Crime scene investigators learn to dowse for the dead
themarshallproject.org
themarshallproject.org
Well, if that ain't a great way to manufacture a warrant.
What exactly is wrong with cadaver dogs, anyway? I'm guessing it's that cadaver dogs actually work on scientific principles. (Edit: dogs also can't smell a body from across the street. At least, I don't think they can.)
Personally, I would like to see some sort of registration before an animal or device is used for a search. A search would be invalid unless it is applied for. Then the results must be entered upon completion (or assumed to be a failed search). Then we could see the results and how accurate these animals or "scientific" tests are in practice.
Instead we have warrants essentially backed by dogs who have no track record. The police are allowed to say, "the dog alerted, so drugs must have been present at some point and must have been moved." This has even led to further searches for where the drugs were moved to. All without anyone knowing the actual accuracy or effectiveness of a dog's search ability -- only that it was "certified".
I would have to imagine that after several such incidents, the police budget would begin to be affected.
But to get back on point, what should the police do? They have an investigation to do and the dog trying to say something? Should we avoid questioning people just because society is fucked up?
I’m not sure I’m not a religious scholar not believer but have still received a catholic education being Italian (went to catholic private schools) and a lot of things that I absolutely hate are mostly explained by people I talk to with being a result of evangelical education
What do you think? Might it be more cultural than related to status?
[1] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/protestants-decline-religion...
https://www.science.org/content/article/should-dog-s-sniff-b...
Dog noses ARE insane, but they're probably not THAT insane.
Besides - where else would they have gotten the information from? She was killed on a submarine with no one else aboard but her murderer, and he wasn't talking.
My beagle once lead me through a park about 80 feet to a dropped slice of pizza.
So, yeah, given a body is going to be a massive horrible smell that's a lot easier to find than cold pizza, this is entirely plausible.
What is their false positive and false negative rates?
Essentially if any of these powers were true, they could be reproduced in a scientific experiment and then reversed engineer on why they actually work. There is even a foundation with 1 million dollar price for whoever proves to have paranormal abilities. No-one has ever been able to prove scientifically to have paranormal power and won the prize for decades.
That said, I wouldn't use water as an example; I'm no geologist but I'm fairly sure you'll find water in most places if you dig deep enough, there's not going to be underground rivers that are very location specific for which you need divining so much.
They did not find anything that wild be above statistically expected results.
I will add a source if I find it, but it is at least 20 years old
The fact is that they do indeed find bodies this way. The chances of randomly digging up a body by pure guess are vanishingly rare. We're talking at most around 10 square feet (often just 4-5 square feet) while there are 43,560 per acre or 27,878,400 per square mile. Even if you buried 1000 bodies in that square mile, your chances of finding one would still be a fraction of a percent.
Only if burying a body left no trace.
I can spot where deer have pooped in my lawn because there's a tuft of greener grass. Digging a big hole and putting 150 pounds of flesh into it is going to change stuff that's likely visible to an experienced tracker.
And the GP's point is that this technique is little more than a focusing meditation for an experienced tracker.
Athletes in particular spend ungodly sums on performance aids, many of which have no scientific basis -- but, if it helps the athlete get into a winning mindset, what grounds do you really have to tell them to stop?
If the local football player wants to use a dowsing rod in search of treasure, go for it. If the local cops want to dig up my backyard because they got a hit off one, they can fuck off.
If your "guess" is a random walk, sure. But it isn't. You're going to walk around, see disturbed dirt, bias towards a trail, or where it makes sense, etc. I don't really but the trance thing.
You probably mean the James Randi foundation prize. That was terminated in 2015.
Also, anything not understood scientifically as of now is "paranormal"... and these people claiming to give these prizes are not truly curious and have these to prove a point, the point being "we already know what is there to be known". They always have gotchas and are not worth the trouble. If you discover things like that, you are better off looking somewhere else.
"Paranormal" are generally things that defy already-understood scientific laws. E.g. mind reading, telepathy, or "breatharianism". Often these phenomena fall apart completely once closely examined. A more edge case is/was the "Em Drive" thruster[1]. This seemed to hold up to scrutiny in a few tests, but further investigation showed the results may have been caused by subtle measurement error.
I think it's really uncharitable to claim that James Randi is "not truly curious". Indeed, I find proponents of the paranormal to be the incurious ones as they tend to stick to their beliefs even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That's not curiosity, it's stubbornness.
Personally.. I highly doubt its real, else we would have more people doing this full time. There were also the divining rods that were bomb detectors(https://slate.com/technology/2013/04/dowsing-for-bombs-maker...).
People are crazy with what we will and won't believe. With varying levels of proof on each side...
If you're talking about the quantum mechanics effect, then you're misunderstanding it. In QM 'observing' just means measuring something about a system. The only way we know of measuring stuff on a quantum level is by poking it with light or other particles. On the scale of quantum interactions, poking something with light affects the thing you're trying to measure. The 'observer effect' has nothing to do with there being any sort of conscious or intelligent observer.
If a tree falls in the woods and there's no one to hear it, does it make a sound?
Science can't meaningfully separate any of its observations from a conscious observer. At present, that's the realm of philosophy.
Until you have conscious observer, you have no evidence that anything at all has happened and you might as well discuss angels on a pinhead.
Furthermore, plenty of phenomena are detectable without a present conscious observer. If I accidentally drop a bread crumb as I bite into a crusty sandwich while walking in the forest and nobody notices, does it ever land on the ground? (Note that in this case, there's no linguistic ambiguity to insert a false profundity to the question. "Land on the ground" is pretty clearly defined.)
We know the answer is yes because we understand gravity. And as evidence (rather than first principles), we might also find ants later in the spot where the breadcrumb landed.
If the effect is broken as long as someone is able to, after the fact, discern if there's any benefit vs chance - there is no possible effect.
Why do some people feel it? Why do some dont? What is the nature of this "energy"? Can devices do magick instead of humans?
There's enough coincidences that should make most at least curious what's going on. It may be nothing... but probably isn't.
Occam’s razor applies here. Human perception is incredible fallible and highly susceptible to self-subversion, and that is the simplest and most likely explanation of any magical or mystical phenomena.
You may know how to ride a bike. Can you reverse engineer and explain in an algorithmic way how to ride a bike? No. Does that invalidate the fact that you can indeed ride a bike? Of course not.
Edit: do not fixate on the bike. It was just an example. Write a symphony, create a joke, understand irony.
But riding a bike seems very easy algorithm. All these self balancing scooters, remote controlled toys, seems like perfect examples of what you get when you reverse engineer bikes.
Anyway, the fact that we can not formally prove all true things doesn't really matter. That doesn't make all things equally valid. We find supporting evidence, we build conceptual models, we test the periphery of systems.
Dowsing for corpses, on the other hand, absolutely requires new physics, because the pseudo-physical explanations offered around piezoelectricity and people having different voltages are deeply inconsistent with our understanding of physics.
You could observe the sun rising and setting long before understanding the revolutions of our planet.
If someone can do something, you can reproduce it. That's true for bike-riding, but apparently not true for dowsing.
"people were digging for water on a road because there was a pipe leak somewhere and it needed to be plugged. so here were bunch of men having dug an entire road section but nothing. this guy comes up. says to wait. he then holds rods (assuming dowsing rods) and says "here. dig here" and there was water there.
it can be a fluke but these men were tired and suddenly there was excitement.
Like the weakness of science is prostitution. Not for math or humanities, but for science it's huge. Purdue Pharma is famous for its prostitutions, their biggest exploit was the majority of the guilt and blame for the opioid epidemic. That was carried out by several prostitutions carried out carefully and with great expertise, beginning with getting the FDA to agree that their opioid lasted twice as much as it actually did. The trick there is never to say twice or more, you can't overdo it, you actually have to promise almost twice as much as you deliver, 12 instead of 7, not 12 instead of 5. Scientists can't just make numbers up, well they can and do, but there's limits: no getting caught, can't double anything, can't look stupid on television. The second prostitution was sending their hot pharma rep sales team out to "refocus" the doctors on the 12 hour schedule for their drug, despite literally all of their patients saying it never lasted anywhere near that long. In this case I'm saying they got the doctors to believe "science" that were more made-up numbers pulled out of thin air. There were other prostitutions, like with the lawyers that defended them in court, and the nonprofits who sucked up to them publicly for their gifts of ill-gotten gains.
And those pharma sales reps...surely they never actually sleep with the doctors? They just get super hot women for that job just to improve doctor's reading comprehension, like a hot teacher in a middle school, that'll learn those boys real good, surely. [Note: I know you're meant to say it differently, I'm being colloquial]
(lightly edited)
If you would like to know more I recommend you check this out; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sackler_family
Am I OK? And you called me a bot? Are you a bot?
?
You don't actually care if I'm OK. Unless we've met perhaps, what's your name? My name is Daniel Cussen. Have we met?
Get real, medicine is a matter of life and death. Multilevel marketing is harmless if you're selling handicrafts, yeah then it's an immoral marketing technique. In medicine immoral marketing technique are prostitutions. Plural. Not an abstract noun, several counts of the transgression.
Like in Dr. Seuss, "One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish":
One prostitution, two prostitutions...
And if google translate turns "técnicas inmorales de márketing" into "prostitution", general Artificial Intelligence is here. And don't think your English is that amazing, vaidhy.
prostitution (noun): 1. ... 2. the unworthy or corrupt use of one's talents for personal or financial gain. (credit: oxford dictionary of English)
I am somewhat surprised that someone did not think to look for an archaic or disused definition already...
It was a fluke
Dowsing seems like a great way to convince the customer that you should drill where it is convenient for you though.
As with most of these bits of pseudoscience, it's a probable cause generator.
> Vass tells him it’s about a quarter mile. “The advantage of this is you don’t have to be on a property to scan it,” he says. “You can be on a public street and scan your suspect’s yard.”
Oh, and while it can magically find missing people "as far as 75 miles" away, you can't get one.
> One student asks, “Do you mean if you have a missing child, you can take that child’s DNA and put it in that and go to work?”
> “Yeah, absolutely,” Vass says. “It doesn’t take long to find them.”
> “How much does one of those things cost?” another student asks. “I’ll write a check right now.”
> “I’m not selling them right now,” Vass says. “I’m just kind of assisting law enforcement when needed.” He says the device isn’t for sale because he’s concerned about national security issues. “I can tell you what room the president’s in in the White House,” he says. “ I can tell you which house has gold in it.”
And, if it doesn't work when Vass is doing it, it's because a mouse died there. (Which probably describes... everywhere.)
> With the excavation complete, Vass wants to discuss one last thing: the divining rods. “From the holes, it appeared to me that maybe an animal had burrowed down in there,” he tells Ponce. “If an animal like a little mouse died there, you’ll get a false positive. So just pay attention to that in the future.”
For more background, search for scandals related to FBI "bite mark" experts or disgraced former Texas detective Tom Coleman.
You probably need to say how you found the corpse, if was probably labelled 'vaguely' like 'using the technic "n#13" teached by the National Forensic Academy'and I assume no one really looked at it. (or they did but didn't care because they did'n wanted the culprit to get away with having a corpse in his backgarden or wathever happened.
Total speculation of course.
But it is often a permitted investigative/intimidation tactic.
It really feels like the American society (now including the courts apparently) is losing its relationship with objective reality and any semblance of a shared set of ground truth facts. Things have been trending that way for a long while, but it really feels like the Orwellian knob has been jacked up an order of magnitude in the last 24 months.
If we can't agree on some basic rules about what is or is not true about fundamental reality, why even bother having courts or trials to determine higher level truths? A trial about the outcomes of magical/nonsensical processes is meaningless.
This stuff obviously shouldn't make it into the courtroom. The fact that it has means the system is broken, even if these particular people stop peddling this particular bullshit.
Police are incentivised to find whatever thingamajig will support their conclusions. Courts are not equipped to provide meta-review of every forensic claim. And for the bright, rational, scientific minds out there, working in forensics is relatively low-prestige and low-pay.
I am less concerned by the obvious nonsense like this, than I am about the far more dangerous nonsense that comes from legit, credentialed, FBI-endorsed “scientists” which a rational, informed, well intentioned judge or juror might give serious weight, (like bite marks, blood splatter, profiling, etc.)
Laws don't define that, though.
Wanting everyone to approach the world with a scientific, evidence-based mindset doesn't mean they do.
We can't legislate belief any more than we can legislate the value of pi.
Actually in this particular case things are getting better because less and less shit is getting through into the court without reporting and scrutiny, due to the efforts of media and groups like the Innocence Project. Bite mark analysis, hair comparison, blood splatter analysis, lie detector testing, even breathalyzers are getting their due scrutiny and criticism where they haven’t been in the past.
Governments having much of a relationship with objective reality at all is a fairly new phenomenon and very much a product of the Enlightenment. It wasn't too long ago that court astrologers and politicised clergy were intimately involved in decisions that effected the lives of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people. What we're seeing is the erosion of Enlightenment rationalism into what we had before, the state saying 2 + 2 = 5 when it's convenient and browbeating anyone who points out how ridiculous they're being.
>If we can't agree on some basic rules about what is or is not true about fundamental reality, why even bother having courts or trials to determine higher level truths?
I'm sure this exact question went through the mind of Galileo Galilei when he was forced to recant his heliocentric views. Objective reality doesn't care about society's power structures, so society's power structures return the favour.
I think the general trend is one of big improvement, but things are definitely worse now in this regard than they were 2 or 10 years ago.
https://bostonreview.net/articles/nathan-robinson-forensic-p...
Academia has a reproducibility crisis. Forensics has endured its own struggle with credibility. The media is undergoing similar scrutiny. When that which is expected to be trustworthy is proved unreliable, then how does society distinguish between that which is unreliable in design (e.g. dowsing) and that which is unreliable in execution (e.g. academic publications)?
Isn't that largely isolated to psychology and related "soft" sciences? I have not heard of a physics or chemistry reproducibility crisis. Not to mention that dowsing violates basic physics/chemistry that predate any "reproducibility crisis".
You may be right though that people trust science less. This is really funny considering how much science (that has to work) underpins something like an iPhone.
https://www.polityka.pl/jamyoni/1727668,1,czy-jasnowidz-moze...
https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/jasnowidze-w-sluzb...
> Vass tells him it’s about a quarter mile. “The advantage of this is you don’t have to be on a property to scan it,” he says. “You can be on a public street and scan your suspect’s yard.”
So this guy is claiming he can track someone in a closed house from room to room from a pretty reasonable distance away. Ignoring the more obvious problem that this isn't true, if it were true would this require a warrant?
I guess it might depend partially on the mechanism of how it works? Which is of course convenient since there is no formally defined mechanism of how it works. But it's funny to me that the way that the police are getting around needing a warrant is to say, "oh, it's fine, we had probable cause because someone magically invaded your privacy on our behalf." It's a bit like saying, "we have probable cause to search your house because we heard you say something suspicious after we bugged it."
Almost certainly.
"... on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training."
I asked a farmer about this and he said that yes, he uses a "witcher" and that they are good at finding water though they can't tell you how deep (!!). Of course I assumed he was pulling my leg but I later encountered someone on that property wielding a coat hanger to tell this same farmer where to drill.
Well, yeah...
(I'd bet there are surface features that give hints to the underlying hydrology, too.)
Hard to imagine but I’m no geologist.
But the vally sits atop an aquifer so if you’re willing to drill arbitrarily deep you’re pretty much certain to hit water. Thus I find the refusal to specify depth hilarious.
Fun to think about.
This is in N.E. Scotland, back in about 1991. The funny thing was that my dad was a total skeptic on this, and such other 'discredited' things as spoon-bending, and even he had to admit the guy had some not easily explainable talent.