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Comment by jedberg | Hacker News Reader

Protip from an old guy: Always get everything in writing. No verbal promises. Make sure everything you discussed is written in the offer. If you discussed 100% remote, make sure the offer says 100% remote. If it doesn't, ask them to add it before you sign.

And then if they go back on it, keep working there, look for a new job, don't go to the office even if they tell you that you have to, and bring up that you have it in writing that it's 100% remote.

And if they fire you anyway, you've got a good basis for a wrongful termination suit, while hopefully working at a new job and/or collecting unemployment.

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Another datapoint for getting it in writing:

I attended and then later worked at a graduate program in a high-demand niche of computer science. When I was a student a company rescinded an offer that had been signed months before and left one of my classmates scrambling at the last minute.

Several years later I taught there and found out the employer was still blocked from participating in the program's recruiting events. Had there been a handshake instead of a written offer it would be unlikely that they would have maintained that block for so long. The written offer was also referenced when communicating with the company in question, students, other programs in our niche, university administration, and especially other recruiters.

Needless to say, no student has had a similar issue since.

That feel when jedberg is now an old guy.

I agree with you, but in my experience that’s also a recipe for misery. If management is determined to get rid of you, they will find a way. And you’ll be stuck on awful do-nothing projects in the meantime.

Admittedly it’s much nicer to do that while being remote though. Just saying that it feels better to work at a place where management has your back.

And keep a red Swingline stapler with you...

> That feel when jedberg is now an old guy.

How do you think I feel! :)

> I agree with you, but in my experience that’s also a recipe for misery.

Agreed. When management doesn't have your back it's time to move on, which is why my advice starts with, "start your next job search", but in the meantime you can at least push back. At least you still get paid for do-nothing work!

What are your recommendations for those of us who work in "at-will" states, where it's common to see "Offer letter is not a contract" in the offer emails, contracts are often eschewed except for certain key roles, and where employers have a much easier time changing parameters of your employment? (No I'm not uprooting the family and moving, either)

Since most of us work in at-will states, the advice is pretty much the same. Once you get a sign that management is no longer on your side, start your next job search and document as much as you can.

And also try to get an actual contract and not just an offer. Most decent companies will actually give you a real contract beyond the offer that details what the job duties are and the compensation and anything else you've agreed on if you ask nicely. Or you can write one yourself and ask them to sign it.

But of course a lot of that depends on what leverage you have -- how badly do they want you on board.

Why document?

I've gotten that advice, but I've almost never seen it to be helpful:

- It's almost impossible to win a law suit for being fired, unless it's clearly based on sex/race/etc.

- If you sue, you'll burn bridges

- If future employers find out you sued, they won't want to hire you.

It's one of those things that's nice in abstract, but in practice, seems like a waste of time, relative to practising for interviews, applying for jobs, or trying to fix things with the old employer.

My advice is to jump ship, and leave on good terms.

Companies aren't people. I once worked for a company which wasn't a great employer, but I'm glad I left on good terms. The place no longer exists, and there are lots of people there whom I value.

The main purpose of documenting is to show HR that you are documenting, which may get them to reconsider sketchy behavior. But beyond that you are right, suing for being fired rarely works and usually is worse for you than them.

I have no desire to be vindicated. I'd like a peaceful life. That involves minimizing fights.

The main purpose of documenting is to show HR that you are documenting, which may get them to reconsider sketchy behavior.

I respect the ideal state you’re shooting for here, but that “may” leaves too much wiggle room for HR sleight-of-hands. I sit here and tell you with a straight face I’ve watched first hand companies doing some pretty shady things under the banner of HR that raised several ethical flags, but because they weren’t outright illegal, when the employee came back with plenty of documentation they still walked away with no judgement, no settlement, and no job.

“Showing” HR that I’m documenting just seems like a REALLY good way to get a very large target painted on my back and… I don’t know if people want to show their hands like that.

IANAL or OP; I work in CA (which AFAIK is at-will) and I made sure the actual employment contract specified remote, and didn't consider myself as having a new job until I had that paperwork (aka - didn't quit existing job, literally or emotionally, or stop other job search prospects, etc)

This works if they try to get you to come in right away, but things change and the company is allowed to change a remote position to an in-office position. It can even happen soon after hiring (but is obviously much more suspect). The company changing its mind !== wrongful termination.

> The company changing its mind !== wrongful termination.

It's true, it doesn't always mean that. But as with anything legal, it might mean that, it's mostly how well you can convince a judge!

That's not how contracts work. It does not matter if the company changes its mind. If it's in writing then it has to be honored or else contracts would be pointless if anyone can just change its mind without consequences.

There are no employment contracts in the US. Or rather, they are so incredibly rare (mostly executives, and even rare among them) it's not worth discussing in the context of employment.

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