Do you find the current Ukraine a morale grey area? What's the argument? Maybe Ukraine had it coming? They didn't deserve their freedom anyway?
It is kind of a grey area when it come to the West in general. The West invaded Afganistan, Iraq, Syria, Lybia, intervened in the Balkans. We in the West had Vietnam and Cuba, we had Algeria and all those little known wars in Africa. All of those were framed in ways not to different from what Russia is trying in Ukraine. Now, taking in refugees is seen as a sign of how great we are. When we refugees from other countries and regions in Europe it was called refugee crisis and ended up with people living in shitty camps and illegal push backs (the guy leading FRONTEX organizing those is still in charge despite indisputable proof). Europe is treating Ukrainian refugees way different from non-Ukrainians fleeing from the same war, not to mention those refugees stuck in Belarus. Western intervention in Ukraine is more than justified, once it is over and we have some time the West should do some much needed soul searching so. Not that I think that's gonna happen.
How come I'm able to draw the line at "supporting an unjustified genocidal war, the invasion and killing of my neighbours, and the destruction of their homes"?
How come I'm able to see the difference between "freedom of having and speaking opinions that are contrary to the mainstream's", and "freedom to want to murder innocents"?
Probably US will try to use the same strategy with China if this works well against Russia. That's my personal prediction. Once Russia is weaken, US will move immediately on China.
1) on YouTube, there are many talks from American scholars, officials and intelligence talked about Ukraine, and predicted this conflict, even before the invasion, US insists that (although NATO doesn't want Ukraine) Ukraine has right to join NATO. US has trained Ukraine to be the frontline to fight Russia, knowing Russia would take action in response to NATO's plan;
2) US and UK are not worried the war would affect them directly, they are pushing to continue this conflict to bleed Russia economy and military, while other European countries who have a lot to lose want this conflict to end;
3) This war is not really about Russia and Ukraine, it is a war between Russia and US. To US's advantage, it is a proxy war where US does not need to participate directly. I believe US is more than happy to have this war than a direct conflict (which would result casualties and push back by voters);
4) Because this is mainly a US-Russia conflict, only US and Russia can stop this. US has shown no interests of deescalating the situation, instead, US has been using this as an opportunity to criticizing China, taking advantages of the situation. So far, US has not called for negotiation at all.
In response to your question, here is what Putin said:"It is not our plan to occupy the Ukrainian territory." (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-tran...)
I think Putin's stupid to do this, look at history of war, US's 20 years in Afghanistan, 20 years in Iraq, how can you invade a country? Maybe his plan was to get rid of Zelensky quickly.
I agree the West's hot-cold meddling does not paint a rosy picture, and if we were just discussing covert actions in the Donbas/Crimea, your narrative could make sense. But once we're talking about open war, the relativism drops away and the aggressor becomes very clear - many Russian troops are occupying Ukrainian territory, while no Ukrainian troops are occupying Russian territory.
As far as US deescalation - what exactly do you think there is for the US to give? Ukraine's right of free association is not the US's to give away.
Ukraine is at loss, Russia will be weaker, it is a good strategy for the US, Europe will spend more money (but they are rich). The developing world is going to suffer with the food price and energy prices. Developing world is going to bear the cost of the war and sanctions.
From US the point of view, not deescalation is the best option. You know what US could give? Just tell Ukraine that NATO is not the best option for it, could be behind doors, I am sure US does this all the time. Unfortunately Ukraine was not discouraged, rather encouraged to pursue a dead end.
(And if the above made you think I support Russia, or the war, you might be brainwashed).
Yeah, well, you say that but you're here continuously defending them, and you're bringing up weak arguments. Upthread you've also said you "read RT daily", and maybe that has something to do with it.
FWIW, I'm extremely familiar with the Russian side of the argument. Not everyone is because not everyone is interested in digging into geopolitical issues that don't concern them directly beyond reading the news over breakfast cereal or vaguely scrolling a couple of retweets. This doesn't imply they're "brainwashed" or that we "suppress information"; I had no trouble at all finding all of Putin's idiotic arguments since 0224.
Of course, you can play right into his hands and "discuss NATO" or some shit, as if there is ANY justification to the war crimes and atrocities being committed every day. Civilians being explicitly targeted, hospitals and shelters being bombed, chemical weapons being used, and so on.
"Yes but you see, NATO" is justifying the unjustifiable.
I really hope you recognize the problem in what you are implying.
Most people know this. But Ukraine was not even able to join NATO because of disputed territories. So in case of Ukraine argument about NATO threat is pretty naive.
The Russian side doesn't matter. They're invading in a brutal manner a sovereign country for the interests of an authoritarian leader and his clique. It doesn't matter why he thinks this is the best course of action ( it isn't, whatever he hoped to achieve was unachievable from day 1), he's flat out wrong and doing a morally abhorrent thing. All of the excuses Russia has provided for the invasion are very flimsy at best, but usually outrageous ( like that Ukraine isn't a real country and has no national identity).
Russia has multiple NATO neighbours ( Baltics, Poland). Occupying Ukraine will add a few more ( Hungary, Slovakia, Romania). Even if we take Putin's "geopolitical concerns" at face value, and we shouldn't because Russia has done nothing but lie, it doesn't make sense.
But again, it doesn't matter why the crazy old person is bombing maternity hospitals, the important part is that he is, he deserves all the pushback possible and he should be punished for that.
The comparisons to the Nazis are in the playbook only - delusions of grandeur and nationalism, dismissal of other peoples, X isn't a real country, etc.
The Internet is fast.
And if you meant that banning the symbol is ok, it does not immediately follow that discussion about the censorship (it is still censorship, even if it's ok) should be banned.
Anyway, in a huge thread, there appeared a single answer about NATO. So if you want to go tag something, that answer is a good one.
That said, it started with Putin gradually eliminating opposition, controlling mainstream media and blocking non-mainstream ones, beating down all organizations that had organized people working together and expressing alternative opinion (religious organizations, trucker unions, heritage funds).
The West is currently about 1-1.5 decades behind. We are silencing fringe voices instead of reasoning with them. We are canceling dissidents instead of tolerating them. We let a handful of people with their own interests decide what is "information" and what is "misinformation". If we let this process continue, it will inevitably follow the Russian curve.
The mechanics here is very simple: once you create a position of power that decides what is right and what is wrong, the person occupying this position will seek more rights and wrongs simply to justify their existence. And others will join that cause for the sake of promotion/influence. Such structures only fall in a larger turmoil (bankruptcy of a company, fall of the government, etc) that inevitably brings a lot of destruction.
Banning “Z” is banning support for a mafioso political system that is not only anti-democracy, but also actively murdering an internationally-recognized democratic nation… again.
Fringe voices need to give their heads a shake and sit this one out.
But no, this time is different. I'm so tired listening to the bad guys, let the good guys shut them up... /s
Don’t support the mafia, you goof.