Not alone, but not in the majority I suspect.
I touch maybe $100 in actual cash a year. Mostly for like a random garage sale or two. The less I touch the better.
I touch maybe $100 in actual cash a year. Mostly for like a random garage sale or two. The less I touch the better.
Health insurance companies start buying your purchasing info and decide to up your premiums due to the amount of alcohol you buy, fast food you purchase, or your grocery shopping habits? Do you eat too much red meat, too many carbs, not enough greens? Is your sugar intake put you at a higher risk for diabetes? How may cigars/cigarettes are you smoking? What about marijuana use, or over the counter drugs?
Home owners insurance: What if your shopping data shows risky patterns or behaviors - do you or spouse buy too many candles, is your home at a greater risk for fire hazard?
Law Enforcement: How much ammo do you purchase? Are you frequently buying guns? Are you an active shooter risk? Are you spending too much at strip clubs? Are you spending too much money in high risk neighborhoods?
Obviously these are all just examples, but don't think for a second that they don't already have most of this data, and can brainstorm many other use cases for it, honestly we are just living on borrow time at the moment before it gets unbearable.
A huge amount of middle and upper class people already voluntarily use cashless methods to spend & earn money. A huge amount of businesses are basically online-only and don't really support cash payments. Visa & Mastercard etc already engage in data sharing. Cash is just too inconvenient and will slowly recede over time, if you want to avoid discriminatory outcomes then advocate for legislation directly.
It might be inconvenient for some things (e.g., online purchases, buying houses or cars), but buying something at the store has worked very well for centuries; it's quick and easy. People on HN can't figure out cash?
Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience.
If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient.
Negative side effects of using cash also include having to carry a bulging wallet when I'm constantly trying to minimize the stuff I have to carry.
Side effects of using credit card is that all my transactions are tracked, but the side effect of that side effect is that I know exactly what I'm spending where. And no, I'd rather not do a manual bookkeeping routine, which is what I'd have to do if I used cash.
Yes, there is the side effect that third party entities might also know what my transactions are, but I simply don't care. Maybe there is some far off scenario in the future where it can be used against me, but I view worrying about that remote possibility as premature optimization. I have far greater things to worry about.
I understand the benefits of using cash even if I don't find those benefits valuable for myself personally. But I don't understand how someone can find using cash more convenient than swiping a credit card.
> If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient.
Where do you keep your credit card, in your hand at all times? How long does the cash exchange take? Moments, in my experience.
> there is the side effect that third party entities might also know what my transactions are, but I simply don't care.
What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people?
In my ultraslim card wallet, where other than my driver's license, it is the only occupant. Meanwhile my wife, who loves carrying/using cash, has a wallet that is enormous. She carries a purse, so it is less of an issue for her.
Plus these days, especially when I'm not driving, I find myself not even carrying that wallet - just my phone, via which I can pay via Apple Pay. Doesn't cover every single payment scenario, but it does cover enough - and increasingly, more.
> What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people?
See my comment earlier about premature optimization. Maybe I'd feel different if I lived in China or some other authoritarian country, but as it stands today in the United States, I am not worried about this at all, nor in the foreseeable future.
Why the need for hyperbole? Plenty of people have used cash for generations without enormous wallets; there just isn't that much volume to some cash. It's not that hard to use.
>> What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people?
> as it stands today in the United States, I am not worried about this at all, nor in the foreseeable future.
There might be more going on in the US than you think. Look at what happens to immigrants, Muslims (esp. during the GWOT), people who challenge government authority, political opposition, etc. The prior president actively solicted intelligence on political opposition and repeatedly threatened to jail them. Today, here's an article I just read:
https://www.justsecurity.org/80813/mayorkas-must-rein-in-hom...
If we give the tools of oppression to government, and they start using them, how will you stop them? What will stop them?
Sometimes, I forget my wallet at home (not good, if I’m driving), but still have no problem buying something for hundreds of dollars.
I often have no cash on me; which can be a problem, from time to time.
If I use a credit card, we have to go for a walk to the back office and wait for an old and creaky point-of-sale machine to navigate a slow network connection.
And then they pocket the money and never give you a receipt, right? You do know what that's called? =)
You're comparing the worst-case of cash to best-case of a credit card.
For a single transaction, is it even possible to make a transaction with a credit card when: - The chip/card reader fails? - The network connection is down? - There's a power outage?
It's not just inconvenient; in some cases, the transaction is impossible.
Let's extend this to monthly time lost over a day or a month. Here's what I lose with credit cards strictly from a convenience perspective and with common edge and use cases: - For daily budgeting, I have to mentally keep of my credit card transactions; or go into an app. That's time wasted. - I have to review each purchase on a daily and monthly basis, to make sure I'm not hit with fraudulent charges. It's not enough to get notified by SMS or app. - We have to consolidate our monthly expenses, to make sure we're not going over our monthly budget. - If there's a fraudulent charge, I now have to contact the credit card and dispute the charges. - If the credit card helpfully decides to up the limit, I have to cheerfully tell them to decrease it; in order to minimize the damage.
In the case of a stolen wallet with cash, what I lose is what I withdrew. There's a very simple and hard ceiling to the loss.
There is one group for which cashless is far more convenient: Big-company merchants and businesses.
Cashless-only is terrible for everyone else.
I use cards for 99% of my payments. For me, this simply hasn't been an issue in actual reality. In fact, I've had far more issues getting cash into and out of the handful of ATMs in my area that work with my credit union.
I keep about $100 in each car and $1000 in my house in case I find I desperately need cash. The car money comes in handy sometimes if there's a cash discount for gas or I drive someplace and realize I've forgotten my wallet.
The gas stations would have never had any credit card uptake without it and people have to buy gas and are extremely price sensitive so would have continued shopping at cash only gas stations.
Unlike say a clothing store where the convenience of credit overcomes the price sensitivity, you can defer the purchase and the merchant has higher margins.
How would using cash would be an effective way of denying the gas station's staff a proper wage? I suspect most gas station staff is hourly, rather than... I dunno, tipped or commission.
Cash could certainly be a way of avoiding some taxes.
Imprint machines still exist, and maybe half of my cards still have raised numbers. If all else fails, the merchant may be willing to write down name, phone number, and amount and either ask the customer to come by later to make it right (and call if not) or write the card number down to run the charge later and call to confirm, etc. There's ways to get network redundancy and power redundancy, if it's of value to the merchant.
Sometimes the merchant doesn't have the right change for cash (or would prefer not to take a large bill), or may not be able to open the register if power is unavailable (usually there's a key, but it might not be onsite).
You don't need to review charges on a daily basis, monthly is sufficent to keep your rights (at least in the US)
Power outages are indeed an issue, especially when the business is in a small town or rural community with a flakier power grid.
Where I work, when the power is out, we rely on cash or writing down the customer's name and amount they owe, and add that to their account when the power's back.
In the power outage situation, the merchant won't be able to handle any transactions and they may not be able to legally open their doors even if they could. I don't think I've ever encountered the other two scenarios ever. I would imagine that CC payment systems have resiliency for a network failure and most businesses have at least two card/chip reader terminals for transactions.
Chip readers fail to read all the time; One failure, reinsert, try again.
Connection from the reader to CC service outages also occur.
I run into this a few times a year.
I’ve also had to change my credit card number a few times due to number theft (self-service gas station).
So many points of failure and headaches.
I still use my credit card a lot to build and maintain my credit history; convenience in physical stores isn’t one of them.
Anyway, not trying to change your mind (pay with checks and bottle caps for all I care), but you seemed suspicious in some of your responses and I thought it might be helpful to share that perspective. I would also be suspicious if it sounded like people were recommending something that I personally knew to be a consistent frustration.
So I’m not sure why you think it’s suspicion or a disconnect of myself versus everyone else (it’s not).
I’ve just consolidated the edgecases for a topic that frequently comes up again and again: That is, cash is a pain; electronic/credit-only is great.
They can handle cash transactions just fine, that's the beauty of cash. It is entirely self-contained.
Having lived in areas where power goes out often, that's the norm. Cash only while there is no power.
Even here, California, every so often various local convenience stores become cash-only for the day whenever their network connection is down.
That is actually a common annoyance here in Germany, where bakeries will complain or even refuse a sale if you try to pay with a "too large" bill, e.g. 20 for 4.50.
yep. for all three, they write down your cc number
First off, not having exact change is the typical scenario, not an outlier.
Second, there are much worse cases. Getting mugged outside the store, for one. The store not being able to make change, for another.
Regardless, the scenarios described by parent were the typical, most common scenarios.
I was responding to the very narrow use-case of already being at the register and starting to pay, in order to keep the objections relevant.
As you widen the scope to all the negative possibilities and edge-cases, credit cards and electronic payment has more negatives; and I say this as someone who almost exclusively does transactions with credit cards because it's indeed convenient 99% of the time.
But that 1% is what can get a person in real trouble, if they find themselves cashless.
Such intensity!
So, if I decide to get cash, I have to decide in advance. Or I’m at risk of paying 5% to get my own $100 out of my bank. Or, I can pay with a card for $0 for unlimited transactions.
When I look at that cost attached to cash, I’m reminded of research about how spending digital doesn’t impact people the same way as spending cash. At the risk of sounding conspiratorial, do you think this might be a marketing campaign?
Obviously I don’t know, but if I knew people spent more on cards than with cash, and if consumer debt made me rich, I’d do everything I could to convince people to use cards.
Edit - I think this is the first time I’ve ever gone on a “when I was young, things were cheaper and better” rant. Aging beats the alternative but that’s the only good thing about it. :)
But isn't that actually pretty comparable? You don't see the few percent extra you're paying with the credit card because it gets hidden in the price. It's probably not all that different than what you're paying to get cash from an out-of-network ATM (I just get cash back at POS).
To be fair, usually the cash buyer also gets screwed into paying for the convenience of everyone else using credit cards. For a while that was actually written into the merchant agreement, to favor credit card usage and ensure hefty profits for Visa & MC.
I don't know how high it is. I've seen various numbers thrown around but it's hard to tell what's accurate and what's not. What is clear, however, is that the cost is non-zero.
If we split the difference (30 minutes) and factor in my big hourly wage ($7 an hour), it’s at around $3.50 a business day per location. That’s not huge money, but still works out to close to $1,300 a year for one location. Multiple that by a few million and it’s a serious cost.
Great comment.
(This is very pedantic.)
When I pay with a card, I actually have a couple of options. We use the terms ‘debit’ and ‘credit’. I can pull out a credit card and pay for something with someone else’s money. Or pull out a debit card and pay with my own. Debit comes directly out of my bank account and they’re physically different cards, with different chips, PIN numbers etc.
The experiences are identical for me, but dramatically different for poor merchants. The cards are almost identical, but if I use my credit card the merchant gets toasted. If I use my debit card, they’re only lightly browned.
So, long story short but you’re right. It’s the same. I don’t notice because merchants have to pass on the cost.
Thanks friend - this was interesting.
That's borderline criminal. Look for a better bank, there's no reason to be hit with such fees.
I have accounts at four banks and none of them charge me fees for getting cash out of a different banks ATM. The ATM will show a default message that it is charging a fee, but it never actually gets charged.
I believe there is some limit to how many withdrawals a month they'll do for free, but I've never reached it (and I mostly use cash for privacy).
You’re 100% right that I need a new bank. I spent more than an hour on the phone this morning with them and by the end, cryptocurrency was looking pretty good…
I’m going to do an experiment and actually take cash out of some different banks’ machines then check my account and see how much I actually paid. That’s a neat idea - if I don’t actually get charged the fees, that completely changes the game.
Thanks again - I enjoyed that a lot!!
>
> Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience.
Why not? I’ve worked in jobs in my life where I dealt with cash, had to count a register down to the last coin, check receipts, do cash runs to a bank and give the correct change. I even received cash tips.
I choose not to use cash because it would require me to go out of my way to an ATM and use it, then keep track of the amount of cash I have on me and make subsequent trips to the ATM as necessary. I could, and I used to do that, but it’s not something I did because I enjoyed my trips to the ATM. I did it so I could get a medium of exchange for my daily necessities, and now I don’t do that.
I agree though that cash handling is more of a hassle for the ones accepting cash than for the ones paying with it, and that's probably one of the drivers in getting rid of it...
That works in Germany but not in the US. Euro bills are easy to distinguish by color and size and start at 5. With dollars you have a stack of greenish paper, many of which are $1 bills. Manageable, but definitely more inconvenient than Euros.
They do this in lots of other countries too (UK, AU, NZ to name a few).
Doesn’t work for me anymore as I shop online, including groceries.
I pay for almost all of my expenses with a credit card though, which does not give me the option to withdraw cash, so yes I would have to go out of my way still. It does however give me 5% back at the grocery store in points redeemable for cash at the end of the statement period, so for every $100 I’m spending I’m getting $5 back at the end of the month. Neat for things I was going to buy anyway, like food.
This also has the added benefit of never having to give out my debit card # to anyone. I would much rather deal with CC fraud than debit card fraud.
I’m with you. Australia had been on this trajectory for a while and it accelerated in the early days of the pandemic. It’s incredibly convenient to _never_ have to plan ahead with how much cash I need to have, how much I need to withdrawal from the bank/while at the supermarket, if I need to make a special trip to either because I’m short for whatever my plans are later. I can leave my house with just my iPhone or Garmin watch and I know I’m covered for whatever my plans are. Even if that ends up being an evening of unexpected plans. It’s been a couple of years since I’ve needed to have cash on me at this point.
People that haven’t experienced it seem unconvinced. Those that have don’t need convincing.
Cashless seems more important to benefit merchants than buyers
I'm talking about customers, not merchants. It's interesting how enthusiastically some on HN push cashlessness, as if they have some vested interest. Why is it so important.
> it would require me to go out of my way to an ATM
Or stop when you pass one for a couple minutes. Which saves some time paying credit card bills and dealing with fraud alerts, etc.
Win for cashless. (I’m not anti-cash but I certainly favour using cashless options wherever possible. Safer, plus you get loyalty points and in the UK there is no cash discount price so if you aren’t getting loyalty points on your card you are throwing money away / paying a premium for the privacy of cash)
It’s not important to me, but I did take exception to your rhetoric:
1. That people on HN can’t figure out cash.
2. That it can’t just be about convenience. (This also just sounds conspiratorial.)
I have no vested interest in telling people not to use cash because I don’t spend my time telling people not to use cash. I no longer work in jobs where I have to handle it either, but what you have up there is an explanation as to why one person out in meatspace would just go cashless, and I don’t think I’m the exception here.
Apple Pay (and it’s related services) is just such a massive QoL improvement for those who choose to adopt it that for most that try it (I know at least one person that doesn’t like it), it does not take much convincing. I recently had the strange experience of my own mother thanking me for setting her phone up to use Apple Pay for her cards when previously she was against it (doesn’t trust new technology, thinks it’s spying on her, probably wouldn’t have the phone if I didn’t buy it and put her on my plan).
I dunno. Feels like an electric kettle. I didn't forget how to boil water on the stove but pressing a button is more convenient and now I cannot forget to turn a heating element off.
There's no argument or reason here, just an emotional outlet. I start to think there is no reason ...
> I did take exception to your rhetoric
This is really intense!
> Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience.
I feel like using the phase "figure out" and then saying it's not about convenience is directly contradictory. I can't think of any way where handing someone my plastic index card, swiping it through a machine, and returning it is ever less convenient than shuffling through cash, counting it, handing It over, having the other person count it, calculate change, count change, and hand over various paper bills and coins that I don't want to be carrying.
I carry some cash, but the only times I ever use it is for tipping and vending machines.
And, the key bit is ensuring it's a short term equation, so people don't evaluate the long term risk or implications.
People just never consider that they might be in a future situation where their convenience choices could be used against them in a troubling way. And they just plain don't care (as evident in the comments here) about those it impacts negatively now
Do you just shove a $20 to the cashier and go "keep the change"? Or do you start to dig around for that elusive 5c coin from the bottom of your wallet?
In not-US I can just shove my watch/phone/card at the reader and it's done. Exact change, no fuss.
Try it - it takes a minute. Really! I've never seen so many people become suddenly incompetent.
Someone might very well kill me for my cash.
Or, possibly, threaten to kill me for my cash, and actually kill me so I couldn't identify them later.
If they see I don't have cash, the odds of that might well go down. Worth a shot.
Why risk it?
How many employers have used data on candidate salaries in violation of the law in California? How would we ever know?
There are many benefits of using cash: it's very secure, as long as I'm sensible. It's anonymous. It costs those that I do business with less to maintain (Visa charges 2%. 2 percent! of revenue!). People who I tip like me more because I tip in cash. Businesses I do business with like me more because I give them cash. Not to mention, I can do business with anyone I want if I deal with cash -- not so with electronic services.
Look to the case of Germany for why cash is so important.
The moment a politician was affected by this data collection in a negative way, it would probably become illegal.
Hell, it's illegally nationally to share someone's video rental history because a politician got screwed out of being a Supreme Court justice when their video rental history was released.
If you ask why, they'll say it's for the 'greater good' . They actually want it to happen. As it forms a new social hierarchy of obidence which may, one day, outrank the social hiarchy of evil capitalism.
In fact, they'll go as far as discrediting and attacking you for even suggesting what you said. As that's against the greater good (saving environment, war efforts, meat is bad, etc) and ironically, attacking demonstrates true obedience.
I guess if I did more illegal activities maybe I would care?
If abortion suddenly stops being federally legal, every Texan who has an abortion after the current law will be prosecuted for it
The way you're describing it is a system which is specifically geared to looking at individual purchases rather than more general behavior, which is how I suspect the models these companies use now, and will use in the future work.
There is so much data about us in the world (unless you actively try to hide your behavior, which also leaves a different kind of fingerprint) that the behaviors you describe, or risk you present, is discoverable through other means.
But looking at each of the examples you give
* Health Insurance - uuhhh.... well, I don't live in America, the rest of the developed world has pretty much got this figured out. But..where you live, how much you make, how often you change jobs, all these kinds of metrics feed into the rudimentary understanding of health. Also, don't health insurance companies ask if you smoke?
* Home Insurance - I think the above applies to all insurance. If you buy more candles, are you really more of a risk? Or if you have other risky behaviors? Candles could definitely be a false positive. It doesn't matter if I have thousands of candles, a careless person with 1 candle could be more dangerous.
* Law Enforcement - I think this one shows the flaw in your thinking. If I'm buying "too much ammo", is that because I'm using so much at a shooting range? Doesn't an a risky shooter (like someone about to pull of a mass shooting...again...an American thing...the rest of the world have figured this part out...) only use like 100 more bullets in their shooting? How much time is that at a shooting range.
So yes, these are just examples, and like you said, most of this data is already available without having your purchase information.
Now, I'm also cautious about where my purchase info goes, or as cautious as I can be, but this is the world we live in. I don't think we can put the genie back into the bottle, but I think it's important we don't just burry our heads in the sand and not understand how much information is available about us.
I always find this argument funny because you’re mad that insurance companies are more accurately pricing your risk. Like isn’t as insurance company with perfect information the ideal? Would you be happy if an insurance company saw your yoga class, Soylent, and no bills from bars or smoke shops and charged you way less?
Like how dare these evil corporations charge me accurately for my activities that negatively affect my health that I have been up to now paying less than my real risk profile would afford.