Covid spike protein induces cognitive deficit and anxiety-like behavior in mice | Hacker News Reader

Covid spike protein induces cognitive deficit and anxiety-like behavior in mice

nature.com

59 pointsIdEntities87 comments

> Eight-week-old mice were used for the spike protein injections. S1 protein was purchased from Acrobiosystems (Cat #S1N-C52H4, Newark, DE, USA), and used after polymixin B (Cat #P1004, Sigma-Aldrich, St. Louis, MO, USA) treatment (30 µg/ml). The animals were anesthetized with isoflurane, and the injection paths were drilled into their skulls. Then, 5 µg of S1 protein (1 µg/µl) were bilaterally injected into each hippocampal region using a Hamilton syringe (Cat #80330, Hamilton Company, Reno, NV, USA) attached to a syringe pump (Cat #53311, Stoelting Co., Wood Dale, IL, USA) at a constant volume of 0.5 µl/min.

I think we can all agree that injecting huge amounts of viral protein into your brain is not recommended.

This study did not include a control group which received non-spike protein viral antigens (from say influenza which is also known to cause neurocognitive problems). As such it does not prove any specific neurotoxic effect of Covid19. The mechanistic studies in the paper suggest it is non-specific inflammation which causes neuronal cell death.

It took me a little over a year to feel back to normal. That’s cognitive function and reduced anxiety. It introduced depression and anxiety to my life that I never had prior. I’ve had to learn to cope with this and sought solutions every new day. What helped me most was exercise, little to no mainstream news or social media, and getting clearer on my purpose of life. It was a very rough 14 months, but I got through it and feel back to normal.

how much of this could be attributed to the world events surrounding Covid and basically correlation vs causation? There have been studies that the majority of people claiming "long covid" when tested have never actually been infected. Most of the symptoms described could be depression due to being locked in your home and your normal lifestyle disrupted for nearly 3 years now. Plus general anxiety from the negativity of the news in general creating constant doom and gloom

even this study is somewhat suspect to me, they injected spike protein directly into the mouse's brain rather than using a natural infection. There's only a single study saying Covid can cross the blood brain barrier, so I'm not sure this methodology translates to real world infection

I used to think long covid was total bullshit. Now here I am with tinnitus for 3 months after a pretty mild case. Probably it’s best just to trust people about their own experience, if this pandemic has shown us anything it’s that nobody knows anything. No masks! Wait, wear masks! Surfaces are the problem! Nevermind on surfaces! Close playgrounds! Wait, outdoors is where we should be! — and all this from the professionals.

You can easily estimate precautions from first principles, knowing that the Covid virus is ~100nm in size, a human cell is ~100um in size - so Covid is 1000x smaller. These things are expelled in water vapor from breath (masks), and water as spit (surfaces). They "gum up the works" of other cells, because they are so small.

The first advice to avoid masks was purely to avoid impacting the PPE needs of frontline workers. So you could have ignored that. As for surfaces, it seems dumb to wash your groceries, but it seems smart to, I don't know, not eat from a salad bar that lets all the customers exhale on the food (this is gross pre-covid).

People taking precautions outside was always dumb. The concentration of virus scales as r^3, in general. Plus, UV destroys them.

Playgrounds are a mixed bag, because kids are adorable, but gross. They are constantly touching each other and their own nose, mouth and so on. OTOH they have good resistance AND its really really important to socialize young kids, or they don't get socialized. I respect going either way (I picked "allow").

Its tough to see so much angst about Covid, and the messaging has been terrible. Hardly anyone explains the why of any guideline, so you can't really decide for yourself. So, like any good physicist, I applied first-principles and so far have only caught it once! (It was post Pfizer vaccine, and quite mild).

You are denying lived experience of a person that was injured by the disease? Do you also lecture people in wheelchairs to stop feigning their unproven "illness", until they a 4 volume rebuttal, starting from the Krebs cycle, and finally convinced you their legs actually do not work?

the original covid is conclusively known to impair your sense of smell, sometimes total anosmia. Sometimes total anosmia for life, but luckily that seems rare.

Blood brain barrier? The olfactory bulb in your nose does NOT have the blood brain barrier. But you didn't know that, did you? Remember this next time when you are going swimming.

Never been infected? That would require lymphocyte testing, and none of those tests have been clinically validated, and never will be. no money in that, and original strains no longer circulate.

Do you have any biology training aside from mandatory high school curriculum?

You don't have to deny lived experience to have doubts about the effects of Covid. Anxiety can cause all sorts of issues that are truly debilitating.

If you still have doubts after two years of pathology report after report of lymphocyte infiltration in the brain - you too, may also have lymphocyte infiltration in your own brain.

"43 patients were included in our study. Patients died in hospitals, nursing homes, or at home, and were aged between 51 years and 94 years (median 76 years [IQR 70-86]). We detected fresh territorial ischaemic lesions in six (14%) patients. 37 (86%) patients had astrogliosis in all assessed regions. Activation of microglia and infiltration by cytotoxic T lymphocytes was most pronounced in the brainstem and cerebellum, and meningeal cytotoxic T lymphocyte infiltration was seen in 34 (79%) patients. SARS-CoV-2 could be detected in the brains of 21 (53%) of 40 examined patients, with SARS-CoV-2 viral proteins found in cranial nerves originating from the lower brainstem and in isolated cells of the brainstem."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33031735/

It's astounding how seemingly most people just jump to "oh its in your head, just some anxiety". A fairly nasty virus, that causes severe disease that literally kills people even. Penetrates into the brain, cranial nerves, spinal fluid. Causes peripheral neuropathies, palsies, paralysis.

..but no, let's just ignore all that and jump straight to "it's all in your head"

I used to think the same way as you until I got it pre-vaccine. When you get it and there’s no treatment available, you glue yourself into the current events for hope. Yes all of this begets more anxiety because of all of the misinformation and disinformation out in the world. I had to shut up the world and do my own thing to recover.

For what it’s worth I had antibodies doing a blood test multiple months after suspected infection.

My first thought as well. I never caught covid but social isolation definitely induced anxiety and cognitive deficit in me.

What if it was caused by both?

I'm in your shoes, and pondering this very question.

It is both.

Social isolation does cause depression and anxiety, as social interaction is a very well proven anti-depressant.

Covid is also known to destroy your sense of smell. The olfactory bulb. which is neural tissue in your nose, goes right into your brain, and has no protection from blood brain barrier...because it doesn't have it.

Covid is neurotoxic. Isolation does cause depression. Both are true.

"SARS-CoV-2 attacks olfactory mucosae but spares the olfactory bulb": https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(21)01282-4.pdf

That doesn't mean the brain is spared. Covid does get into the brain, and CNS positivity is correlated with olfactory mucosa positivity. Something we've known since autopsy report after autopsy report since 2020. Two years now.

Fig 1b, 1c. Fig 5.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-020-00758-5

"Presence of intact CoV particles together with SARS-CoV-2 RNA in the olfactory mucosa, as well as in neuroanatomical areas receiving olfactory tract projections"

Are there any tips for getting into exercise or any other approaches you can recommend? I'm coming up to the 1 year anniversary of a covid infection and even though I don't have any physical symptoms, the last 12 months have been a constant fight with burnout and depression that, similar to you, I have not experienced before.

Therapy has been tremendously helpful, but more as a coping mechanism - I have not been able to get back to "normal" yet.

If you're up to trying some supplementation, after my Delta infection in October I took a PQQ-CoQ10-glutathione-NAC combo that my local store recommended, along with some straight NAC, and my lingering fatigue cleared up about a week after the illness had abated. There are lots of other long COVID recovery protocols out there which are pretty easy to find -- who knows how much of it is snake oil, but as long as what is recommended is safe, possibly taking some placebos is a minor risk to run for a chance at some relief IMO.

Start small in anything you pursue and gradually improve each day. If running, start with walking. If weight lifting, start with the bar. Do something that grounds you and challenges you at the same time so you stick with it.

Over here, too! I feel like I've had a lobotomy and even after the other symptoms were gone, I have been sleeping an extra 6h a day. I feel like I need a little nap and wake up 3h later.

> I feel like I've had a lobotomy

I have been feeling like this for years. But I do know there was a time where I didn‘t feel like that. I wonder if anxiety, an unknown past (viral?) illness, past medication (Isotretinoin, SSRI?) or something else is at fault.

Consider looking at autoimmune if you have weird issues. Took me 20 years of vague symptoms to get diagnosed.

Should I just go to an endocrinologist and tell them I feel like shit?

From my experience it‘s pointless to visit any doctor without a serious, clear problem.

A Rumatologist. endocrinologist Is also a good idea.

Make a list of every symptom you have. Get some lab work done. See if there is any outliers.

My ANA was off. 1:640 speckled. Doctors kept telling me to ignore it. It ended up being a major clue to keep pushing for more and more testing.

You will absolutely be gaslit by doctors at every step of the way. Gotta keep pushing and learning. Join the support forms for chronic illness in Reddit and Facebook.

Eventually you’ll see people that are suffering the exact same symptom that you are. They can guide you on what has to take to confirm a rule out various ideas

Alright, I will check out my ANA.

My general bloodworks, liver, kidney and c-reactive protein are usually completely normal.

The thing is, I do suffer from medium to severe anxiety and have trouble sleeping. Those things could be the source of me feeling bad.

I too have become a nap fiend since a bout with covid last year. I can't get through a working day without one now. (I do extend the day afterwards, if anyone is wondering)

I also noticed my needs for sleep went up

We still have a lot to learn from this plague.

Long Covid is turning out to be subtle and pernicious. I would not be surprised to learn that lots of illnesses have long-term complications that have gone unnoticed.

Reminds me of the study that said long COVID symptoms were strongest in people who thought they had COVID but never actually got it.

Some areas of science experience a lot of swirl. Eggs are good for you on Tuesday and bad for you on Thursday.

something like 80%+ covid deaths were co-morbid with obesity. this idea that everyone is susceptible to long covid or permanent outcomes is garbage

It's a good thing that the risk of becoming obese can be reduced dramatically by two free vaccinations a year, then.

(Also, your second claim does not follow from the first.)

https://hnrankings.info/30901029/

dropped from 4 to 33 between 23:00 and 23:05

what does that mean?

And that's part of why it's best to stay as far away from this virus and its nasty little bits as possible, no matter its method of entering the body.

Unless you go live on a deserted island somewhere or dee in the woods away from civilization for the next 50 years that’s not realistic at all.

> deep in the woods

Then the deer with Covid will get you!

foiled again!

What about the proteins the mrna and vector vaccines turn your cells into factories for, at various locations in your body, for a various amount of time?

Is there a difference?

The vaccine is a measured, limited, non-self-replicating dose of spike protein RNA which your cells fold into spike protein. Nearly all of it ends up in the lymph nodes near your armpit, where your immune system learns how to destroy it (and then does).

A COVID infection is a self-replicating, theoretically unlimited dose of spike protein RNA which your cells fold into spike protein. If you’re lucky, it’ll mostly affect your respiratory system. But if your immune system can’t respond quickly enough, it will spread and replicate all over your body.

> Nearly all of it ends up in the lymph nodes near your armpit

Not sure how the situation is in other countries but in Germany they started recommending aspiration (used to make sure no blood vessel is hit) a few months ago due to concerns of the mRNA getting into your blood stream and causing adverse effects like that.

From my understanding, you want it in the lymph system (hence muscular injection). It is believed that issues like myocarditis are where the injection might hit a vein.

Nearly all of it ends up in the lymph nodes near your armpit

Source needed.

Thank you for such a clear and succinct explanation!

It's the same thing, the main difference is that those cells only work that way for a few days, while with an infection, they work that way until the infection clears.

There's one important difference: not everybody who's exposed to SARS-CoV2 will become infected and replicate a large amount of viral proteins. But everybody injected with mRNA will become a spike protein factory.

The vaccine also doesn't lead to a large amount of viral proteins

That's the spike protein

The title refers to the spike protein

Oooh that must be what that mrna vaccines tell our cells to make, ey?

Does the same happen to humans?

Does that kind of damage heal in the majority of humans?

How long does healing usually take?

Good thing I'm not a mouse

You are both mammals.

better late than never i guess .

There's such a range of bizarre opinions and hot takes about anything Covid related that it's impossible to even guess what point you're trying to make.

He's had a lifelong feud with the lab mouse population and is happy about every blow we can deal to them.

Having read Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy I am not sure I would ever be against mice.

New alert. Research causes cancer. In mice.

Our entire family was sick and it crushed us for 2-3 weeks. This description sounds like it applies to us too. I take anxiety medicine and it’s like it completely stopped working. Yet none of us tested positive for COVID.

I don’t know what that means. It could mean we had COVID but the tests were wrong. It could mean we didn’t have COVID but the flu had similar impact.

Just have no idea what to think about anything anymore.

Edit: downvote away. This is my literal life as it occurred. I’m not making a political statement I have absolutely no idea what to make of it.

>Yet none of us tested positive for COVID.

It sounds mostly like you all got a nasty flu.

That has been my assumption. Part of the family had also already had COVID. They said this was much worse than COVID, which I would assume is because we are all vaccinated and it was most likely the milder Omnicron variant.

Not skipping the flu vaccine next year! Although I think this years vaccine was rather weak unfortunately.

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