Lessons from Owning a Bookstore | Hacker News Reader

Lessons from Owning a Bookstore

ryanholiday.net

123 pointsjseliger70 comments

It helps when you're a famous author/influencer and owner of said bookstore and have famous author/influencer friends who help promote your bookstore. This sadly isn't the case for the many gems/rare book stores in the various cities around the US. My favorite bookstores that have been opened for 30+ years are recently going out of business.

Not to discredit his success, but if anyone else followed these tips and did not have such a large following online, they would probably go under too.

The one thing I think his bookstore does better than others? A personal curated collection. Also, Holiday is just simply a better marketer than your average bookstore owner.

So just remember:

- Start small.

...

- Be famous.

He notes that, though it is a little buried:

> Permission assets are everything. All my success as a writer, right down to this bookstore, has been rooted in the email lists and social media accounts I have built.

A lot of those bookstores that are closing are because the owner is retiring and it's not financially capable of standing on its own. The owner often owns the building which lets them run at very low levels of income, which a replacement wouldn't be able to.

If a community wants a bookstore to remain they'll probably need to set it up as a non-profit of some sort.

> If a community wants a bookstore to remain they'll probably need to set it up as a non-profit of some sort.

That doesn't solve the problem.

Space costs. So does someone working in the store. The latter is true for both owners and employees.

If we increase the value of public wellness, as part of GDP, say, then keeping small bookstores around becomes valuable. That's my feeling, anyway, as someone with a deep appreciation of small bookstores and public libraries from childhood onward.

Isn't that the role a library already fills? The only difference is maybe their love of the craft and more random options.

You cannot donate a old book to a library and assume that they will keep it and lend it out.

The best you can hope is that they sell it for a dollar at their next fund raiser.

Only if it is rare and already known as a great book or historic or worth a lot of money is it likely someone will see the same value you see in it.

Maybe the time for non-lending libraries And public reading rooms has come back.

"valuable" isn't enough - the rent and the person working there must be paid.

The old owner somehow needs to be convinced to bequeathe the building to their community for us as a community bookshop exclusively.

Unfortunately, the sale of the building and property is often the owner's retirement plan. You'd have to find a way to purchase at or near market value.

Purchasing it at market value sounds fairly convincing.

A friend of mine was working as a db developer for a local hospital in a small port town when the local bookstore announced it was closing shop. He decided to buy it and now he runs it full-time. It's been several years and as far as I know the business is doing well but perhaps that was because the bookstore was already established.

"...a better marketer..."

Oh, my lord, everything about this article screams shallow internet marketing.

"...a small town book store in rural Texas..." Bastrop is a (rather distant) suburb of Austin. "Rural Texas" is Roby (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Roby,+TX+79543/@32.7721923...).

"...the first 12 months of owning The Painted Porch. ... I love how The Painted Porch is now, but it took weeks and months to get it to where it is. It’s been a continual process of improvement and growth and making changes." A whole year?!

"I think one of the best decisions we made was making our book tower. It’s 20 feet tall and made of some 2000 books, 4000 nails, and 40 gallons of glue. It was not cheap to do. It was not easy to do. It took forever. We had to solve all sorts of logistical problems to make it work. But it’s also probably one of the single best marketing and business decisions we made in the whole store. Because it’s the number one thing that people come into the store to take pictures of."

This: https://preview.redd.it/2ajncim1mdk71.png?width=1200&format=... Really? Really.

What strikes me is the surrounding picture I’m struck thinking “where are the books? Where are the bookshelves? There’s like 6 books sparsely populating a shelf. When I think of a used book store like the one I frequented when I was a teenager, I expect it to be absolutely lousy with books in every nook and cranny, filled to the brim with interesting finds.

I mean, obviously they had to get the books for the tower from _somewhere_...

This is everything I love about the Book Barn[1] it's bursting at the seams with used books. Even though the traffic between Boston & NYC is awful I prefer to drive just so I can stop by and explore. I've never encountered a bad used bookstore but the Book Barn is hands down the best I've ever come across.

[1]https://www.bookbarnniantic.com/explore-the-store

One of my favourite book shops is in Brixton, London. It piled floor to ceiling in a place opposite the markets, and there's a book in the back with comfy sofas, a store cat, and a very hippy dippy owner who loves a natter about what he read this week. He curated the whackiest collection of literature, from high school text books, to ones on shamanistic practices in pre-colonial Uganda. It's utterly bizarre, and the complete antithesis of the author of OPs article.

I try to avoid being critical of people's work, especially businesses because good on them for at least trying, but in this case I think the shop from the article is truly lacking any soul that a traditional bookshop can and should have. Empty shelves look sad, not trendy.

The best part about old book stores was shelves filled to the brim with books and the various displays of how books are formed. The Last Bookstore in LA for example has those fun arches and makes you feel lost.

That 20 feet tall tower of books freaks me out. 40 gallons of glue, and 2000 paper books, with a fireplace in the middle of it! Glue. Paper. Fire.

Presumably a non-operable fireplace. I don't have to look up the code to know that doesn't meet it. It's something like no flammable within 6" of the firebox and nothing within a certain plane within 12".

Then you'd really be disturbed by almost every home fireplace that's framed in with flammable wooden studs. Not to mention kitchen stoves that are surrounded by wooden cabinets.

Build a good firebox and it doesn't matter what surrounds the fireplace.

> Oh, my lord, everything about this article screams shallow internet marketing.

Shallow internet marketing is kind of Ryan Holiday's jam. He's to books what Cheetos is to food.

That looks like it'd be a nightmare to keep clean!

It’s incredibly obvious that the bookstore is not a real business, more like a hobby where he can do what he likes, without pressure… this obviously gives a different perspective…

Disclaimer: I actually run a comic book shop, that’s very similar to a bookshop and have quite different experience and took different lessons from it.

(Unfortunately, I had to close it after two years. I talked about it in a blog post, in case someone finds it interesting https://wrongsideofmemphis.com/2013/04/01/i-was-once-a-non-t... )

> I’m happy enough to be putting books out in the world, making this community better, having a physical space, challenging myself, etc…as long as I don’t lose lots of money, that’s a win.

The author defines book store success as "not losing lots of money." I think readers should be cautious to interpret this as a traditional business success story, since the author clearly views the book store as a hobby project more than a business.

I came for some stories about starting a bookstore and all I got was a bunch of platitudes about adveristy.

Adversity and Stoicism is sort of his shtick. If you aren't aware of who he is its understandable how you'd be like "well this isn't what I wanted," and part of where HN/Reddit links can get weird for me. People who frequent a particular site know what they are in for from the title because they have the context of the person. Link sites are just places with a lot of information with some flavor but not to the same degree.

For people who need to hear these kinds of words, these messages, I'm sure this content is valuable, but for folks who don't need to hear, "Confidence is earned" it tends to come across as trite and uninspiring.

I have no idea where HN lands on that spectrum, but for me it evokes substantial eye rolling. "Yes, yes -- take risks, start small, do experiments, be the eternal student. Got it."

Not that I'm acing any of those tests, but I'm probably at a point where hearing it a thousandth time isn't realistically likely to change my perspective on those topics. Not everyone is where I'm at! But if you are, I don't imagine these kinds of words/messages are going to excite you.

Yup you aren't wrong. But there is a HUGE cottage industry around this sort of thing, be it self help books or other forms. I don't have exact figures but I'm under the impression Ryan has made a LOT of money off using the angle of stoicism/The Obstacle is the Way (he even has a book titled this) to offer the idea of inspiration for those who want it but can't seem to find it.

Does it actually work for people? Hell if I know, and the industry that has any hope of gathering that data doesn't want to know because if the answer is no and it gets out their entire money engine dies.

Reading his about page should give you a clear indication why. Almost the first sentence is "I dropped out of college to apprentice under Robert Greene, author of The 48 Laws of Power." I've always been extremely wary of people who pursue power for its own sake, before they're even fully formed humans. A common technique they choose to acquire power is hucking drivel to other people who view the world the same way - commonly writing in those platitudes about overcoming adversity. I've literally never heard of this guy, but just from reading this hn post, I can almost guarantee you he has published a book that can be summed up in about 2 sentences but is inexplicably 125 pages.

You're completely wrong about who Ryan Holiday is.

You can start by searching for his name on his own bookshop website: https://www.thepaintedporch.com/search?type=product&q=ryan+h...*

Seeing titles like "Courage is Calling", "Stillness is the Key", and "Trust Me, I'm Lying" only make me more confident in my point, not less. But, I'm not going to buy these books just to see if my hunch developed over 15 seconds is correct.

> Courage is Calling: Fortune Favors the Brave

I think I will judge that book by the words on its cover.

I found “The Obstacle Is The Way” useful and accessible, and I went on to read Marcus, Seneca and others. I appreciate the introduction Holiday provided.

Any combination of factors that allows the opening of something like an independent bookshop is A-OK by me. Maybe Tim Ferriss will open a wood-fired pizzeria.

I find Ryan Holiday to be pretty annoying as a marketer, I used to be on his email list for book recs but I got frustrated when the vast majority of his recs were books written by white men (I dont have an issue with books written by white men, but I do see it as a red flag when someone only really consumes content from one perspective).

But I did find "Trust Me, I'm Lying" to be a fascinating look into how to fake a grass roots campaign and create the illusion of virality (basically a step by step guide to fake it till you make it).

I also found his book on Peter Thiel/the Hulk Hogan case (Conspiracy) to be a really interesting look into a lawsuit with pretty major implications for the future of journalism. Although his musings on Thiel's motives/morality/approach seemed to overlook the idea that maybe there just shouldnt be billionaires.

Overall I would say he has interesting insights on specific situations but in general his thinking is fairly unimaginative/limited to manipulating the current system without actually questioning underlying assumptions.

I find people's opinions on Thiel to be an interesting litmus test: Seeing him as morally bad is one thing, and thinking there shouldn't be billionaires is a reasonable view, but if someone absolutely cannot or will not see that he was the wronged party when Gawker outed him without his consent while he was in a country hostile to LGBTQ+ people, they're morally blinkered at the very least.

People who judge the morality of an action based on characteristics of the people involved have replaced their moral sense with tribal affiliation. That, or they're immature black-and-white thinkers who cannot understand that even someone who is generally bad can be on the right side of a specific issue.

I agree, what Gawker did was wrong. But being wronged once doesnt excuse Thiel's actions. And (more importantly imo) the larger issue is -- are you comfortable with a random person having enough money/power to threaten freedom of the press?

Also Thiel is far from the only person to be outed, the only difference is his reaction/how much money he has. Do you think its equally wrong that Wired outed Naomi Wu while she lives in a country hostile to LGBTQ+ people?

Have you read Conspiracy?

> And (more importantly imo) the larger issue is -- are you comfortable with a random person having enough money/power to threaten freedom of the press?

OK, let's see if we agree on the basic timeline:

1. Gawker outed Thiel.

2. Gawker released the Hulk Hogan sex tape.

3. Thiel funded Hulk Hogan's lawsuit against Gawker.

4. Gawker lost the lawsuit.

Is that accurate? If it is, the problem isn't that Thiel funded the lawsuit, the problem is that Hulk Hogan needed Thiel to fund the lawsuit for him to prevail in court and get justice for the wrong Gawker did to him.

I'm for taxing billionaires. I'm also for privacy and people being protected against paparazzi. Those things don't come into conflict unless someone sees a billionaire funding lawsuits based on the right to privacy and decides that anything a billionaire does must be wrong, prima facie.

> Do you think its equally wrong that Wired outed Naomi Wu while she lives in a country hostile to LGBTQ+ people?

Yes.

> Have you read Conspiracy?

No.

Thanks for being confidently incorrect.

Often wrong, never in doubt

I said I gained "more confidence", not that I am confident. After all, like I said, I put about 15 seconds of thought into it, which was how long I knew that Ryan Holiday as a person even existed.

But I think I get it. I'll make another assumption, still in about 15 seconds, this time about you: You like Ryan Holiday. You subscribe to his mailing lists, have read his writings, and may have a couple of his books on your shelf. Your views on the world are aligned with his. So you're offended that I made a negative assumption about him because he's "your guy".

Thanks for continuing the discourse.

I think it's very easy to make assumptions and it's good to have heuristics to make life easier. But it's not wise to double down on them.

(You're half wrong again. I dont think stoicism that Ryan Holiday talks about is the greatest philosophy. I have read a couple of his books but dont subscribe to him. Anyways I would love to buy you a copy of his work if you want to read and judge for yourself.)

Partner ran a second hand book store. Some customers are lovely but I stress some.

Old books are dirty. There are insects, mould, dust, fingernails, yes, the first five odd bookmarks are funny but after a while, dead peoples bus tickets aren't amusing.

It's hard work. Margins are thin. Paper weighs a tonne and people overpack boxes.

I've noticed a few people here saying they wanted to read about the experience of owning a book store. I can strongly recommend "The Diary of a Bookseller" by Shaun Bythell after ending up at his very eclectic book shop in the middle of nowhere in Scotland and discovering he's actually a fantastic diarist too. A bit more background: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/oct/22/diary-of-books...

George Orwell wrote an essay on his experience working in a book shop: https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel... He worked there 1934+ and wrote the essay in 1936[1].

The main character of his novel Keep The Aspidistra Flying worked in a book store - with some scathing character vignettes of the customers! Despressing book and Eric Blair himself disliked it “Orwell refused to allow either Keep the Aspidistra Flying or his first novel, the considerably weaker A Clergyman's Daughter, to be reprinted in his lifetime.”[2]

[1] https://www.letterpressproject.co.uk/media/file/BMLetterpres...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/jul/06/georgeorwell.c...

Not much there actually relevant to books. Here’s something for those who wanted that:

http://www.threepanelsoul.com/comic/dealers-dilemma

You could also try playing the community translation of 本屋物語 [0], a bookstore simulation game. I wasn't able to, given the hex edit hacking used to insert the translated text without recompiling, but maybe your copy of windows will match that of the repository owner.

[0] discussed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27323748

[1] https://github.com/xraymemory/bookstory-en/issues/8

It's a dream of mine to own a Bookstore. Something similar to what's described in the article. Not a ton of books only books I know are good and interesting. Have the a store with a personal touch.

I just can't see how it's going to work financially. I don't plan to get rich from it but I sure would like it to sustain itself and be able to provide for my family. I guess if you already have a business that's bringing in the cash and you open the store as a hobby that makes things easier, this seems to be the case for the writer of that article.

But there are bookstores that have launched recently and have grown. The one in Truckee, CA is an obvious example. It's definitely not a hobby operation.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/word-after-word-books-truckee

Rough Draft in Kingston, NY is another one. It's definitely my favorite bookshop right now. It helps to have a great coffee bar and booze bar and a cool historical building, but most of all it helps to be in a city to which hipsters have been migrating in droves in recent years. To be fair Rough Draft are as much a driver of that recent migration (along with other new similar businesses) as it is a beneficiary. They do a great job in curating their book selection, unfortunately the crowds and morning coffee queues keep me away more than I would like.

https://www.roughdraftny.com

Carrying only a pre selection of books can be extremely tricky, unless you find a particular niche that’s in demand. That could be easier to do in big cities, but the problem there is that the costs are higher, which pressures the amount of monthly sales to pay rent, etc.

For experience running a comic book shop, I was selling a lot of stuff that I wasn’t particularly interested, but my customers liked. Now, it’s true that I had to close it after two years, but the interesting part is that it was really difficult to foresee what would be the best selling articles beforehand…

Of course, alongside, I was selling a lot of stuff that quite interested me. But I had to work on with the business hat on, more than with the fan hat on, if that makes sense

I'd be interested in quantifying "doing great" -- does this person have revenue numbers or anything like that elsewhere?

Google Ryan Holiday net worth, estimates are between 6.5 and 8 million. Of that, the book store likely [just a guess] accounts for... likely next to none of that. :) But it may employ people and serve as an office and sometimes distribution point for Holiday's own books. And that could be "doing great."

My wife and I owned a brick and mortar hobby store for a decade that was "doing great." It never made any money, but it employed a dozen people and fostered a wargaming community which is still vibrant to this day even after the store sold its assets to another hobby retailer.

There used to be a 2nd hand book store in my neighbourhood that was obviously a labour of love. It was a tiny premises with a single proprietor, who opened at very odd hours. He was often open in the middle of the night and closed during the daytime.

I barely ever spoke to him, as I sensed he preferred it that way but he would sometimes unlock the door for me even if he didn't want any other customers.

Sadly, his store disappeared when the area became gentrified. It was just gone one day.

There seems to be very little space in modern cities for this type of thing anymore, and I miss it.

A parent started a used bookstore when I was kid in the 70s. I have no idea where the initial bunch of books came from, but we'd buy books and magazines, too.

I spent the summer with a ton of MAD, Cracked, Cartoons, and when nobody was looking Playboy magazines, a lot from the 50s and 60s. A lot of WWII stuff was around as well, Sad Sack stuff.

“As Zeno said, books are a way to have conversations with the dead. You can learn from people who came before you. They can also inspire and reassure you.”

wtf am i reading?

I was turned away from this bookstore yesterday for not masking! What a coincidence to see this here.

I always stop for a bookstore. When I step through the door, I pause to take in the atmosphere and decide where to start browsing.

Here, the person politely requested I don a mask. There were free masks available. Everyone browsing turned to look at me. I said, “oh…that’s okay, thank you” and politely went back outside.

I would mask to browse books or when someone asked me to. But I wasn’t prepared to be put on the spot like that. It’s not what I go to bookstores for. :(

You say that you'll put on a mask to browse books. But you walked into a bookstore without one.

You say you'll put on a mask if asked. But they did ask. Politely, as you noted.

How would you have preferred that they handled that situation?

Given that anyone who wants to be is vaccinated + boosted, and also considering how many people have had Omicron and have natural immunity - why even require a mask?

Vaccinated people are getting Omicron infections. Many are asymptomatic, but can still spread it. People carry other infections too.

Masking reduces dispersion of virus-carrying aerosols. https://physics.aps.org/articles/v14/s155

That would be why.

It’s trivial to pop on a mask. I will continue to do so when around other people in less-well-ventilated spaces.

Two years on, are we still having this tedious argument?

The study I referenced sought to "quantify how masks mitigate the direct transport of drops, which was previously unquantified." It was published in November.

I still don’t understand how such a trivial thing became politicised. The people at the fringes are nuts and they have far too much influence.

How is this convo political?

I mean at this point I don't really care and I don't really mind.

Before I enter a business I look to see if they have a mask required sign on. I don't mind putting one on in that case.

If I walk in and I'm the only one not wearing one, I'll typically put one on.

I'm just not really interested in debating whether or not its needed. Surely it does slow transmission, but at this point it's more a courtesy to the business owner.

I like Ryan's book recs and he is clearly a very smart, well read person, but he read one book about the 1918 flu and acts like he is a virologist.

Some people are never going to let covid go, based on the content in his newsletter, he is one of them.

It feels like some people will NEVER let it go, but if you look at with a 3,000 foot perspective it was really only 3 months ago that we had a real relevant wave.

Maybe some of the people who got hit harder, or have higher anxiety will be worried for longer than we think they should, but I doubt that worry will extend a year or two past the rest of us.

i hope you're right.

You didn't "want to be put on the spot"? What does that mean?

You entered somebody else's building. They asked that you wear a mask and offered a free mask for you.

At what moment were you "on the spot"?

Were there signs up regarding obligatory masking? "Everyone browsing turned to look at me." In every bookstore I've been in people have rarely looked up as someone enters

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