You had a point until "gulags." You honestly think we're on the verge of becoming a Stalinist state that imprisons and murders political dissidents by the millions?
Maybe that's a tad alarmist?
I'm pretty sure the police could get away with murdering political rivals right now. But a few key court decisions are all we need to formalize that capability for the next 100 or so years.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/13/classified-us...
The American prisons are not full of thought criminals just because you are being denied all the footage and proof of the violent crimes the people in US prisons commit, constantly. I realize that most people live in a negative bubble, where they have no idea what is happening because the truth has been withheld from them, but that does not change the reality most people are at least unwittingly ignorant of.
But yes, the gulag system actually already exists in America, and the political prisoners in the USA right now already know that. Assange is also in that gulag system and can probably be considered the first, Prisoner #1 of the American Empire’s Gulag Equivalent System, even though it is on foreign soil.
Police across the country are letting criminals run rampant due to fear of prosecution for doing their job.
Police are "letting criminals run rampant" because they throw tantrums the moment money or accountability is discussed. Just watch how they behave the moment a city even whispers "pension" despite the fact that police pensions are crushing city budgets across the nation.
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/pension-costs-b...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-pensions-policeandfir...
What? I see no-one throwing 'tantrums' in the articles you linked. I see some people trying to keep the pensions they have earned. Do you expect ordinary Americans to jump to take a pension cut after working all their lives?
And this in the hope that magically that money will go to the right places and reduce crime?
We have conservatives non-stop calling for “reduced spending” and “tightening the belt” who are all too happy to cut everything they feel “their people” don’t need, but the big ticket items - military, pensions, etc. - are arbitrarily sacrosanct. Well, it’s not actually arbitrary. It’s because they want to hurt “the right people.”
Reduced spending will never be fair to the people on the receiving end.
Source?
Personally, if we survived the 60’s/70’s, I think we can survive this. They literally murdered college students in front of the world.
I’m also not sure how any of this translates into Stalin-era gulags. People throw that term around too lightly, like “nazi.” If you’ve actually studied any Russian/Soviet history you should know how insane those were, even for an era with rampant fascism.
It seems in vogue to use words without understanding the actual meanings. Most people haven't read history and speak, loudly, of that which they don't know.
My parents were activists in the 60s, and my grandparents were activists in the 20s & 30s. My parents mostly feared being beaten, with a background fear of being shot at. My grandparents feared being disappeared along with retribution to their extended family, friends, and neighborhoods.
The advent of increased population, social media, technology, and major american hyper polarization make the current times very different than the 60s/70s.
Let's stop with the both sides are the same bit, m'kay? Plenty to criticize on the left but please stick to facts.
And as far as Civil War goes, I'd posit that it's already begun.
If a civil war has “already begun,” I guess I live somewhere else, because I don’t hear any gun shots. Frankly it feels a lot calmer around here than it did a year or two ago.
A key change this time is not to split apart, but to simply grab all the marbles and declare the game to be over. I wish I could be sanguine about this and would love to be proven wrong, but it's looking grim.
Source on these influential media personalities? I assume they're not fringe in any way, since you called them "influential".
Wildly different death tolls though. Our best estimate is that the gulag system had an 8.88% death rate, with that varying wildly on a year by year basis. Meanwhile the US prison system as of 2018 kills 344 per 100,000, or .344%. But unfortunately those numbers are getting worse, not better. I think the difference here is less about our system being more humane, and more the fact that food and antibiotics are cheap. Heck, just look at how the prison system responded to covid.
I honestly think we’re a lot closer to a gulag system than people think. We’ve already built the majority of the machinery to actually implement such a system, and politically making the system harsher and less humane is very popular. There is also a bipartisan consensus that what we need is to fund the system even more. All that we’re missing is the jump to directly imprisoning political opponents, and we’ve already seen some calls for that although it isn’t quite mainstream yet.
What do you know about the gulag system? Serious question, not baiting or anything. What are the broad strokes of what you understand to be "The Gulags"? Because like you, I am VERY concerned with the US penal system, but to compare the two is...a stretch for me.
Saying 'this is what we call hyperbole' seems to imply, 'my ideas stand so well on their own, I don't need to respond to your criticism; the problem is not with my ideas or how I've expressed them, it is with your inability to recognize a particular rhetorical device.' Which is both patronizing and wrong. Your use of hyperbole was recognized and is being interrogated.
You're under no obligation to respond to that challenge, no one here has a right to your time, but if you're going to, it would be more productive for everyone if you did so in good faith.
Well. now this is a strawman.
Words have meanings, and using the words inaccurate/the wrong meanings is saying one thing but meaning another, and the word for that is lying.
What was the civil war about? States rights. What rights, specifically? The right of states to allow their citizens to practice slavery. Therefore, the civil war was about slavery.
What was jan 6 about? It was about an attempt to undermine the government. An attempt to undermine what, specifically? The election process. Why did they seek to undermine the election process? So that the mob could extra-judicially install a leader of their preference. Another word for this is coup d'etat.
AFAIK, in common use the word coup involves the military taking control of the government.
That is one common kind of coup, but distinguished from the broader category. That's why the phrase “military coup” exists to distinguish the kind of coup where the military (or some part of it) is the main actor in seizing control outside of normal bounds.
> The sudden overthrow of a government by a usually small group of persons in or previously in positions of authority.
Or to use Wikipedia’s definition
> A coup d'état (French for "blow of state"), often shortened to coup in English (also known as an overthrow), is a seizure and removal of a government and its powers. Typically, it is an illegal seizure of power by a political faction, rebel group, military, or a dictator. Many scholars consider a coup successful when the usurpers seize and hold power for at least seven days.
Yes, the military can be involved in a coup, but the essential definition does not require their involvement. Different terms might be applied if the military is involved, and based on whether or not the military is the primary driver (as in Myanmar) or is backing one side.
Jan 6th was about a small number of ignorant people who bought into a bunch of lies. A protest that got out of control. One that was far, far less violent, with far fewer casualties than dozens of protests that happened around the country the prior year. All mobs are bad, all riots are bad. Unfortunately different partisans have been trying to blow up the implications of one riot while downplaying all the others.
Yet the GOP is sidelining and smearing the few among them who actually want to hold the insurrectionists accountable.
If they were able to successfully break into that room while Congress was still in there, what do you think would’ve happened? They would’ve invited them over for tea?
I don’t like engaging in speculation but I think it’s pretty obvious we would’ve had more casualties.
And stuff is still coming out about Trump. A mysterious seven hour gap in the White House communications logs. A Federal judge ruling that it's "more likely than not" that Trump "corruptly attempted to obstruct Congress" attempting to overturn the election results. He called it a "coup in search of a legal theory." Yes, that's not "beyond a reasonable doubt," but it's also not nothing.
You're right that it was far less violent, and had far fewer casualties, but it wasn't just a riot, nor were there just a small number of ignorant people involved. To think that at this point, or to dismiss all concerns as partisan hyperbole, is kind of ridiculous.
No, attempted coup (specifically, attempted self-coup) is much more accurate.
> Words have meanings
Yes, they do. And the precise political science terms for the coordinated attempts by the 45th President and his allies to extend his powers beyond their lawful duration by extralegal means is “self-coup” or “auto-coup” (in the original French, “autogolpe”), which is a form of coup carried out by or on behalf of the existing leader.
> and using the words inaccurate/the wrong meanings is saying one thing but meaning another, and the word for that is lying.
Yes, that is exactly what you are doing when you explicitly refuse to use the correct term in attempt to minimize the act.
"New information has emerged regarding the death of the Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick that questions the initial cause of his death provided by officials close to the Capitol Police."
Wikipedia says
"The cause of Sicknick's death was first thought to be from injuries, but months later the medical examiner reported there were none."
"The District of Columbia chief medical examiner found that Sicknick had died from stroke, classifying his death as natural"
The original commenter said some officer was beaten to death. Maybe another officer, or were they just mistaken?
There is no such implication at all. "Without weapons" means "without weapons". The vast majority of people at that riot were gun owners, and none of them were armed or fired a shot. I can assure you, people who own guns and are committed to violently overthrowing the government bring those guns and shoot them. For evidence see any of the numerous coups that occur in countries around the world.
Do you acknowledge it was violent?
Not single LEO was beaten to death on Jan 6th. You are literally spreading misinformation and fake news lol. SCP Officer Brian Sicknick died after having two strokes aka natural causes.
Oh come now. "Hang Mike Pence." "Stop the steal." The former president calling election officials telling them to "find the votes." I don't care what your politics are, what we saw this last election was like nothing we've ever seen before in this country. It was a failed attempt to overturn a democratic election on the basis of a lie.
> a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force.
So, I stand corrected. It does meet the definition of "attempted coup".
Not only did a sitting President betray people and killed millions with anti-masker/anti-vaccine rhetoric, he did so to aid a foreign country that is known for murdering political dissidents, and did so during WW2, during the Cold War, and the post-Soviet era that exists today; but also our Congress, most of those still occupying those seats today, aided and abetted him. What Trump and his Congress did is terrorism without being formally charged with it, and is hardly any different than the pre-Stalin era of Soviet Russia and the pre-Kristallnacht era of the Nazi occupation of Germany.
So, please, I'd like you to tell me why you think people shouldn't be seriously alarmed? You sound like all the deniers in the history books: "Oh, the Nazis wouldn't kill Jews and political dissidents", "Oh, Stalin wouldn't (also) kill Jews and political dissidents", "Oh, Chairman Mao wouldn't just starve tens of millions to gratify his own ego". People keep saying this, it keeps not being true.
History is a goddamned broken record.
You shouldn’t let your personal animosity towards Trump lead to believing misinformation.
Mueller finds no collusion with Russia, leaves obstruction question open
https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2...
You should take this opportunity to consider what other things you know to be true about Trump may also be misinformation.
The Washington Post corrects, removes parts of two stories regarding the Steele dossier
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/media-washing...
The entire Trump Russia gate was to divert attention from what Hillary / Biden were doing.
Oh a laptop was found with solid evidence showing collusion between the Bidens and various countries. Well naturally the same response is to sensor anyone that wants to talk about it and to impeach Trump.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/03/mainstream-media-outle...
I don't have to. I witnessed several Republican congressmembers go out of their way to announce that no matter what evidence presented is, they had already decided to ignore it and vote against the removal of Trump from office.
Now, I can't tell you why they decided to announce their criminal enterprise shortly before enacting it, but a quick Google tells me their names are Cindy Hyde-Smith, Roger Wicker, Thom Tillis, Rob Portman, James Inhofe, Mike Rounds, and Jerry Moran.
> Mueller finds no collusion with Russia, leaves obstruction question open
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report is a well cited article.
"On March 27, 2019, Mueller reportedly wrote to Barr in a letter, as stated in the New York Times "expressing his and his team's concerns that the attorney general had inadequately portrayed their conclusions".[226] This was first reported on April 30, 2019. Mueller thought that the Barr letter "did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance" of the findings of the special counsel investigation that he led.[227] "There is now public confusion about critical aspects of the results of our investigation". Mueller also requested Barr release the Mueller report's introductions and executive summaries.[228][229]"
What you linked to covers Barr's misleading summary of the Muller report.
> The Washington Post corrects, removes parts of two stories regarding the Steele dossier
Again, Wikipedia has a well cited article on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steele_dossier
Also, it is funny how when it comes to politics Republicans have moved so far right that now center-right is considered the left party.
Also, some Republicans have moved far right. Some Democrats have moved pretty far left, too. I will admit that more Republicans moved than Democrats. But both parties have sections near the center, and both have extreme parts. And both are having trouble maintaining unity in the face of that tension.
Many Democrats also decided to join the Putin-backed coup attempt, and also voted to not impeach during one or both trials. Many Democrats also tried to claim Hunter Biden, while working for a natural gas company in Ukraine, somehow was up to something and using his dad's appointment as VP for something.
Funny how Biden became President, and now Russia is invading Ukraine to maintain their stranglehold on Europe's energy supply, and all the pro-Russian bot accounts on Twitter and Facebook that were repeating the "Hunter's Laptop" and "But Her Emails" stories to divide and conquer, suddenly vanished.
I am a socialist, and what both parties do is disgusting, and, honestly, anti-American. Our government has been rapidly degrading my entire lifetime, and the only reasonable action is to ring the alarm bell and hope other people wake up and start fighting the fascism that is threatening to destroy our nation.
It's not "funny." It makes complete sense. Services for .ru accounts are being suspended around the world.
But I'm vexed that it's not even possible to talk about these things here in a policy and goals context because the fucking tribalism is out of control. I can haz such disappoint.
Moreover, the left has moved further left than the right has moved right. https://jabberwocking.com/if-you-hate-the-culture-wars-blame...
The tribalism of politics is fierce, and even a forum with as much collective intelligence as HN is not immune from that force.
We should be able to discuss policy and actions on their own merits without it being taken as a personal affront. I wish I could find the magical incantation that would allow that dialog to manifest.
[1] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home