H1B and hoping whatever administration is in office 10-15 years from now is feeling welcoming.

> Americans feel that the country is full and will increasingly be enforcing the letter of the law.

I used to think the same, that the Americans don't really want us. But when the corona pandemic related lockdowns happened, and US banned people from India, US still allowed Indian college students. So there must be some need. These students are not coming to US for education, they are coming here to work, and get green card and become a citizen.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/05/03/us-rest...

> For a long time, d###s treated the H1-B system as a permanent immigration visa...D###s should internalize that.

And that is why I think posts like this are important. So that Indians who are considering moving to US know the ground reality, and make informed decisions rather than regret it later in life.

Need is different from want. Indian college students are future temporary workers, if that. Going to college here doesn’t guarantee you an H1B much less a green card. The rapidly aging American population has a need for various temporary workers, but they don’t need them to stay here and become citizens. There is no political will on either the left or the right to create a real, predictable skilled immigration system that doesn’t leave Indians and their families at the mercy of legal fictions like “dual intent” papering over what is fundamentally a temporary worker program.

Silicon Valley needs and perhaps even wants Indians as permanent immigrants. Insofar as Biden is supported by Silicon Valley with donations he’ll throw them some scraps. But Indians (and Asians generally) aren’t especially politically useful to Democrats. They aren’t eligible to vote for a decade or more, and don’t turn out even then. And they create internal tensions in the coalition (e.g. voting down Prop 16 in CA). Democrats will talk a lot about loving immigrants because they’re laser focused on the Hispanic vote. But reforming the H1B system doesn’t help with that and they won’t spend any significant political capital on that.

You are really complaining about people "making presumptions" downthread, and then claiming to speak for literally all Americans in this one?