Bucha Massacre
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
https://rumble.com/vzj5jh-ukraine-mariupol-residents-speak-a...
Sad how you still haven't learned after Russia repeatedly lied to you about how it wasn't going to invade Ukraine.
"Mayor Anatoly Fedoruk, "hundreds of Russian soldiers" were also among the bodies" - so you will also expect hundreds of dead Ukrainians who fought to be buried in the mass grave. That is not a "massacre", that would be war.
We know the media constantly lies about mass graves and what they are, see the Canadian schools or New York and Hart Island.
What they do seem to have evidence of is very bad for Russia. So Russia lost control of the troops in the area. It should have not happened or should have been cleaned up. So far Russia seems to have structurally failed everywhere, so I'd expect more of this.
There seems to be no evidence Chechens were in the area. That would be an alternate explanation of why Russia couldn't control these troops.
"The deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime in and of itself, every day of the week. So unless somebody can provide a military logic why civilians are targeted, that is a straight war crime. Civilians who appear to have had their hands tied behind their back and were shot. There’s no strategic rationale for that whatsoever."
As to the response from Russia to the accusations, Clarke said:
"They always deny it. The Russia deny everything like this. They go through three phases. First of all, they deny everything. And then they try to obfuscate, they create stuff on social media, which indicates 'Oh it’s all very complicated and this was going on at the time, and that was going on, and no simple answers are possible'.
And then a couple of years later, they often admit it and they say yes, yes, we did do this or we did do that, but you do the same. And they point to some sort of moral equivalence in the West.
They did it over the poisoning of Litvinenko in 2006 and Skripal in 2018. They did it over the bringing down of the civilian airliner over Ukraine. They always deny it. They always do. And nobody believes them. That’s the point."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/apr/04/russia-uk...
For anyone interested in what Michael Clarke actually said rather than this misrepresentation, it was interesting, video -
Again, an independent investigation is what we must ask for.
There are multiple independent reports of the Russian army committing war crimes: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-cri...
Ukraine’s Got a Real Problem with Far-Right Violence https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s...
Responses are simple. 1) How's that relevant at all right now? 2) ...in areas that were under Russian occupation for weeks and only recently liberated, okay. Also, why stage atrocities when Russia isn't even hiding the fact that it's committing constant atrocities? 3) Unconvincing and unverified. Nazis are everywhere. Russia has an FSB commander with the SS bars tatted on his neck and their whole playbook in this war is Fascism 101. Ukraine's 6 biggest uber-far-right factions came together in the last election and got a whopping <2% of the vote. Whoop-de-f*#king doo. Tell that to folks with active KKK movements in their states.
Ukrainian nationalists committed massacres in Odessa: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o...
Their national hero: https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-ukrainian-national...
"Stepan Bandera led Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which fought alongside Nazi Germany during WWII, killing thousands of Jews and Poles"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Jews
That's their national hero. Unverified, with only 50,000 monuments and streets named after a literal Nazi.
Obviously only angels live in that country.
sigh The Bandera argument. I lived in East Ukraine for several years and they're not all hoo rah rah about Bandera at all, so I don't buy the "all Ukrainians worship Bandera THEREFORE they're all Nazis" argument. It's lazy, frankly.
Bandera also spent most of WWII in prison, by the way.
The Israel Times "article" is a poorly researched blurb, not an article. It also says that Ukraine started an armed conflict with Russia in 2014, which is a very Putin-esque take on what the rest of the world sees as an unlawful annexation of sovereign Ukrainian territory.
Was Bandera a hardcore Ukrainian nationalist? Yeah. Remember that Wikipedia article you're citing to me?:
"Ukrainian nationalism did not historically include antisemitism as a core aspect of its program and saw Russians as well as Poles as the chief enemy with Jews playing a secondary role."
Does that mean people in WWII were angels? No. Is history much more nuanced than you're making it out to be? Yes.
Also, not sure where you're getting that 50,000 number from at all.
What you are doing here is called "ignoratio elenchi" or "a strawman argument", and it is truly lazy. No one has ever made an argument that "all Ukrainians are Nazis".
On the other hand, a huge portion of evidence used as a base to claim that current post-coup Ukrainian government is in bed with neo-Nazis, is confirmed and acknowledged by institutions all over the globe and all around the sides of this particular conflict.
Including the United States and Western media, for whom acknowledging support for neo-Nazis wouldn't be politically favorable.
Ottawa Citizen - Canadian Troops training Nazis and War Criminals https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/allega...
Newsweek - Ukrainian Nationalist Volunteers Committing 'ISIS-Style' War Crimes https://www.newsweek.com/evidence-war-crimes-committed-ukrai...
Reuters - Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/...
The Nation - Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/neo-nazis-far-righ...
Foreign Policy - The Historian Whitewashing Ukraine’s Past https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewash...
The Times of Israel - Netanyahu meets with head of Ukrainian party that includes neo-Nazis https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-meets-with-head-of-u...
The Times of Israel - Call for Ukrainian priests to stop glorifying Nazis https://www.timesofisrael.com/call-for-ukrainian-priests-to-...
Al Jazeera - Attacked and abandoned: Ukraine’s forgotten Roma https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/11/23/attacked-and-a...
Haaretz - The Upcoming neo-Nazi Concert in Ukraine That No One Is Talking About https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-the-upcom...
The Hill - The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda https://thehill.com/opinion/international/359609-the-reality...
The west shook hands with Nazi defence ministers and sent them weapons.
That’s a good thing, right?
Also, on your first point, considering that many atrocities in the Middle East are ongoing, it is highly relevant. When the West has shown that it doesn't give a crap about war crimes in the Middle East/South America which it is complicit in, then why should they give a crap about war crimes in Europe?
I mean, "doesn't give a crap" is kind of a hard sell, although I understand the uselessness of rhetoric when it comes to horrible sh*t like chemical weapons in Syria, ISIS publicly beheading people, etc. What war crimes in South America has the West been complicit in recently, by the way?
Funny how you leave out the crimes committed by the U.S. and its allies in the Middle East, how are chemical weapons in Syria and ISIS relevant to my point? Why didn't you mention the mass killings of civilians carried out by the U.S. in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan which the U.S. never accounts for (and when it does it basically says "oops, it was an accident, but not our fault". The mass sale of weapons by the U.S./UK to Saudi Arabia in atrocities in Yemen? Bringing back slave markets to Libya? Mass starvation of Afghanistan by witholding money which belongs to them by the U.S.? Mass murder of Iranians via sanctions by the U.S. for ripping up its own deal? I haven't even mentioned the horrendous amount of hypocrisy on the Israel/Palestine issue.
With respect to South America, perhaps those crimes are older, but they are still within memory. Support for Pinochet and the UK refusing to prosecute him for his crimes (of course, with the explicit support of the U.S.)? The countless interventions by the U.S. in South America over the last 50 years (funny how no one said anything about the U.S. not being allowed to have a sphere of influence back then)? Ongoing right now...mass murder via sanctions on Venezuela and Cuba for daring to exercise their own sovereignty?
The West is so hypocritical that the rest of the world (unfortunately) does not care about Ukraine. It is not the Ukrainians' fault, but frankly countries like China and India are not going to commit economic suicide by refusing to purchase Russian oil/gas, when they know the U.S. and its client states commit war crimes all over the world that are just as bad as what is going on in Ukraine and turn a blind eye to their own crimes.