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Comment by artful-hacker | Hacker News Reader

SAT scores correlate with IQ test scores. SAT is just a 'legal' thinly veiled version of IQ test.

So let's cut the shit then and just do IQ tests.

This is the best technical university in the world offering the best technical education in history. It's where the smartest minds learn foundational knowledge that will enable them to make amazing technological contributions to mankind.

Not everything needs to be a battleground for the boring diversity of skin color. It's actually important that we get the most qualified people in these seats.

But shouldn't starting points be taken into consideration when you are judging someone's merit?

I've never seen somebody who opposes meritocracy actual suggest taking starting points into consideration - instead, they demand that easily observable, intrinsic physical characteristics be used as a proxy for "starting point".

But there are a number of studies demonstrating how race & class impact things (when controlled for other factors) like teacher perception, grading, letters of recommendation, not to mention just the fact that if you are growing up in a black (or white) household that has $5 in wealth, you'll have less access to educational opportunity than the white (or black, albeit far more rarely) household with $200,000 in wealth.

We shouldn't seek to control for these factors?

No. That only tells you to fix those factors but the outcome is what they are. By the time of the ACT/SAT test it's too late to fix those things. Fix those upstream.

> By the time of the ACT/SAT test it's too late to fix those things. Fix those upstream.

Based on?? If someone is smart, but denied opportunity, often times this can be resolved by exposure to things - even for an 18 year old.

Indeed, environmental factors become less important for intelligence starting precisely at this age.

Based on this MIT press release stating that controlling for socio-economic factors test score was still significant in predicting outcome in college. You want to challenge that you need to come up with data.

18 years of growth differences cannot be made up by "exposure to things" from age 18-22. It helps, but it does not resolve it. If someone is truly smart they will score well on the not-very-difficult ACT/SAT without any test prep in the first place. These are stupidly easy tests by international standards. Just suck it up and recognize that at the high level that these schools operate at, if you are below a certain score range, you are not ready, regardless of how many "opportunities" you are given.

That's not to say that some people aren't capable in other ways and will do just fine in life, but these schools are not for them.

No, not here. 100% of MIT admissions should go to pupils who are the most capable of succeeding and who are already the best prepared to succeed before they arrive. Utopia aside, as a society we require elite science and engineering ability. If we don't have it we lose out to another society that doesn't do this incessant navel gazing, simple as that. To whatever extent "starting point" is a problem it should be remediated entirely upstream from admission into the world's most prestigious technical university.

If someone has "elite science and engineering" ability and came from a background where they were raised by a family with a household wealth of $5, and someone has a slightly more "elite science and engineering" ability and was raised by a family with a household wealth of $1,000,000, I am not confident that long term the second person will be the greater innovator.

I agree with you completely, and a lot of talent surely goes to waste. I'm not sure what difference you think that makes. If the kid from the poor family isn't well prepared by the time he gets to MIT on day one, all of the natural talent in the world isn't going to change that.

One of two things will happen: He'll fail out; this is common for diversity admits. Or, he may require a remedial curriculum to develop these natural talents he is believed to have, but may not, nobody's really sure yet because he can't demonstrate them as well as the other students from richer households. Either way, a prestigious university is not the proper forum for that.

IQ Tests aren't illegal though? If colleges wanted to administer IQ tests they absolutely could.

Maybe "more politically correct" or "easier to get away with" would be a better way to phrase what I meant.

Why are IQ tests controversial?

Because blacks have lower average scores on them.

Whites also have lower average scores on them. Lower than Asians and Jews.

At the elite level this would make a huge difference. At the state level not at all.

What do you mean by "whites". American "whites"? The last IQ report has many Asian countries at the top followed by "white" European countries. Whites and blacks are such generic terms. There are many different types of white, black, asian, etc peoples that have different cultures and phenotypes based on the region.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-i...

That site is a mess. Shows a chart where the average IQ is 82, links to a page saying the average IQ is 100 (which is the original design). Also cites a eugenicist and thinks that worthy of a passing footnote. Frankly, I wouldn't trust anything I read there.

Can we somehow blame this on oppression?

No need. Just attribute an unmeasurable quality such as creativity to your racial group.

Lead poisoning lowers your IQ; blacks are more likely to be exposed to it. (https://www.dw.com/en/lead-poisoning-reveals-environmental-r...)

And this is the same reason whites rank lower than asians and jews?

The Griggs v. Duke Power Co. decision (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.) makes them legally problematic.

Because they're largely accurate in the aggregate and project outcomes quite well, and no one likes this.

> SAT scores correlate with IQ test scores.

Do you have a source on this?

Howard Gardner's "Intelligence Reframed" (1999)

You can look for "intelligence" on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT. From memory, Human Intelligence by Earl Hunt has plenty of references as well if you're into this topic.

A is for aptitude.

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