Fuchsia Workstation
fuchsia.dev
fuchsia.dev
The workstation configuration is described as:
> workstation is a basis for a general purpose development environment, good for working on UI, media and many other high-level features. This is also the best environment for enthusiasts to play with and explore.
From https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/development/build/fx#key-pro...
The documentation structure is often atrocious, the are always dozens of recognized but unresolved bugs, those bugs often remain for years, the documentation often is not updated to reflect the state of open bugs so code samples and tutorials are often broken, the bugs are resolved slowly, non-Google pull requests are often left to die on the vine[0], no road maps, the Google employees use an internal build system and the external packages are often broken, and these three words: "Not. A. Priority." If your bug is not an internal Google priority you are basically out of luck. Hope you like maintaining your own patches, for years.
I'm not saying that OSS projects from other large projects don't have similar problems, I'm saying that every Google project I've depended on has had all of these problems.
The idea of my OS being run like this? Absurd.
This just is a guess, but, I'd wager that most Google OSS developers just wanted a fancy corporate job and got stuck interfacing with the public on an OSS project. I don't think that most of them aspired to be OSS developers and it shouldn't be a requirement.
[0]: Just today a two year old bug that I've been watching was closed by merging a pull request that was first opened in early-2020, closed as stale in mid-2021, and re-submitted/merged this week.
Isn't Android run like this? Is the community participation in Fuchsia different from that of Android i.e. Build inside Google and publish the code to AOSP?
Regardless of how 'open-source' android is, I'm grateful for its 'openness'. Cannot imagine mobile compute held solely by walled-gardens and carriers.
Anyways Brian Swetland is the person to thank for those who appreciate the openness of android[1].
> “Peter mentioned something about exclusivity for our first device, which Brian overheard. By the time we got back to our hotel room, Swetland had threatened to resign because ‘I didn’t join Android to become another Danger.’ I was concerned because Brian was so critical to our success, but when I saw him the next day everything was fine.”
> He was strongly in favor of Android’s vision for an open and independent platform. He threatened to resign several times during his time on the Android team over decisions that would have resulted in a closed platform.
[1] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/08/excer...
Unfortunately, Like the parent I've been following couple of bugs for years which Google didn't 'flinch' yet; 'Chromium on Linux not respecting prefers-color-scheme when dark GTK theme is set'[1] is one such bug.
[1] https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=998903...
However, not many new operating systems have a Chrome browser [0] on them and Fuchsia has this, not many people realise how huge this is let alone on a new from the ground up OS.
So I don't think Fuchsia will be going away, in fact I would say it is coming pretty fast.
Whether you like it or not, this tells me that they are targeting the desktop, laptops and chromebooks next.
Enlighten me, why does this matter?
I can't think of any other kind of software that come close. If you can run a modern browser it means that your OS is already quite mature.
This would give them far more control over the direction of the OS, far more control over millions of users, and allow far less tinkering by android users.
https://www.osnews.com/story/133013/fuchsia-gets-support-for...
[1]: <https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~voelker/cse221/papers/qnx-paper92.p...>
The main advantages over Linux are a clean room design, better security-by-design (having a microkernel means the attack surface is way smaller, capabilities means sandboxing-as-a-security-mechanism becomes possible), and more control over the project.
Honestly, I think the other commenters are being way too cynical about this. If this project gains traction, even if Google goes evil with it, forks and community distributions could still happen like they do for Linux, and be immensely beneficial. The sandboxing alone is a huge benefit.
Android is also pretty unapologetically POSIX/Linux and doesn't shy away from exposing that to applications (eg https://developer.android.com/reference/android/system/Os ). So I don't think Fuchsia would replace the Linux kernel in Android. It'd have to be far more rewarding a migration to justify the massive ecosystem breakages that would result (for both apps & OEMS)
Windows XP proved you can do it, but that at least came with a massive (real world) improvement to things like security & stability that were appreciable upgrades to end users.
This is how I run services on my home server. Plex runs in a rootless container under user plex for example.
Also, 5 or 7 years from now, on which OS will Chrome or Chromium run better? Fuchsia or Linux?
For the past 12 months, I've been running Chrome "on Wayland" (without XWayland in between) and although it is definitely usable, there are many small bugs some of which has existed the entire 12 months.
(And will Firefox even be maintained 5 to 7 years from now?)
Exploits in the Linux kernel are very few & far between. How would Fuchsia represent a massive (real world) improvement in Linux over something that basically doesn't happen?
By contrast for the Windows 9x -> NT kernel transition, the 9x kernel (in Windows ME at the time) had rampant worm issues and was notoriously unstable in very significant & practical ways, like plugging in USB devices would trigger BSODs with some regularity.
These days the majority of kernels (Windows, Mac, and Linux) have vanishingly few exploits and are for the most part extremely stable. There's not much to improve on at this level.
> For the past 12 months, I've been running Chrome "on Wayland" (without XWayland in between) and although it is definitely usable, there are many small bugs some of which has existed the entire 12 months.
Note that neither ChromeOS nor Android use Wayland or X11. That compositor fight that desktop Linux can't move on from isn't something that plagues anybody else, so there's nothing for Fuchsia to "fix" there.
That's what fuchsia bullet proofs. Drivers are isolated from the kernel such that an exploitable driver doesn't also give the exploit root access.
Desktop Linux is pretty far behind the curve at this point, but Android/iOS aren't (and increasingly MacOS/Windows are fixing things up)
Fuchsia seems like it'd be an incremental improvement here at best, and "real world" improvements even less clear than that.
That's an interesting take on multiple code execution bugs per year. And not via drivers, but userland-exploitable code in general subsystems.
Unless you're referring to remote code execution, which in the era of ubiquitous web applications (often running involuntarily through advertisements, etc) seems like a distinction without a difference.
We're exclusively talking about the kernel+drivers here. User land exploits are irrelevant (and obviously not something fuchsia will be immune to).
> Unless you're referring to remote code execution
I'm referring to exploits that actually are found in the wild to have caused damage that a change in kernels would have done something to prevent.
Sure, but Android already has that via a user per application for app sandboxing & a very extensive selinux policy set[1]. Which makes the real-world benefit of that seemingly very negligible. There's a huge gap between desktop Linux & Fuschia/Zircon here, but there doesn't seem to be a particularly big gap between Fuschia/Zircon & Android Linux.
1: See all the .te files in the public & prive dirs of https://cs.android.com/android/platform/superproject/+/maste...
Hopefully! It would be a bummer to have to switch to some hipster browser like Suckless Surf (assuming browsers made by advertising companies are not candidates for obvious reasons).
Linux's GUI layer is such a huge weak spot, and it doesn't look like Wayland's gonna fix that (it seems like it's not even set up to address the most serious problems, really).
If they put Fuschia on Android devices & Chromebooks, that'll be about the end of the story for consumer-facing Linux. Then if they can make it work well as a container-hosting server OS and decide to push it for that purpose... well, the year of the Linux anything might be behind us, then.
How hard would it be to add a posix subsystem to Fucshia?
My outsider opinion is that the Oracle lawsuit increased motivation for alternatives to Java (the language), and Google decided to put more wood behind the Dart/Fuchsia arrow.
https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/contribute/governance/rfcs/0...
That said, to your bigger point -- I think the way to pull off a brand new OS in today's world is to write something that scratches an itch that a small-ish group of people have. Do it well enough, and it will grow into something bigger. In fact this is exactly how Linux got going. It will work again, guaranteed.
Currently, they're at around ~WinXP level support
[1]: https://reactos.org/
It was even on the verge of being a microkernel and it could run a super light weight virtualization (for the lack of a better word) system: OS personas.
It would be interesting to get Windows NT NextGen, true.
However, google isn't the only player in this. They need to get all their vendors to rewrite drivers for their new kernels. They'd also need everyone using android, for example, to get on board writing drivers.
Meanwhile, one of the largest players, samsung, is looking at making their own OS.
For an already fractured ecosystem, it just doesn't seem like it's something that can be successfully pulled off. Maybe if google/android was more like apple it'd be doable. But not where there are so many players that need to be brought in the mix.
Personally I think they have grander visions than just Android.
My second theory is that it exists as leverage, to scare the Linux kernel maintainers into thinking that they could lose their biggest userbase (Android) and make them more compliant.
Not so sure about that. It's not like any of them collect royalties. If anything it just adds to their maintenance workload.
My impression when it was announced was it started as a really neat personal project by some long-time OS development nerds (I mean that in a good way) that then escaped the gates and then it became a hammer in search of nails.
It ended up eating the project I was on, and was many many years late in the process of doing so, breaking schedule promise after schedule promise. I kept waiting for management to put a lid on it, but they seemed to have infinite headcount and budget, and patience from mgmt to support their mission to rewrite the world while we struggled to get time and resources to maintain the codebase we already had which was shipped as a profitable product and sitting in millions of people's homes with good reviews.
Google has OS politics dysfunction... especially in hardware devices where there are almost a half dozen Linux distributions fighting it out for marketshare. Fuchsia just added to that craziness.
None of this changes that the rollout for these things could be done incrementally in parallel with the existing Linux based platforms, with an eye to produce shared components whenever possible instead of rewriting the world. The Fuchsia folks were notorious for their obsession with purity of essence, and because they had the headcount and $$, they just did what they wanted.
Were I to guess, the prime motivation for Fuchsia would be to have a phone or IoT device which could regularly receive kernel updates without needing hardware vendor interaction. That's the biggest sore spot for linux. (not that I think Fuchsia's kernel would require a bunch of updates due to how simple it is).
This is an outsider's perspective. Definitely a big expensive project that reminds me of other big expensive google projects which seem DoA.
And yeah I think you're pretty on about the driver/vendor comment.
How does the lack of hardware vendor cooperation get improved by moving the problem into userspace?
You still need/want the hardware vendors to create drivers and update them, which they frequently don't.
I guess it's better because you're just going to be content with binary blobs?
From the outside looking in I thought the security model could really help Google lower splash radius from zero days? The feature-set certainly sounds appealing just reading the marketing blurb. [1]
With any luck in the next iteration Google will create a Fuschia ISO or VMDK so people who want to give it a spin without building it can quickly get a taste of the environment. The fact you can at least run it in an emulator is definitely a step up from requiring dedicated hardware, which was the previous process. [2]
[1] https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/concepts/principles/secure [2] https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/development/hardware/paving
How can they solve that with software? It's an incentive/economic problem. Hardware vendors don't want to play nice, there's no incentive for them. It's better if they're jerks and never release their stuff or do it years after their hardware stops being relevant.
Now if they have Microsoft/apple level os penetration you can be damn sure it's gonna be only serving google search. Just to ensure/build more moat aroing Google search can justify infinite cost
Unless they want to do crazy things like sell to the EU market, in which case they're back to having to offer multiple search engines.
After years in this industry and seeing so many things like this just fail, my perspective is that the "right" way to do it (rewrites/replatforms) is build shared components and have teams that deploy to both and so live in both worlds.
This way the old gets the new, and the new has to live and breathe the reasons for the compromises that the old lived through the first time. And you don't end up with a "legacy" team and a "future" team.
Example: I tried (a bit half-heartedly and I was low-status so nobody cared) to pitch that we write a new screenreader for Home Hub rather than brutally kludging in the one from ChromeOS. A new screenreader that could be shared with Fuchsia, as they were writing one from scratch. If building from scratch why not build one as a component that can be shared? That approach was seen as a total non-starter by the people I talked to. Fuchsia got to write their shiny new thing basically in isolation and barely interacted with us poor folk who had to keep maintaining the actual-existing screenreader deployed on several million devices in people's homes. Mainly fell to my friend/coworker who was a hero.
BTW we both quit the same day.
https://cs.opensource.google/fuchsia/fuchsia/+/main:src/ui/a...
IBM has, what a half dozen between mainframes and AIX and older ones?
Apple has their own OS of course.
Microsoft of course.
Facebook? Netflix? Amazon? Such second-rate "tech" companies, tsk tsk.
The technical reason, I'd say is that the access control model in Android is a kludge on top of the Linux kernel, and it is more difficult to sandbox apps. Fuchsia was made to support Android's model, and in a capability-oriented OS you get sandboxing by default.
A political reason is to not be dependent on Linux, but I'm sure that other people have opinions about there being more.
Move away from the Linux kernel, because it limits their freedom of restricting users freedoms.
If I'm right, the ones who should be worried are Red Hat(/IBM) and Ubuntu. Maybe Amazon, depending on what exactly Google's thinking and how much they weaponize the ability to refrain from open sourcing some of the code.
There isn't much information about the capabilities of workstation. Is it a GUI OS? Can one run Flutter apps on it?
IMO this is more or less an experiment which if successful, will end up merging/replacing Android and Chrome OS into a single OS. Android and Chrome runtimes can be ported to Fuschia and the underlying OS can be swapped on many devices. New devices can ship with Fuschia + an android compatibility layer. Developers would be able to ship native Fuschia or android apps. Would work on phones, IoT, Chromebooks and could be install-able on desktops.
This is all just speculation though and a lot of things need to go right for this to happen but I'd imagine this would be the ideal/desired outcome for its creators.
Android is already being ported to Fuchsia for quite some time now.
You can start with this one,
https://android-review.googlesource.com/c/platform/manifest/...
It would just be a slower, less secure option with years of cruft and a huge dependency base they don’t control.
They are only upstreaming to decrease the development efforts in Linux kernel itself, tomorrow that kernel can be Zirkon instead.
But yes, I agree, I think getting the Linux kernel out of Android is an obvious next step.
Does Android just become another Fuschia “product” at that point the same way the workstation and a stripped down IoT one are?
I’d argue it goes further than that but my reasoning kind of gets pretty deep into how Fuschia for example handles things like app delivery etc…
I think Android will continue to exist as a supported interop style solution for years but ultimately you will end up seeing a total transition to 100% Fuschia across all Google platforms (server, IoT, Workstations, mobile devices etc).
https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/hal-types
> "HALs expressed in HAL interface definition language (HIDL) or Android interface definition language (AIDL). These HALs replace both conventional and legacy HALs used in earlier versions of Android. In a Binderized HAL, the Android framework and HALs communicate with each other using binder inter-process communication (IPC) calls. All devices launching with Android 8.0 or later must support binderized HALs only."
While Linux folks are still arguing if Rust makes sense to be adopted in the kernel and what features still need to be stabilized,
https://source.android.com/setup/build/rust/building-rust-mo...
And as I pointed out in another comment, here are the ART commits supporting Fuchsia,
https://android-review.googlesource.com/q/fuchsia
I should also note that while people pat themselves on the back, because Android uses the Linux kernel, from Google's point of view that is an implementation detail, not supported as public API for NDK code.
https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis
From NDK point of view for app developers, the underlying OS is a generic OS, with ISO C, ISO C++ standard libraries plus a couple of additional stuff. Something that Termux guys have a hard time to swallow.
I don't really understand the excitement around flutter.
On the flip side there's the odd programming language, the bundle size, the game-engine like rendering (seemingly wasteful, but may improve as hardware evolves).
I have no idea what, if anything, Flutter’s canvas-based approach has to do with localization.
Also Flutter exposes a hidden DOM with accessibility information for the canvas. This might someday be superseded by a system like AOM: Accessibility Object Model, which is an API for directly constructing an accessibility tree for non-DOM content like a canvas.
Flutter demos have a localization dropdown for selecting different locales, of which the gallery demo at least supports many, well beyond FIGS: https://gallery.flutter.dev/#/
Note those demos have other problems that make me crazy, like the copious overuse of non-selectable text. Why the default "Text" widget is non-selectable is a total mystery to me: https://api.flutter.dev/flutter/widgets/Text-class.html You have to instead use the "SelectableText" widget: https://api.flutter.dev/flutter/material/SelectableText-clas...
I have plenty of complaints about Flutter, but accessibility and localization aren't among them.
See SkParagraph: https://skia.googlesource.com/skia/+/refs/heads/main/modules...
And the experimental SkText API: https://skia.googlesource.com/skia/+/refs/heads/main/experim...
That flutter even got this far strongly suggests the people making it are monocultural. That they are thinking "maybe someday there will be a solution" is not the right way to approach building an inclusive GUI framework in this day and age.
I see what you mean about Flutter having to download the 16+ MB CJK fonts and lack of visibility for extensions trying to read DOM text. It's possible there's fixes for some of these: the browser local font API could make your local system's fonts available to the Flutter runtime, which would be significantly faster, and the accessibility object model could make content visible to extensions (but only if they were rewritten to read AOM data!).
Also TIL about "reconversion" in CJK IMEs. Pretty neat!
I'm working with some of these same issues right now with a web-based PDF viewer app that runs PDFium in WebAssembly. Trying to make PDF content visible to extensions, IMEs, etc. the same way DOM content is turns out to be quite difficult.
Still, all of this works out of the box with DOM content. It's frustrating how many of these things have given up on "render to DOM".
Just look at Apple's rollout of Swift. Early on it was slow and painful to use for a long time. In the last year or so it's really matured a lot, but it's been a long road and we're still not there yet for a lot of use cases.
Since Fuchsia was started, Google has committed to maintaining a stable kernel ABI for AOSP, what they call the GKI. This is a huge amount of work for kernel developers at Google but it will allow (in theory) updates to newer kernels without the need to update these old drivers. I believe ChromeOS is also going to use the GKI (not 100% sure about this though).
I think the big question for Fuchsia is how successful the GKI initiative is, since it takes a lot of wind out of the sails of Fuchsia. Linux already works, has a lot more features than Fuchsia, and has much better performance.
Fuchsia is really close to the Chromium team and inherited gn and most of the supporting repo management and build tooling.
gn is less strict than Blaze and Google probably doesn't want to maintain both Bazel and gn forever, so it stands to reason that gn will eventually be replaced with Bazel. That will be a really large effort so it's probably not happening anytime soon and will take a while.
Android, which uses yet another home grown Blaze-alike build tool - Soong - is already in the process of migrating to Bazel. Moving from Soong to Bazel is probably much easier than going from Ninja/Make to Soong due to how conceptually similar those are.
Most people use Bazelisk: https://github.com/bazelbuild/bazelisk
Blaze owns the whole thing, executes the toolchain, etc.
Blaze is also very much built for the monorepo model we had in Google3. Not that it won't work in other scenarios, but that's where it came from: one repo and when it comes to third party dependencies, one version, etc. And cross-compiling on it felt awkward. GN/Ninja support for multiple toolchains and cross-compiling felt more thought-through, by necessity.
Well, something I'll test hopefully somewhat soon, as I want to test bazel explicitly in very crosscompiling environment...
I'd argue this is still the case right now, but toolchain support in Bazel is maturing quickly.
I've cloned hybris [0], it seems to have 48k lines of Rust source code. Maybe there are other components that I'm missing. Fuchsia [1] on the other hand had 2.1 million lines of Rust in Dec 2020 [2], and according to tokei has 3.3 million as of now (8b51db9e2b809, March 28 2022), more than it has C++ (2.2 million) and C (366k) combined.
For comparison, a full check out of the rust-lang/rust repo with all the submodules which contains rustc as well as tools like cargo, rustfmt or clippy, and their test suites, contains 2.1 million lines.
But yeah you can come up with several definitions of "serious". Is an OS that an entire company bases its revenues on more serious than a research project that some call as a way to maintain senior developer retention, but may one day replace components of one of the most deployed end user operating systems in the world?
[0]: https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris
[1]: https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/fuchsia/
[2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/k9djda/expanding_fuch...
Yep, we are much smaller than Google and when you're fitting stuff into an embedded space, you need things to be much, much smaller. We couldn't fit the output of all that code on the chip even if we did write it.
If you do `cargo vendor` to make the comparison equal in that sense, loc (which I use instead of tokei for no real reason) says there's... 100MM lines of Rust? That seems like quite the bug, lol.
> Is an OS that an ....
Yep, agree 100%. It's part of why I found it so interesting you chose "serious" as the term; not that it's bad of course, but made me think of exactly this question. I have no idea what the answer is. I do think it's a good word to describe a difference between something intended for production and a hobby OS, of which we both know there are many in Rust.
Basically Android is OSS linux with a lot of proprietary drivers that are not under the control of Google. And a lot of those are provided by Qualcomm. What they provide is effectively an OS inside an OS. Linux is a somewhat hostile environment for proprietary drivers and it necessitates some technical steps to insulate against the 'viral' nature of the GPL.
Google likes their dependency on Qualcomm just about as much as Apple does. It would not surprise me if they eventually move to their own in house 5G stack and I bet that would be a proprietary fuchsia exclusive. Proprietary ensures you get your software from Google (or Qualcomm). And making it exclusive to Fuchsia ensures they have full control over the combined package.
Chinese manufacturers are also insulating against being dependent on Qualcomm. E.g. Huawei has their own 5G modem and is of course also in the base station market.
We shall be worried. My feeling and past experience tells me "Don't use it. Don't support it. Or we will suffer."
At Microsoft, our massive servers churn out nightly Windows image overnight usually 5pm-10am next morning.
10 years ago, you would be able to compile your whole BSD kernel and userland (plus KDE) in a week or so, while just checking occasionally whether it's completed or not. This was on a dual core, off the shelf desktop computer.
A week also seems pretty long for BSD. I'm sure I spun up FreeBSD with Gnome 2 in ~24hours once (it was definitely less than a week because I had a weekend to prepare it for a house party). Though admittedly I didn't compile base. But this was a machine from around 2005 sort of era, maybe even earlier.
I work on the android operating system and very rarely compile the whole thing from scratch in development environments. Incremental builds plus adb sync (think rsync between compiled artifacts in host and device) make it into a manageable workflow.
Even incrementally, it takes a few minutes to see your changes and that can be a source of frustration for newcomers who are used to instant feedback. Being productive requires making good decisions on how often and what to compile as well as strategies for filling up compilation time.
One day, I stepped away and had a particularly intimidating voice say "your build has failed" and apparently knocked out my headphones. I came back just in time to hear that, and see a couple coworkers jump at the sound.
After that, I was much more consistent at disabling sound when I stepped away. I got a little teasing about that day, but generally it worked great.
Lately I've actively tried not to do that (it's a hard habit to break, and I still feel guilt sometimes), though.
With slower cycles, I think more about how much to try before submitting work. Some times I feel comfortable pounding out quite a bit of code. Other times, I know there's some subtlety so I need to double check things. I don't want to stumble on forgetting a const declaration, or something silly like that. Iterations are slower, but you can spend time in flow thinking harder about each loop.
Although, sometimes, I do just stare at the console waiting for feedback. That's usually a good time to go to the bathroom and maybe grab a snack.
Not necessarily multitasking. Just being careful about what plates are spinning, and which I can set down or pick up between steps.
Type checking is still a very quick part of compile, so it can still support a "fast cycle" workflow if most simple errors are detected via incompatible types. You just need to go all-in on type-driven development, rather than simple reliance on unit tests.
but yeah, types are great. Quickcheck is great too. But you'll have to pry my oracles from my cold dead hands. Computers show me over and over how stupid I am. Yeah, if I have a regression, I'm adding a specific test for that.
I know at least for me, I sit in quiet contemplation and think while the project is compiling. I expect the context switch of going between writing docs and writing code on every compile would be too much for my brain. Is it managers making you feel like you need to be doing something else while your code is compiling? I guess I just never felt like I was being unproductive while my code was compiling.
Some of the packing steps are also probably lossy (eg. Take this super high poly count model, and cut away 99% of the polygons). If you skip that culling step, the game probably won't run.
And yes, the client itself usually can't read the raw data, and even if it could there is not enough ram on consoles to load everything as-is. The workstations we use for development all have 128GB of ram just so you can load the map and all models in-editor.
>>It's surprising people are willing to put up with this shit at this in this day and age
All major APIs, the SDKs for PS5/Xbox are all only provided in C++ so it's almost a necessity. Same reason why we all use Windows - the platform tools are only provided for windows.
It is the language those managed language runtimes are written on, the main language for GPGPU programming, two major compiler building frameworks, and works out of box in all OS SDKs while providing me a way not to deal with C flaws unless forced by third party libraries.
I could be spending my time creating libraries for other ecosystems, but I have better things to do with time.
It wasn't because it was lacking in capabilities, rather the authors decided they would spend resources elsewhere.
Naturally it has the side effect to reinforce the use of the languages that are already being used.
For things like AAA games and OS development, I'm not convinced simply picking another language solves the problem. At least not while keeping all the same benefits. C builds faster, sure, but it doesn't have the same feature set.
I'm getting 150 ms of iteration time on small cases, 200-300 on average ones
The data thing though, that sounds like your engine is poorly optimized for development time. There should be a way to work with data without repacking everything.
just 3 hours would be very nice. clasp also needs about a day.
And I think this is mostly a windows problem with the synchronous filter drivers? On linux you can hook filesystem accesses asynchronously.
Nobody said it was.
> If the AV slows down productivity then it's up to office politics to decide whether the perceived security/compliance is more important than developer time or whether they should talk to their AV vendor to optimize scanning or whatever.
I agree and everyone here is assuming the GP hasn't already tried that. Sometimes, and particularly in enterprise orgs, making minor quality of life improvements for developers is an impossible task. Sometimes you don't realize just how these places can operate until you've worked in one.
> And I think this is mostly a windows problem with the synchronous filter drivers? On linux you can hook filesystem accesses asynchronously.
Yeah it's very specifically a Windows issue. Windows IO is a lot more event driven from what I understand which makes Linux faster at randomly accessing files but virus scanners more effective (not that I have a particularly high opinion for them to begin with) on Windows.
Unfortunately, Windows is what 99% of enterprise orgs IT teams provision for their staff.
Those enterprise AV have macOS, GNU/Linux and even iOS/Android versions for a reason.
During university, our computer security class involved finding exploits in Firefox. It took 8 hours to compile on our average student grade compute. There were probably faster incremental ways to build, but navigating the Firefox open source code base was hard to entry point as a student. Effectively, most people got to compile Firefox a few times, but no one went further than making any code changes or discoveries. Navigating the Firefox build and tool chain is probably an undergrad course in and of itself, much less make any meaningful merge request or finding a vulnerability.
Overall, horribly designed curriculum. The expectation was for undergrads to find a zero day in Firefox. The professor was a researcher from Microsoft, but didn’t seem like he had realistic expectations for undergrads. Maybe they were throwing darts, hoping one student finds an novel exploit, and they can be cited. In the end, no student found an exploit or made any code changes. I was the only who found a DoS code payload for Firefox, but it was neither a zero day (poking around a known less developed API) nor high risk. It merely crashed Firefox on any webpage which contained this 2 lines of JavaScript. In the end, I got the lowest grade in the class because the professor changed the rubric after no one else found anything. Finding this exploit went from 80% of the grade to 5%, and participation credit went from 10% to 70%.
I had a similar but not as bad experience. The lecturer was brand new and wanted us to design a programming language after a single vague PowerPoint and the worst introduction to yacc or lex or whatever they are. We were also undergraduates.
After several weeks of complaints he provided an example language and parser etc. Still it was simply too hard and in the end nobody could do it. I believe I managed to add a minor feature to his example language as my submission. I managed to get a reasonably high grade simply because I freely admitted I struggled with the entire task but could explain language theory and made comparisons with other languages I know and what features I would have added if I could.
Some people totally wrote that whole module off and planned around the scoring system where one failed module in a year would just be discounted and an averaged score created.
What, the 3 hour compile time? That's an OS+utils, there are projects that take more... Ever tried compiling QT+KDE?
I just tested on my machine (i7-6900k, 8C/16T from 6 years ago), building 5.15: qtbase, qtdeclarative, graphicaleffects,multimedia,quick controls2, serial port, svg, wayland and websockets takes 8 minutes total... it's hardly the end of the world and that's already more than needed for 99.9% of Qt apps. And I don't even use ccache.
make -j16 5343,12s user 307,95s system 1198% cpu 7:51,67 total
~/libs/qt5/configure -nomake tests -nomake examples -debug -confirm-license -opensource -platform linux-clang -linker lldBut adding the Yocto overhead (entire bootloader, kernel, and then fetch/decompress/build all the packages) takes a bit more time. And Qwebkit isn't trivial either.
Once Yocto has it all in sstate-cache then it's only like 15 minutes for a total rebuild.
Same gig though. Set a programming assignment that's way too hard for the class, because they hadn't been taught programming properly (in this case, implement a few simple graph algos so hardly Firefox 0-day level). Realize too late that nobody can pass the assignment and retroactively change the marking criteria to be entirely based on writeup. Result: as one of the only people in the class who actually submitted the full three working solutions, I got one of the lowest grades, because "You explained the algorithm in 'detailed code comments'? Do you think I have time to read student's code? It needed to be submitted in a Word document alongside the submission."
This was at a UK Russell Group university, supposedly one of the elite. IMO universities are jokes. They were crap at teaching decades ago and that was before they were overrun with radical ideological activism. They're simply good at hiding the truth because academics are treated like gods - nobody believes students who say their teachers are terrible at their own subjects.
"University" typically means TAs the entire undergrad, right?
I'm sure it was not intentional at all, but it is pretty funny.
Complete with lower pay (or at least less career opportunities) for working extra hard on the Death March project about to be cancelled.
Not too bad for an OS and all the utilities and programs that it comes with. The Linux equivalent will be compiling Gentoo (probably a lot longer than 3 hours, even on good hardware).
In 2003, as part of a university assignment, I used a CORBA ORM called 'mico' (or 'micro', not too sure) written in glorious C++ with as much use of templates that the developers could use, and that took a full 4 days to compile on my aging 1998 laptop[1].
When I switched to an expensive 2003 desktop a few months later[2] the compilation of the same package with the same flags on the same OS (Slackware) took less than five hours.
It is amazing what speed improvements we saw between 1995 and 2005. Just between 1995 (when I bought my 486 desktop) and 2000 (when I was using a pentium pro or something better than that), machines had roughly doubled in performance at the same price.
I really doubt that machines from five years ago are going to be that much better than one from today.
[1] As a student, I counted myself lucky to even have a laptop of my own, instead of booking time at the university lab.
[2] The compilation experience convinced me to save for a few months to get something expensive with lots of RAM
Yocto is not entirely unlike Gentoo - recipes describe components of the system, which is built from source - but with the addition of a fairly sophisticated caching scheme, where the input to a recipe is hashed and the hash used to store the outcome, which is then reused in future builds (and the cache can be shared by different builders) unless the input changes. The other key feature of Yocto is that the system is composable in layers, where upper layers add, extend or override recipes from the lower layers. Layers can and are provided by different parties (e.g. BSP layers from HW vendors or their SW partners).
Yocto Linux is used by projects which need to be able to guarantee that they can bootstrap their OS build, customize the build (e.g. filter out use of certain licenses or use a specific toolchain) and to manage SW supply chain (the layer idea, and then in a business contact something like RASIC for the layers).
To sum it up, "rebuilding the entire Linux OS w/ caching" is absolutely the norm in embedded dev, as is having a compiler farm doing this hooked into your CI. Edge nodes like developer laptops then access the CI build farm's caches to make a local build bearable, with the caveat that you don't get incremental builds at the component level this way, so usually you still want to either dev separately against an SDK (or reuse the build root) or at least keep your components small and modular enough to not make it painful.
Automotive, network equipment (e.g. routers), stage/production equipment (mixers and other networked A/V gear, etc.) and many other parts of the SW world work this way.
Hacker News is mostly exposed to web development and desktop Linux/mobile app development, which are pretty different. Indeed, perhaps the most surprising thing is how different desktop Linux development is from embedded Linux development and how little cross-pollination between these communities is taking place.
If you develop your for desktop Linux, the distro on your box also serves as its SDK - you just install a bunch of -dev packages from your package manager and build against the host. Or perhaps a Docker image as build env in some cases. But you generally never rebuild/bootstrap the OS, which in embedded is the primary unit of work (with mitigations such as caching).
One side-effect of this is that embedded systems and desktop systems tend to approach updates/OTA differently. In the package/binary-based systems, OTAs come in via the package manager. Embedded systems historically tend to go for full system image updates with again some mitigations such as binary deltas, and then A/B partition update schemes. Or a partitioning of the update content that is orthogonal to the partitioning that goes into the OS image build. Lately there's a trend for seperating applications out into container images that get deployed seperately from the base OS image, and thoughts about containers that can move between embedded devices on the edge and the cloud infra in the back.
No need for the habitual google defamation exercise here.
I can only guess that it's because of HW drivers?
Isn't the entire business reason behind Fuchsia that Android is a bit "too open source" and they want more control?
They are probably going to get some free bugfixes from "enthusiasts" and then close source a sufficient amount of it for "security reasons". Or whatever serves their "not evil" purposes.
But at least SOME of the code is in the open.
I mean... yeah, it does?
There's good reason to be suspicious in general, but if any time they do something non-evil the immediate reaction is "okay but this is probably actually evil in some convoluted way", then that suspicion becomes paranoia.
Even if they put out closed-source modules like they do with Chrome, having an open-source microkernel with a focus on sandboxing and security, with the resources of a major corporation behind it, is incredibly beneficial for the ecosystem.
It's more like building it, rather than using it here.
"Release early, release often".
Or is it basically just for Google employees working on Google devices?
However, I think when that happens a lot of interesting opportunities will I inevitably open up because it provides what I think is an extremely compelling story for a lot of people you might not initially anticipate. For example, from a security and just general maintainability point of view I would expect it to become the new obvious choice inside of organisations for those who aren’t still tied to Windows specific desktop applications.
I don't know if this is still the case but the mission was absolutely to replace Android. Many at Google believe Android to be unsalvageable on two fronts: drivers and the general ecosystem.
It has been pitched internally at various products and (AFAIK) only found traction thus far on Nest hubs. It was heavily pushed for Chromecast but I guess nothing came of that.
I'm not an OS expert by any means but I am unconvinced about the viability of a microkernel architecture beyond theory. Security is an often-cited issue with context switching between user and kernel space.
Most of this thread has been focused on how Fuchsia will supplant Linux on Nest, Android and ChromeOS devices. However I immediately think about it will be used for Automobiles where RTOSes and prioritizing/scheduling operations deterministically is critical.
I'm sure Fuchsia could be leveraged for autonomous robots too, but since they gave up Boston Dynamics, not so sure anymore. Perhaps they extracted what they needed from BD before selling them off. Again I wonder what OS Tesla uses for their robots, both Grohmann and Optimus.
I have for many years thought that there was or so will be a battle in the RTOS space where Blackberry (QNX) would find themselves in a very similar situation they were in back when the iPhone and Android came onto the scene. (I know they were very different departments. Don't even know if they owned QNX at the time. Don't even know if you could consider them the same company anymore.)
There is obviously a paradigm shift taking place in the automotive industry where the incumbent/ICE manufacturers have to make a choice of continuing down the path to oblivion or pivot to compete with the likes of Tesla, NIO, Polestar, etc... The RTOS will play an important part in the transition, and Google knows this.
Google wants to be part of the stack and I believe they believe Fuchsia is the answer. Actually, I'd go so far as to say they want to own (or be the linchpin) the stack and again Fuchsia combined with Android Automobile (not Android Auto) is their attempt to move in while the incumbents are preoccupied with the other difficulties involved in this transition.
If I was QNX/BB, I would be very concerned. Imagine the world of Automobiles resembling that of the Smartphone... You basically have two choices; Apple or a myriad of others all running their own flavor of Android... think Tesla or all the others running Android Automotive (Fuchsia).
NVidia uses a mix of QNX (for production) and GNU/Linux (for development) for their vehicles software.
https://developer.nvidia.com/drive/driveos
Note the safety critical remark for QNX, when human lifes are at stake, one gets to use OSes where safety matters as first priority.
Who will show in court from Linux RTOS contributors?
https://blackberry.qnx.com/en/industries/connected-autonomou...
Could you elaborate? I'm simply curious why people would feel that way about Android. By the ecosystem, do you mean the fact that apps are primarily Java? That they're poorly made? What makes the drivers unsalvageable? Proprietary blobs interacting with the Linux kernel? Something else?
It seems like a new kernel would have minimal drivers, but maybe it would offer a better way of having proprietary drivers? Linux doesn't have a stable device driver ABI so maybe that is making it hard for Google to update Android without the phone manufacturer being involved in the updating?
I'm just curious what people see as the problems with Android that would require a new OS to fix. For example, if the problem is poorly made apps, that problem will follow you to a new OS if you let them publish for the new OS - and if you truly don't want them, you could remove them from the Play Store.
Compare this to Windows. Drivers were once the bane of Windows and a huge problem for stability. Microsoft invested heavily in this and it seems to have worked. The Windows driver interface is I believe stable and has been for many years at this point and drivers themselves are more insulated from the kernel. Not completely but it's better in many aays.
Android really has its hands tied here by what Linux does. You may agree or disagree with that but the above is a view held by influential people within Fuchsia.
The ecosystem is really around the process by which updates are released. This is a tedious process of maintaining many Android trees and updating them with new Android releases. These need to be patched onto the existing trees or the changes made to the existing trees need to be ported onto the new Android tree. This is a nontrivial task either way. It's why Android phones get limited updates and those updates can lag behind the official release by months or even years.
This isn't a situation Google likes so some want to make the manufacturer responsible for less, most notably the drivers.
Remember that Samsung is motivated to sell handsets, not update existing handsets.
Don’t get me wrong. Windows did a lot of work on driver stability. But I think cletus is too narrowly focused, and misunderstanding the context around Android and Fuschia.
Fuschia has been described as a replacement for both ChromeOS and Android, with a goal of solving a range of problems (not just driver compatibility) and unifying the target development platform (beyond the somewhat-limited Android-for-ChromeOS options that exist today).
It does not seem to me that it’s primarily about fixing Android driver compat, which could probably be done in simpler ways (and, as others have noted, Treble sort of kind of exists to mitigate).
(I also was amused that Cletus claimed that Windows drivers run in userspace—generally not true—while claiming that there are no real-world microkernel OSes.)
But also yes some drivers don't run in kernel space! https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/wd...
This is often clear in graphics cards, the main problem is old cards don't get support for newer versions of DirectX, but otherwise continue to work.
Linux explictly doesn't support this -- that means when some hardware manufacturer makes a closed source driver, it's very hard to update the kernel. Unfortunately it seems many bits of important phone hardware (like stuff Qualcomm makes) only have closed source drivers.
I've never heard anyone in real life say "I bought a Samsung phone last time and it was good but it didn't get any updates after 3 years so I'm never buying one again."
Few years ago it was not like that, I don't remember there were official promises and you typically got a year or two of updates. Until recently, long support was always mentioned as a big plus for iPhones.
Now every review I look mentions years of support as a big thing. I also see quite often on forums "I still have year of updates for my device, I'll skip this year's model" so people do think about it.
It's possible only techies look at these things (and read reviews and online discussions), but even so it's still better than it was.
[1] https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_pledges_4_os_updates_5_year...
Even though this is true, they still offer the longest updates.
> Android really has its hands tied here by what Linux does. You may agree or disagree with that but the above is a view held by influential people within Fuchsia.
I don't really think driver robustness is an issue here. The number of phones I've seen, used or heard about with driver problems is zero.
Add in the fact that phones are almost never rebooted (compared to desktops/laptops and other computers), and the driver situation looks incredibly stable.
I was disappointed to find that on many models of phone, there was not a single active user who had not experienced at least one random reboot caused by a kernel panic a year after purchase.
The fact it boots straight back up to the lockscreen means many users will never notice that it's happened though.
The actual stats here will help; across a few million devices, random reboots unrelated to software or drivers will be expected.
You're saying that, one some models, the device never crashed. On others, there was at least one crash. That's at least a 0.00001% crash rate. That's unbelievably good. At that rate it's probably a hardware error, not a driver error.
If you used a different threshold we'd have a better idea - how many models have a crash rate of 10%? 5%?
> The fact it boots straight back up to the lockscreen means many users will never notice that it's happened though.
That provides further evidence that the money being poured into a new kernel to alleviate a problem that happens so rarely it can't be distinguished from statistical noise, and when it does happen, is almost never noticed by the user, is money being wasted.
The return here is not proportionate to the problem being experienced, and the solution is definitely not proportionate to the money being spent.
For at least one user, yes.
But there are many users who maybe only turn the phone on 5 minutes a day to check messages - so it isn't really odd for a few users to never see a crash.
I don't really know anyone who uses their smartphone for less than 5m per day, but that's irrelevant anyway.
The question is still: is the money being put into preventing this problem at all proportionate to the size of the problem?
If there's a problem that no one notices[1], is a solution really worth spending millions of dollars per year over five years?
[1] So few users complained about this it's not even a statistical rounding error.
edit: sure, bit flips will happen at scale, but they’re not as common as bad threaded programming.
Most drivers in the embedded world come from the BSPs (board support packages) of the SoC vendor. And holy hell wherever you look at leaked source code (cough Mediatek) it's madness. Nothing is upstreamed because the quality is so shoddy that you'd get Linus Torvalds into a proper ragepost if you dared to post it for submission, and as a result Android and most of embedded Linux is stuck at outright fossilized kernels where it's extremely hard to backport anything from newer kernels - which is also the reason why so few Android phones are supported for longer than two or three years after initial release. The SoC vendors simply won't provide BSP updates because of the effort involved.
And forget about copyright requiring vendors to open-source everything in Linux kernel space... most simply do not care and there is absolutely no will of enforcing it on a large scale - to the contrary, people trying to do so got booted off [1].
The proprietary blobs for components like WiFi/BT/GPU are only the icing on the cake. Barely any effort made to ensure it actually holds up in real world usage, only enough to pass qualification testing. IIRC Apple had at least one RF vendor make a completely new firmware for their chips because the official one was riddled with bugs.
[1]: https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2016/jul/19/patrick-mchardy-g...
Software Freedom Conservancy's approach on the other hand is to require compliance. Through their lawsuit against Vizio they are also aiming to make it possible for any user of GPLed but non-compliant software to sue for compliance. Hopefully this will change the amount of spontaneous GPL compliance for Linux in the industry.
https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/principles.htm...
Got a link for that Apple firmware thing? Sounds interesting. We really need open firmware for hardware devices. There is some for very old hardware though.
So what? If it makes them comply then I'm fine with it. No one else has taken on the fight except for a handful of large companies (Vizio and a settop-box-manufacturer whose name I forgot are the only cases I remember). Everyone else, particularly in the phone and embedded sector, outright shits on the GPL for decades now.
Particularly Google would be in an excellent position - they possess the Android trademark, they could require manufacturers and SoC vendors to properly open-source their stuff as part of the Android license, even for AOSP-powered devices.
Governments could also step in, similarly to enforcement of patents, but no government in the world has done anything to establish legal protection for open source that does not rely on open-source authors filing lawsuits on their own! Just imagine customs going on a trade fair and confiscating every device where the GPL and other OSS licenses are not obliged. After two rounds, no one would dare mess around any longer.
> Got a link for that Apple firmware thing?
Unfortunately not, that was many years ago and I might be remembering it wrong :(
Conservancy are doing the Vizio lawsuit, do a lot of behind-the-scenes work, supported the VMware lawsuit, did a lawsuit against Best Buy/Samsung/Westinghouse/JVC and did one of the earliest compliance actions against Linksys resulting in the OpenWRT project:
https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/past-lawsuits.... https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/enforcement-st...
Harald Welte of gpl-violations.org did a lot of GPL compliance actions in Germany, admittedly none recently.
It would be great if Google could do GPL compliance actions against Android vendors, but they seem to be moving away from GPL projects instead of embracing them, so that seems very unlikely.
There was already a case where a Linux copyright holder got the USA customs department to withhold import of some GPL violating tablets. I think that eventually resulted in compliance, the details are somewhere on LWN, I forget the URL though.
I think if the Vizio lawsuit is concluded in favor of Conservancy, that is probably the best chance for widespread GPL compliance.
An infringement lawsuit can't make anyone comply because a court will only ever order an infringer to pay monetary damages. An infringer might settle a lawsuit by agreeing to comply with GPL terms instead of paying damages, but that's not something a court would order.
Theoretically, if the GPL were a contract (an exchange of promises) and not a license (a grant subject to conditions), then a court could order a party in breach to comply with its terms. A court would only do that, however, if monetary damages were insufficient to compensate the non-breaching party.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_remedy
The Conservancy lawsuit against Vizio contends that the GPL is also a contract and that downstream users are third-party beneficiaries of that contract, so they should be able to sue for compliance with the contract. Its a really interesting approach and I hope they win. I encourage you to read the court documents, they make for interesting reading.
https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html
Also, monetary damages are pretty much always insufficient in GPL cases, since money doesn't get you source code. I guess if the money was enough to pay for reverse engineering and reimplementation of the fixes/features present in the non-compliant codebase, then they could be enough.
Exactly.
True, but the community does clean up and upstream stuff over time. It's just very slow work, made even more confusing by how much SoC hardware components are duplicated with small variations in different platforms. De-duplicating and merging drivers for some random IP block can involve pretty serious effort
Citation needed
1000 engineers will give you a burn rate of $500m/year. I guarantee you the head count associated with Fuchsia is higher than this, probably much higher.
Again, I have no official information on the current resource allocation but you can figure these things out by, for example, looking at the leadership structure. At a company like Google, certain positions will indicate head counts. An engineering director probably averages ~100 engineers rolled up through 2-3 layers of managers. A VP means 200-500.
Familiarity with how Google staffs projects, how much Fuchsia was staffed while I was still there and the costs innvolved gets you easily into the billions of dollars over 5+ years.
I find your “much higher than 1000” estimate a bit surprising.
Think about it this way: if the TCP stack is in user space then how does another process talk to it to send a packet? Is it directly? Well that has issues. If it's via the kernel then you're already translating to the kernel and then out to user space.
If this is an issue, will the temptation be to make some performance-related bypasses?
Linus of course favours monolithic kernels [1] so consider that a disclaimer.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_deb...
In a microkernel system, if a process holds a handle to a TCP stack then it can make calls like create_socket() and then use a socket. For better performance such calls can be executed without visiting the kernel, via call gates. If a process doesn't have a TCP handle, then it cannot access the network which is the best choice for most applications. And of course a privileged enough process can tap into other processes' inter-process calls and see what they are sending and receiving, or even intercept those calls and modify requests and responses, for example, to emulate a network card or to act as a firewall.
In legacy systems like Linux or Windows every process has excess privileges - for example, access to network, to filesystem, to information about other processes, to shared memory, to hardware serial numbers. Linux has several hundreds system calls and they are available to any process. In a microkernel system I am describing the process would have the minimal privileges necessary for its job. For example, a TCP daemon would only have a handle to a router daemon (that redirects packets to a network interface) and no access to filesystem, information about kernel, and so on. Even if this daemon had a vulnerability it wouldn't be of much use for an attacker.
There are many ways to make microkernels nearly as fast as monokernels, while being much safer and modular with all advantages that entails. See QNX or Sel4 for modern implementations.
Meanwhile, Linux itself has been getting more and more microkernel-y with things like eBPF which because of the monolithic design make the whole kernel much more vulnerable than warranted.
QNX is an example of a real-world microkernel OS that Blackberry purchased for use in mobile phones. One could argue it had superior peformance to Linux, not because of throughput, but due to its real-time guarantees.
So it depends on the cost of context switching, which is typically very high, and the frequency of context switches. Real time OSes are really important for applications where you have lots of lightweight tasks that need to be handled very promptly. If you have long running tasks (long running in CPU world, which can be fractions of a second) constantly getting interrupted and context switched can brutalise performance.
When I write something here, I've already done it, and often on multiple occasions in multiple scenarios at multiple companies, therefore I don't need a lesson.
Real time guarantee: When a hook for an event is called it transfers all computation to that call within a time limit predictably and deterministically
Please correct me if I am wrong.
However, the crux of the problem is the Android manufacturer. You can't solve a human and incentive problem with a technical solution. Project Treble makes manufacturer easier to support their device, but they still don't motivate to do it. Google needs a tighter control on what device manufacturer should release.
Android One is a good approach, only qualify certain devices to be include for meeting certain criteria. They could actually create a watermark on unsecured device for not updating Android version, just like chromium do it to website not using https. I think this is more effective than creating a new OS just to let the manufacturer being lazy.
Their "Explore our latest phones" section shows 2 years old devices :/
There are no incentives for the manufacturers to make these devices, as customers don't care and don't want to pay premium for them, while the manufacturers can get money from adding crapware to their phones.
UNIX FOSS clones abhor microkernels, and then run containers everywhere with a monolithic kernel stuck accessing the real hardware via a type 1 hypervisor.
It isn´t a theory for about several years already.
For example, this allows Windows to restart a crashed GPU driver.
Windows (and I think macOS as well) also has a stable kernel ABI/API for drivers, a fact that's probably appreciated by the hardware vendors.
The bad name attached to microkernels I think stems from the debate between Tanenbaum and Linus in the 90s, where Tanenbaum's microkernel was sorely lacking in performance, mostly owning to the incredibly resource intensive context switches on the CPUs of the time.
However, on newer CPUs, this cost is much less significant as CPUs are better optimized for this, making it worthwhile to revisit this issue.
The amount of context-switching can be reduced these days by devoting cores to tasks/processes instead of tasks on a single core.
Its not a free ride however as you pay with cache efficiency. For some systems, however I think it would pay off, the efficiency would increase with the number of cores until you get to 1 core per userspace task. At that point, its just IPC cost.
This is an issue only because today CPUs are optimized for legacy monolith kernels which rarely switch and not for microkernels.
Microkernels are very important because they allow to reduce privileged code size and move most things out of kernel. Legacy kernels like Linux or Windows are just an endless source of vulnerabilities, use legacy programming languages and have zero security. Linux doesn't even use static code analysis.
For example, in Linux a network card driver runs at kernel with maximum privileges. In a microkernel it would be a separate process without access to anything in the system (even to a file system) so exploiting it wouldn't give much to attacker.
Modern CPUs (well Intel CPUs at least) have lots of features to try and mitigate these costs but they aren't widely used. For instance memory protection keys.
Single address space OS's in a broader sense have been made unviable by Spectre vulnerabilities; these days you need an address space flush at every transition from a "more private" to a "less private" information domain, which is basically every context switch when applications can't trust one another and have mutually private information that they're trying not to disclose to other apps.
This is valid only for current CPUs and probably can be fixed. For example, current CPUs do not do speculative accesses for memory-mapped IO, and it means that similar method could be used to prevent access to kernel or other processes memory. There could be registers that contain lower and upper bounds of accessible memory, and they could be checked before accessing it.
Since my Nest Hub received the update to Fuchsia it's been generally more laggy and unresponsive. Occasionally it needs a power cycle. I wish there was a way to downgrade to whatever it had pre-Fuchsia :(
Fuchsia: 39
Fuschia: 19
Fushia: 1
Fuchia: 1
Other: ?
...so we can conclude that the UX of this codename is terrible. Maybe they should change it to something more easy to remember, e.g. Fuxia (Fucksya would probably also be easier to remember, but could be deemed too obscene)?
Either it's a common word that is just hard to spell, and sticking to actual spelling is the saving grace as people who didn't know the spell will have a fighting chance to remember it.
Either they come up with an easier to spell version (e.g. "fuxia", but then those who knew the right spell will have to remember both, and those who "misspelled" the flower will be thinking Google's project name is the "correct" spelling.
My conclusion from reading English all my life is that it’s a terrible unintuitive language and using the Latin alphabet for so many different-sounding languages wasn’t such a great idea.
Much like C++; taking the worst of all worlds.
English actually has a set of spelling rules that make it generally possible to predict the pronunciation of most words, while fuchsia is one of the words that sits well outside the spelling rules. The most notorious bits of spelling come when, as here, insistence is made on preserving the spelling despite sound changes making it completely untenable.
The original pronunciation of fuchsia in the German should be something along the lines of "fook-see-a". In English, the 'sia' would naturally want to affricate in that position (the same process that makes -tion pronounced 'shun'), which would lead to "fook-sha". I guess somewhere along the line, the k phoneme dropped, but the u also changes into an English long u (as in, it becomes the 'u' in 'cute' or 'cuticle').
The end result is that to spell the English pronunciation correctly, you need 'f', long 'u', something to spell 'sh' phoneme, vowel to make 'u' long (usually 'e', but 'i' can do the job in a pinch), and then 'a'. 'Fuschia' would be a spelling that comports with the expected pronunciation--while 'sch' is not the most common way of spelling 'sh', it is a way of doing so. And if you have only a vague of memory of what the word should look like, it has all of the requisite letters, and it yields the expected pronunciation--where the 'correct' spelling doesn't.
I'm generally a pretty good speller in English, and I will freely admit that the only way I can remember how to spell fuchsia correctly is that it's the spelling that fucks up--replace k with h.
Google makes a foxy OS. Shame it's not a fire-fuchs
Fuchsia is an open-source capability-based operating system developed by Google. In contrast to prior Google-developed operating systems such as Chrome OS and Android, which are based on the Linux kernel, Fuchsia is based on a new kernel named Zircon. It first became known to the public when the project appeared on a self-hosted git repository in August 2016 without any official announcement. After years of development, Fuchsia was officially released to the public on the first-generation Google Nest Hub, replacing its original Cast OS.
*gfx.downloadable_fonts.enabled
I personally wouldn't want an OS that updates according to the developers wishes, with no control on my end. It reeks too much of corporate control, from simple things like changing UI or functionality to much bigger things like removing features because they are no longer in the interest of the company.
Having an auto-updating, fully sandboxed OS, without reboots, really doesn't sound that bad.
Especially if it's only kernel, stability and security updates.
It's not dissimilar to writing zero-downtime web services.
If it stays here, I'm 100% on board; I wouldn't even mind defaulting to on. Forced automatic updates (hi, Microsoft) are a terrible move. I would also say that separating bug/security fixes from features and breaking changes helps, if my OS vendor had a way to auto-patch only security issues, and could ensure zero breakage as a result - no new features, no changing UX, nothing but invisible security patches - I'd enable it in a heartbeat. And they won't, so I won't:)
For a development machine, I'd honestly... be pretty fine with it. That's similar to how Arch Linux operates (but change hourly to daily or weekly) and it causes very few problems. I think I've had maybe two or three big issues caused by updates in the past year, plus a couple application-specific issues (not kernel-level or os-level). With a more extensive regression testing team I can see Fuchsia following through with the promise of seamless updates.
Windows updates also have possibly the worst reputation you can get (except, maybe, iOS update's reputation when Apple was slowing down older devices), so almost anything Google does will be better. Not needing to reboot (presumably, if they're checking every hour) after an update will also help.
Even ignoring the philosophical "it's my machine dammit, it'll update when I damn well want it to and not before" POV[0] it is a practical mess on[1] two fronts:
1. I use my windows machine for computation, ergo it needs to be running, and it costs me money and productivity when it is not. If it restarts to update, I lose hours at minimum of cpu-time and more until I notice and can get things restarted.
2. It makes what should be core user functionality useless. I would like to set up my desktop, with some programs open, a few spreadsheets mayhaps, browser to discord, reddit, HN, etc. Maybe a second desktop relegated to some other task. I can't do this, because windows will force a restart in the next 144 hours which will invariably fubar anything I've tried to set up.
[0]To which I strongly adhere.
[1]At least.
If they implemented a proper A/B booting with preserving the intent/state of open apps most people wouldn't even realise an update happened and wouldn't complain.
I doubt many people will have a problem with security updates that have no impact on the feature space.
But feature updates tend to break UX flows and not many people are happy about that.Your comment about corporate control also applies to feature updates.
It is already running on a Nest Hub today. So it is already shipped.
Given that they have Chrome [0] already running on it, I think you know what Google will also be replacing.
Fuchsia seems that it will go beyond running on Nest Hubs in the future.
[0] https://9to5google.com/2022/03/04/full-google-chrome-browser...
Are you talking about Chrome OS?
yes.It will 'take off' if it finds a practical use case.
If they start making Androids based on this, it will 'take off'.
If Tesla, Ford, Volskwagen use it in their cars, it will 'take off'.
etc..
I don't have nearly enough insight to know one way or another, but G is a big company and if they want to do something they will.
My point is, the 5 years and no traction isn't necessarily indicative of that much.
And they actually did ship on one class of Nest devices recently. It's a limited use case, but that's expected for the first product release.