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Comment by Freak_NL | Hacker News Reader

This is Europe. Credit card imprinters are rare if they were ever used at all. I've never seen one.

The most resilient back up (especially in the face of national crises) is cash of course, but a growing group of people have stopped carrying any cash at all, and a lot of people in power are doing their best to make sure a cashless future is nearer each day. I don't mind paying with a debit card; I just want to have a backup in place in an increasingly interconnected world where a glitch can take out any nationwide system.

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Even for a cash payment the register still needs to work for the payment to be... well, registered as a sale. You need to get a receipt with tax paid, and all that.

That's easily done with a writing pad with carbon paper between each sheet. You write the items, prices and tax, rip off one sheet to give to the customer and another sheet for the books. I checked, these seem to still be sold at office supply places, so there is no excuse.

Not sure about the Netherlands, but that's illegal in some parts. There are laws that sales MUST be recorded electronically.

Cash invoices will probably still work in most jurisdictions, to be recorded electronically after the fact. It's even more work than a handwritten receipt since the customer would have to be identified, not just what is being sold and for how much, so I wouldn't fault a merchant for taking out a service surcharge for it.

I'm in Europe too, and I have never seen an imprinter either, but I keep being issued cards with embossed numbers, so I figure they must be good for something, if not imprinting, what else?

I'm concerned about the phasing out of cash too as a separate issue, I just don't think the cashless options should have to be subject to artificial limitations like requiring electricity or a network connection to be able to be used. I guess online transactions with chip and pin are much more secure and should be the default, but retailers could keep a log of outages that they are required to submit along with the imprinted slips. They could be corroborated with the logs of the utility companies as well as other businesses in the area, and if something doesn't make sense it could trigger an audit.

Some EU countries don't issue credit/debit cards by default but they have their own system. The Netherlands is one of them. Such cards don't have embossing. You can get a MasterCard/Visa compatible card but it's not standard, though I believe this will change soon.

But of course the imprinting system is ancient and extremely prone to fraud. As is the magstripe. I wish we had a choice not to have the latter anymore. I'd gladly give up the ability to pay in places where magstripes are still used in return for more security against skimming. Here in Europe the magstripe is just not used anymore except for supporting foreign cards.

The Dutch debit cards are Maestro (Mastercard) or V Pay (Visa) cards which are a pretty standard systems. There is no point in embossing because transactions need to be authorized immediately by the issuing bank for obvious reasons.

They are pretty standard but not accepted where credit cards normally are. In particular Maestro, I'm not sure about V Pay as I've never had it.

But when I lived in the Netherlands I had to get a credit card to do stuff like book flights or order on foreign sites.

They are pretty non-standard as they don't display a number that can be used where credit card numbers are normally accepted (they do have such a number internally to work with the Maestro/V-Pay system).

My lastest debit card (issued last year) was the first one I got without embossed numbers. I guess retrocompatibility is no longer a priority. Not that it changes anything for me, virtually every shop has already phased out even the magstripes and use either chip cards or NFCs.

I like the embossing because it gives my thumb something to grip when I'm pulling the card out of my wallet.

I've seen an imprinter used in Germany I think, but that was more than 30 years ago.

Most credit or debit cards support offline transactions, so a shop can keep a battery powered terminal that reconciles when it comes online.

Imprinters don't exist in Europe to my knowledge - the first time I saw one was on a visit to NYC a few years ago and I thought they were pranking me.

There are a lot of different cultural practices in Europe, and unification is a slow process. I for one have seen many imprinters in use in Europe, although it has been years since I last saw one. An online terminal used to be significantly more expensive than an imprinter, so small shops would prefer the imprinter, especially in rural locations with bad connectivity.

My employer has (or had) one. They used it a couple of years ago when they sold some stuff to staff (old furniture etc).

The usual fraud risks don't really apply in this case. Other than that, it must be over 20 years since I saw my parents pay using one, and that was unusual enough that I remember it.

> Most credit or debit cards support offline transactions, so a shop can keep a battery powered terminal that reconciles when it comes online.

Almost....

Its been a while since I have been involved in POS payments, but IIRC there is a clear protocol which goes something like this:

     1. If the card machine is online and working, use that
     2. If the card machine is not working *AND* the business is willing to take on the risk, record an offline transaction for later reconciliation
     3. If the card machine is not working *AND* the business *IS NOT* willing to take on the risk, call bank $phone_number for manual transaction validation and record the validation code provided at the end of the call.

4. If the card machine is not working and your business requires automated immediate finalisation of payment, refuse all cards altogether

My one and only chance to use a card imprinter was on a train from London to York. It was the first time that I realized why the embossing exist

I am in Europe as well, but I am probably older than you, so I actually have seen the imprinters in Denmark.

However, that was probably 20+ years ago. :)

Same in Norway. I used to go out for beers to this one bar that had an imprinter when my bank account were empty in the early 2000s. good times.

UK too, which is arguably still part of Europe. I remember them being used at less professionally organised events (street parties, church outings etc.).

We had one at work as well 15 years ago as part of a contingency strategy in case of a power outage, but don't remember it ever being used. I left retail so no idea if they still have it.

We did have them in the 1990s. But my most recent debit card is no longer embossed

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