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Comment by pech0rin | Hacker News Reader

Obviously this is a "bad person" and I do think they should be arrested, put in Jail, but... isn't this entrapment? I mean this guy UC-1 obviously brought up "hey you guys wanna buy some SAMs", and then they were arrested. I am curious if this is because the weapons charge would be a longer prison sentence than drug trafficking or they couldn't bust him on that without creating this situation.

Again, obviously this person should be behind bars, but this method of manufacturing scenarios seems somewhat insane to me. Maybe I am misinterpreting the release but thats the way it seems.

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In the US, the legal standard to use entrapment as a defense requires you to show 1) inducement (as opposed to mere solicitation) to commit the crime AND 2) that you were not predisposed to commit the crime. https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...

So entrapment basically means you were coaxed into a committing a crime that you weren't predisposed to commit. So if an undercover FBI agent becomes your best friend and begs you, who are not in the business of selling drugs or any contraband, to help them score some cocaine, that's entrapment. But if they just become a business associate of yours and ask you to help them source some stolen goods and you say yes, that's not entrapment because it's probably just solicitation, not inducement. Or say you're out there slinging cocaine on a corner and an undercover cop walks up to you, but you smell something fishy and turn him down, but then he begs you to help him because he really needs his fix and is going nuts, and you give in and sell to him. That sounds like inducement but you were already predisposed to commit that crime, so no entrapment defense for you probably.

Entrapment doesn’t mean that someone lied to you or tempted you while you committed a crime.

I really like this whole series:

https://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-w...

Great series. Shame about the typography. Found the font really hard to read.

The second example, Grayson, makes no sense to me. This is someone who would not have committed a crime, perhaps never has, and never would have if not being asked to do it. The police literally invented a situation to encourage him to commit a crime. Saying that he was "inclined" is weaselly. I doubt this would fly in the UK although curious to be shown otherwise.

I agree, knowing people that sell drugs doesn’t mean you’re “inclined” to do anything. The only thing is you can’t really accept heroin to sell.

I mean, even then it's contextual surely. How far can the police go? Can they look around for someone who's having an incredibly tough year financially, and offer them a one-off way to scrape through by selling drugs, even if the opportunity would never arise otherwise? We're in the realm of hyperrealism and state-constructed narratives here.

Maybe an easy and pretty safe way for the police departments to improve their statistics?

How far can they go -- I suppose they'd stop if they start getting too much bad press

Yes I imagine it's a consequence of target-based management practices infiltrating the public sphere. The "bad press" blocker works if the media is free and independent. Unfortunately in many countries it is often in the hands of corporate moguls and is co-opted into the exact same narrative building. The CIA famously tried to use the media for their own devious ends. In the UK we had the Hillsborough disaster among many other examples of press cover-ups.

I do remember a case in the UK where a man successfully defended his sale of ecstasy to an undercover officer on the grounds that she was very attractive. His argument was that he hoped to have a romantic relationship with her and would never have otherwise sold the drugs.

It’s never entrapment.

That term needs to die, my guess is plenty of people get nailed for committing minor crimes they might not have otherwise because someone (a cop) convinced them it’s not a big deal. (No clue how many cases like Jesse Snodgrass[0] there are but it’s wild that scenarios like this can even happen, there is always a real crime to be solved yet resources were wasted on this)

Along the same lines: “It’s never a hitman” (and now I suppose we can also add “You’re never buying a surface to air missile”)

[0] https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/the-entrapment-of-jesse...

Jesse Snodgrass came to my mind. Unbelievable what tax-payer funds get wasted on. The sooner "war on drugs" dies out, the better.

> Along the same lines: “It’s never a hitman”

Common in fraud cases: it's never "I was hacked."

(ed. for clarification: identity fraud and other social engineering feats are not "hacking.")

Thanks for the link, (the article at rollingstone.com) interesting read

I'm thinking about the police, in those cases, as the true criminals

Some kinds of entrapment are legal in Japan. In general, law enforcement there rarely fails to secure a conviction.

Because they don't try to convict unless they already know the person is likely guilty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OINAk2xl8Bc

Do we know this? To the police "know we can get a conviction" and "know is guilty" may be a distinction without a difference.

Did you watch the video?

The difference in numbers is how things are measured. Measure them the same way and Japan's rate is lower than the USA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate#:~:text=If%20m....

The Japanese system is big on coercing confessions (the American system is big on plea deals so you might think its the same, but its not quite the same thing). They have all kinds of buttons they can press to force the issue on you.

Another thing is even you are somehow found innocent, the prosecutor gets to immediately appeal and they are likely to win that appeal. You stay in jail/prison while all this plays out.

The US system is SUPPOSED to be based on its better to let the guilty go free than punish the innocent. (It fails at this but this is at least a lip service value) The Japanese system doesnt do this or really hold this as a major value.

well "Jailed in Japan for a crime she didn’t commit, a young American teacher learns the meaning of the phrase sho ga nai — “It can’t be helped.”" https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-videotap...

"The security guard had been trying to meet a quota and felt that I, as a foreigner, would make an easy target."

You're cherry picking. I can google "wrong person arrested" or similar and find 1000s of stories in the USA. The fact is Japan's conviction rate is lower than USA if you measure the same way. It's only because of the way it's measured that it appears to be higher.

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