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Comment by somethoughts | Hacker News Reader

It feels like Apple should have done/should do an official in-house docking system instead of outsourcing such a critical component in the overall system/value proposition.

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Actually they have a simple USB-C break-out adapter which has a USB-A port, an HDMI port and power-in. It works extremely well. You can connect it to a USB3.0 hub to get a lot of ports. I leave it at my office desk for day to day operation.

If you want a proper docking station, a higher end Dell monitor [0] will do with USB-C, display daisy chain and USB-PD. It'll enable single cable connectivity to anything you care, sans ethernet, which can be attached to the monitor's USB hub, if you really need.

For my mobility needs, I use a Kingston Nucleum [1] since I don't care about Ethernet, but about fast card readers. It also supports 60W USB-PD, which is ample for a MacBook Air M1. That thing is really high quality.

[0]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-ultrasharp-27-4k-u...

[1]: https://www.kingston.com/en/memory-card-readers/nucleum-usb-...

There's nothing like having to do Johnny Mnemonic cosplay because a manufacturer won't let their product be sullied with holes.

I don't think a MacBook Air M1 has a lot places to add ports [0]. The latest generation of MacBook Pros bring a lot of the ports back [1], so that point doesn't hold anymore.

Also, of all the MacBook Air users I know, I'm the heaviest user in terms of processor load, and given that it's the company computer, it wouldn't be my first choice for a personal MacBook (in fact, I have a personal MacBook Pro).

At the end of the day, having a featherweight computer which can do all my work related tasks and some heavier stuff and doesn't needs its charger and ports most of the time is really a spoiling thing. However, for heavy development and photographic work, nothing beats on board ports and a bigger screen.

[0]: https://www.apple.com/v/macbook-air/n/images/specs/mba_charg...

[1]: https://images.macrumors.com/t/MsiVifkTbdhdqh2z2tvJZXIuH80=/...

Looks like there's enough room for USB A ports to me. They're not massively thicker.

HDMI would require curving the bottom differently but would easily fit in a laptop of that thickness.

Reporting from my MacBook Air M1, there's actually not enough thickness. The (male) plug itself is as thick as the side of the laptop. Considering the (female) socket's size & surrounding machinery, the Air needs to be at least 20% thicker to accommodate a USB-A port.

The back edge is more than twice as thick as a USB C opening, which is 2.65mm. Unless this picture is wrong, that should be visibly thicker than an A plug...

But whatever, whether it fits or not with the current molding, the laptop does not need to be thicker to fit those ports. It just needs to change the curve near the back. Look how thick the middle is between the ports it has. That's way more than enough. Thickness including screen peaks at 16mm.

> Unless this picture is wrong, that should be visibly thicker than an A plug...

Just re-measured with a USB flash drive and an actual MacBook Air M1 (which I'm actually typing this comment on), and it's not. Do you want a photograph with a caliper?

> But whatever, whether it fits or not with the current molding, the laptop does not need to be thicker to fit those ports. It just needs to change the curve near the back. Look how thick the middle is between the ports it has. That's way more than enough. Thickness including screen peaks at 16mm.

Actually, you can see in [0], there's no space to fit a full depth, full height USB-A port inside there. You need to make the machine definitely thicker to accommodate that ports, given all the shielding a USB-A port around it [1]. This is a listing for a straight port. You'll probably need a 90 degree version in a MacBook Pro, unless apple does something ingenious.

[0]: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/eIi44fP1clanGHWQ.f...

[1]: https://sa.rsdelivers.com/product/wurth-elektronik/692121430...

I don't understand what your first picture is supposed to show.

But let's go back to the side view you first linked. Would you really say that this distance is too shallow for a USB A port? https://i.imgur.com/OtqDMh1.png It's more than a centimeter.

The first image I shared is an underside of an M1 MacBook Air, cover removed. I attached it to show how insanely cramped inside.

The machine reaches that thickness under the keyboard. Around the middle Torx screw holding the screen hinges on the top of the image.You can of course carry the thickness like the MacBook Pros to the edge, but there are other problems.

USB-A ports are a bit thicker than the opening themselves. A proper, high quality port has some spring loaded shielding pressing towards the port opening and it flares out, Also, 90 degree ports have some distance between the port body and contacts, since you need to fix the port to the board via quite a few pins (9 pins on electronic side, plus at least two for retention, unless you clamp in down via a retainer, which needs screws, etc).

All of this "machinery" adds quite a space required to implement a USB-A port on a board. As you can see in the article itself, the hubs themselves use "through the board, unflared" ports to minimize space use as much as possible, and none of them are very slim.

The slimmest USB 3.0 hub I've seen is from Anker [0][1], which I also use almost daily. As you can see, you need to have that slack around that port. Same port on a laptop needs same amount of slack around [2][3]. My older MacBook Pro also has similar amount of slack around its USB-A ports.

All in all, a MacBook Air doesn't have the thickness and space to include that port, in its current form. We're always talking about thickness, but insertion depth is at least 15%-20% greater for USB-A too. Plus you need the depth required for supporting the pins on the plug side. That needs to be taken into account, too.

[0]: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0493/9834/9974/products/An...

[1]: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0493/9834/9974/products/A7...

[2]: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16131/a-15inch-thin-laptop-fo...

[3]: https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16131/2.png

This is the ideal setup, imo. I know it's pricey due to the Apple markup, but I just expensed it through my job.

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MUF82AM/A/usb-c-digital-a...

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HJKF2ZM/A/belkin-usb-c-to...

https://us.anker.com/products/a7516?variant=40237697171606

The newest Dell monitors have Ethernet built in. I just got a 16:10 U3023 and have been using it a hub / dock. No issues yet.

They do--they just include the monitor as part of it. That seems to have been the vision since at least 2011 [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Thunderbolt_Display

That was discontinued over 6 years ago. In 2022, it isn't a great monitor, either.

They do have a replacement consumer monitor in 2022 [1], but in the meantime, they were selling and supporting the LG UltraFine 5K [2].

I haven't bought the new studio display, but the Thunderbolt Display was great and the LG UltraFine 5K is, too. Used both as daily drivers (and docking stations) for years. I only haven't bought the new one because that LG one is still going strong.

Regardless: my point is that this certainly seems to be "the vision." You don't need a docking station because your monitor functions as one. If I had to guess, they probably think normal people don't want to buy a docking station and then deal with a series of poorly-integrated peripherals.

[1] https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/apple-studio-display/stan... [2] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210205

I actually agree. Normally I'm against proprietary ports, but vendors that have done this in the past have traditionally killed a lot of birds with one stone. Both Dell and Lenovo's docking solutions are fantastic, and don't require expensive hardware to manufacture docks. As a result, you can get the full IO of your computer extended to a dock with 10+ ports for less than $30. Pretty great solution IMO.

The downside is all of the hardware ends up inside the laptop where you still pay for it and now can't upgrade it separately or reuse it with another laptop. Not that I ever remember Dell/Lenovo docks being $30 new anyways.

I remember I did receive a Dell dock complete with a spring mounted adapter for the actual laptop.

I wasn't thinking that though - I was thinking something like the ones reviewed in the article but perhaps with a Apple Thunderbolt connector to prevent them from having to support Windows PC users.

You can get e.g. a Dell PR02X (traditional docking station/port replicator) for $30 or less the last couple of years now that they aren't compatible with new models but they used to also be upwards of $100 new before that ~5 years ago. There was a similar price decrease story after the prior generation of proprietary dock was deprecated as well and you'd see the same thing if the current type-C USB/Thunderbolt docks were replaced with a new physical interface. Has nothing to do with the hardware design and everything to do with excess inventory of an old product.

There is no such thing as "Apple Thunderbolt" just "Thunderbolt". It was developed by Intel, Apple was involved early in development with Intel and first to market >10 years ago but that's it. Most Windows laptops come with Thunderbolt and both Dell/Lenovo offer Thunderbolt Docks just as much as USB-C docks. Being Thunderbolt or not has no impact on whether or not the dock will support Windows/Linux vs macOS.

And if one of the tiny wires breaks and causes a short, not only can you cause a fire but you also damage the connector in the laptop which can only be fixed by replacing the motherboard, which is more expensive than the laptop itself and not covered by warranty.

Yeah, I don't think I'd ever call it a perfect solution. FWIW though, I think most of the implementations I've seen leverage the preexisting I/O controllers on the laptop itself, which means the only added cost is whatever the proprietary docking connector costs on the BOM.

Totally agree. I keep a dock for my thinkpad t420 hooked up to 2 27" 1440p iMacs in target display mode. Pop it in, the imacs get my laptop's workspaces. I keep a dell laptop docked to my tv as a streaming box. Both of these setups give me no trouble, and all of these things were being thrown out by my university.

Technically they have one, it's built into the displays. Obviously it's not a great solution if you want to use your existing monitors.

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