If you kill the x86 monopoly, CUDA could easily be the last proprietary lock in for general purpose compute. Not a bad place to be.
Ampere, linked elsewhere, made a competitive chip with just half a billion in total funding, and most of that was to scale up after the prototypes were built.
Who knows, though. Nvidia's R&D expenses skyrocketed over the last five years and maybe Grace is a large part of it.
Having (non-Apple) ARM assault the X86 ecosystem will take a lot of out of the box thinking and, most importantly, cooperation for standardization amongst the HW vendors for open standards, which is exactly what Nvidia doesn't like to do, as they always prefer the locked down ecosystem approach, contrary to the openness that lead the comodization and popularity of the IBM PC clones.
No we don't, and no it's not. At least not as far as the mass consumer is concerned.
Show me where a consumer can walk into Best Buy and purchase a PC with a decently powerful and inexpensive ARM processor powering it in place of Intel or AMD. That's something that Nvidia can actually make happen given its resources. The organization behind the Raspberry PI is microscopic by comparison, they have no resources to manage such an enormous consumer front (not even remotely close in fact).
Your premise about the Raspberry PI is like techies on HN pretending that there's no need for x y z product/service, because you can just run your own social network on a machine in your closet at home, you can just run your own file server, you can just run your own mail server. No, consumers are never going to do that en masse. And consumers are never going to lean on the Raspberry PI to assemble their own machines either in massive quantities; that has to be a comprehensive, packaged product sold to them via retail that they plug in and use with zero assembly or hands-on customization required. It has to be relatively inexpensive and powerful enough to undercut and compete with what Intel and AMD bring to the table. Raspberry PI isn't even in the discussion.
https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/
this is a small PC, fitting inside a keyboard, based on the Raspberry PI. No assembly needed other than connecting it to peripherals - but that's like any other PC. Other than the keyboard housing it, it comes with a mouse and a PSU.
It costs 100 USD and available from many vendors around the world, e.g.:
https://chicagodist.com/products/raspberry-pi-400-kit?src=ra...
It will run circles around any desktop PC within the same price range.
And yes, the Raspberry Pi 4/400 is perfectly usable for general desktop computing for students. The default desktop OS is intuitive and it includes modern browsers, can watch Netflix/Disney+ DRM media, and run LibreOffice or WPS Office.
Similarly, the Pine64 Pinebook Pro is actually quite serviceable for general desktop use at < $250, but you can also buy a $999 M1 MacBook Air at Best Buy if your needs cannot be satisfied by sub $250 computers.
https://itnext.io/the-2021-onward-guide-to-install-netflix-o...
Edit:
I've personally done it in browser. It works.
Edit:
It is less complicated to setup a Raspberry Pi than install Windows 11.
Your average Walmart buyers don't even run antivirus, setup Google/Apply/Samsung Pay, install Microsoft Office, or know how to make a Windows 10/11 USB installer.
$200 Android phones are notorious for not actually working correctly in getting apps to run.
Yeah, only if you run some commands in the terminal from a tutorial, to enable that. That's where you loose most average joe consumers.
>It is less complicated to setup a Raspberry Pi than install Windows 11.
Your average consumer has no idea and no intention on installing an OS, that's why all machines at Walmart come with one preinstalled including Macs and PC Laptops.
>$200 Android phones are notorious for not actually working correctly in getting apps to run.
Funny, I have a 200 EUro Android phone that runs everything correctly including HW accelerated Youtube and Netflix out of the box. I guess your $200 Android phones are just broken somehow. Maybe return them or file a RMA ticket.
sudo apt update sudo apt full-upgrade sudo apt install libwidevinecdm0
There's no configuration to edit/change. There's no credit card or account setup necessary to download the app. This is objectively easier than setting up a new android device.
The guy saying he can't go into Best Buy and buy a consumer ARM machine has ignored the last 2 years.
So basically two months of salary for the average person in Portugal, and many more months in lesser fortunate parts of the globe.
Are Portugal wages that low though? $350 is an average monthly wage in Russia, being lower than Romania or Bulgaria. I doubt the average Portuguese is that broke.
In many companies you will be getting around 1000 euros for a job out of university.
That's nowhere near the median or average.
Also, It's half a months Average Salary in Portugal.
Edit:
https://themacindex.com/variants/MGNR3/mac-mini-m1-256gb?cur...
But your arguments don't match actual data, your situation is an outlier as of 2022.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
The Median or Average income in Portugal can afford an M1 Mac mini, and it is far less than 1 months wages. It also lasts for 5+ years.
Yeah, good luck with that. Warranty in EU is 2 years. If it breaks after that and you have no Apple care, you can basically throw it in the bin, as it's not built to be cheaply repaired, with Apple's stance being either buy Apple care or buy a new one when it breaks. Perfect e-waste generator.
Plus, the default storage of 256 GB on the base model is pitifully low for what is supposed to be a desktop PC in 2022, so you need to spec it up, increasing the price. I had that amount of storage on my entry level $400 HP ProBook in 2012! There's no way I'm paying more money for less storage, after 10 years of progress.
This is what is typically available for under $800 Euro for desktops in Europe:
https://www.worten.pt/informatica-e-acessorios/computadores/...
256gb is pretty standard outside of gaming/workstation class desktops all over the world. The M1 is twice the CPU of everything in the sub $800 USD/Euro market. It's not even comparable. Spend $60/year on AppleCare+ and you get warranty well beyond 2 years in Spain/France/etc.
I haven't had a PC component break in less than 4-5 years on custom builds or OTS systems. My Macs have lasted 7-10 years of functional use.
I really don't get any of your arguments in this discussion. It's like you haven't actually use a Raspberry Pi in 3-4 years, and just want to knock Apple or ARM-based computers in general.
Between $100-$700 USD there are multiple cheap ARM-based computers available for any level of consumer use. You can use a reliable but cheap Raspberry Pi 400 if you are budget constrained. You will have to install DRM software, just like we did with DVD player software DRM in the 2000s to make Netflix work if you go that route.
If that doesn't work for the consumer they get a $700 Mac mini and it will have all out-of-the-box functionality a consumer needs, and outperform everything else they could find retail under $1000.
We haven't even talked about Chromebook's because there's dozens of ARM-based Chromebook's that have already overtaken cheap Intel PCs for these markets. This isn't even opinion over what platform is "better", the market has already spoken, and cheap ARM-based PCes as well as powerful ARM-based PCs are the norm.
I'm not overestimating, and I hope you're joking with that link, as I've bought a Lenovo laptop with an 8 core Ryzen 5800U and 2560x1600 display, 16GB RAM and 1TB NVME SSD for ~750 EUROS[1] last Christmas.
Please stop exaggerating by cherry picking overpriced and outdated PC hardware as being the norm in Europe, it's not. Great PC hardware can be found at outstanding value if you look around a bit.
>256gb is pretty standard outside of gaming/workstation class desktops all over the world.
It's not though. I see many cheap laptops under 800 Euro with more than that. Many consumer want more RAM and more storage since they want to do more than just browse the web.
>The M1 is twice the CPU of everything in the sub $800 USD/Euro market.
Ok, but CPU cycles are in infinite supply regardless of your choice of CPU performance, but your base spec 8GB RAM and 256 GB of storage that come with that 800 Euro price tag are fixed and could be a limiting factor for some. My example gives you double the RAM and four times the storage. Good luck editing your favorite video on that powerful M1 chip if you run out of HDD space for it because you only have 256GB, and that's before the OS, swap and apps ate a chunk of it.
My Macs have lasted 7-10 years of functional use.
Yeah, at 7 -10 year old, you're talking about the old Intel ones which where easily repairable as they were based on CotS hardware. How can you guarantee the same for the M1 SoC systems which are barely 1 year old and built using custom parts when you factor in Apple's anti-repair and anti-consumer stance?
[1] https://altex.ro/laptop-lenovo-yoga-slim-7-13acn5-amd-ryzen-...
That was on sale at Christmas.
That's the same price and performance as an M1 MacBook Air (slightly less actually under ideal circumstances).
It gets 75% the battery life of the M1 MacBook Air.
That has the same 2 year warranty in the EU.
It is currently not on sale for that price and is above 800 Euros -- Mac minis and MacBook Airs also go on sale for the same price.
The Portuguese guy still can't afford it, apparently.
I literally gave a link to a major Portuguese retailer in the contextual country with dozens of PCs listed. You gave a sale item in another country with a spec you prefer that has no bearing on the average consumer.
You are cherry picking badly.
Yes, it's a laptop, a slimmer portable desktop with a built in battery, keyboard, mouse and display, so even better value for money making an even stronger argument against your outdated and overpriced example.
>That was on sale at Christmas
No it wasn't on sale. Why are you twisting my words? I literally said I bought it last Christmas. Not everything you buy around Christmas is on sale. Look at the price now, it hasn't changed.
>That's the same price and performance as an M1 MacBook Air
It's not the same price, not even close. A base M1 CPU MacBook air specced up on their website to the same 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD is 1819 Euros, nearly 2.5x the price of the ~780 Euro Ryzen PC laptop I gave as an example.
>It is currently not on sale for that price and is above 800 Euros
What are you talking about? It literally is on sale and in stock at 3900 RON (~780 Euros) at the link I shared above.
>You gave a sale item in another country
I gave you a link from another EU country (EU tech pricing is similar within the block), since you claimed we don't have good options for PCs in Europe under 800 USD, you didn't specifically ask about Portugal. Read your own comment again please.
> with a spec you prefer that has no bearing on the average consumer.
No, I picked a spec that's closest to a base MacBook air in price, performance and form factor, but with double the RAM and four times the storage since some people need the extra memory and storage.
As this conversation is degrading and going nowhere productive, I will have to end my side of the conversation with you here and never reply to you again. Have a nice evening sir.
Statistics say each one eats half of it.
You are all over the place asserting to know more than people that actually know the country, based on random statistics.
Your personal experience is not the average or median one.
700 Euro for a Mac Mini it's a bargain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
And I bet most fellow country folks won't contradict me.
Apple doesn’t care, and they have never cared about this. There’s no profit in making ultra affordable state of the art electronics.
It is however true that "an average person in portugal" can get around 1.5 mac mini m1 and not 0.5 as you claimed. Given that a computer may easily last someone 10 years of usage, and that its a tool people use to earn money, it does not seem relatively expensive.
You cannot ask for a good ARM laptop, and then when people suggest a M1 MacBook which costs under $1000, and can often be found on sale for even less suddenly say “It’s expensive and poor people cannot afford it”.
It doesn’t matter.
> Your premise about the Raspberry PI is like techies on HN pretending that there's no need for x y z product/service, because you can just run your own social network on a machine in your closet at home, you can just run your own file server, you can just run your own mail server. No, consumers are never going to do that en masse.
I used to be absolutely sure this could never, ever happen. It definitely can’t and won’t happen any time soon.
However, it’s clear that the promise of the home server came far too early. I think the sentiment a lot of people have is that even if someone sold the perfect products and software, nobody would ever want it. Sure, it would offer the user more autonomy and control, but it costs money and is a constant responsibility. Nobody is going to ever feel a need to go out and do that when they can just pay a monthly fee for someone else to take care of it.
Except people take that exact trade off all the time; Home ownership. Owning a home is also an expensive ordeal, extremely expensive at that, that comes with many responsibilities, and yet most people still long for the autonomy and control and other life benefits it has to offer. No individual has to own a house in most areas; you could rent, or buy a condominium unit, and have significantly less overall responsibility. I don’t think most people want to rent even if it was cheaper. Home ownership is a north star for many people.
For better or worse, computers and the internet don’t seem to be becoming any less important for society. Mega corps rise and fall, paradigms shift, prices fall, software evolves. There’s a whole lot of growing distrust for corporations and their governments in tech right now, even to the layperson, and definitely to lawmakers.
In the past few decades, people went out and bought expensive modems and big complicated desktop computers often just to experience the magic of the Internet. As far as I’m concerned, anything could still happen.
And after that, the year of the Linux desktop will surely follow.
It's like 5 times slower than the chip in my 10 year old laptop.
Given the Pi is a low-cost device, it's not terrible unreasonable to at least compare it to the 20-50 Gflop CPUs of that period.
But it's also not exactly fair as the HW Decode for video really makes them feel significantly faster in most process intensive workloads for general consumers, and USB3/eMMC/Micro SD cards are significantly faster than the IO used on iX-2000 to iX-4000 era computers (and later).
The Pi4 is almost modern desktop capable for office/admin work. You're at about 25% CPU utilization using HW accelerated 1080p video on a Pi4. Still a little slow, but desktop software and most web apps run as well on a 4gb or 8gb Pi4 as they do on a low-end PC.
What specific chips do you have in mind? By that same benchmark, an i3-3210 has 58.9Gflops. So that's still 4x higher, and 8x higher per core.
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/pr...
Kinda just went with the bottom half of the 2010-2014 era chips.
If it ends in E it’s an embedded chip for stuff like smart refrigerators etc. LE/LM are for even lower power devices.
I would suggest looking at actual cheap laptops from 2012 if you want to see what the low end actually looked like.
These are mobile Ivybridge chips, they were not snappy, and as late as 2013 release dates for sub 50 GFLOPs.
It exists today, not 10 years ago. Todau I have to run 5 electron apps in the background before I can even start working, PI simply cannot handle even my basic day to day tasks.
You need at least 8gb of ram, and more than an 128gb of storage (i.e. eMMC and SDcards).
I very much doubt any sub $250 computer could really handle your basic day-to-day tasks (or anyone else' on HN).
ARM-based Chromebook's have already proven that Pi 4-comparable SoCs can do most basic computing needs for consumers.
The idea that essential computing needs can be met with a $100 Pi 400 and a $50 Screen is just kinda crazy.
But the better comparison for a Pi 4 isn’t laptops it’s cellphones. The Pi 4 is comparable to ultra low end cellphones, but gets crushed by a midrange phone like a 2022 iPhone SE.
Sorry to pop your bubble but you are absolutely mistaken.
The first revision of the Pi was slow as hell, it's true.
With version 3b and newer I was pleasantly surprised with how quick and responsive the Pi platform has become. It certainly feels faster or at least comparable to the Chromebook Ireceived at Google IO in 2013.
Where are the ARM instances on Google and Azure? Not to mention Oracle and IBM and other smaller cloud vendors. Companies running their own datacenters like Facebook and CloudFlare. Dedicated server providers too.
There's a lot of high end volume in this space to attack the margins of.
Nvidia prefers the locked down approach because it gives them a differentiated product with great margins. That doesn't mean they're incapable of a side project to torch the margins of their biggest competitors.
Ampere Altra, which has even more cores.
> Where are the ARM instances on Google and Azure? Not to mention Oracle and IBM and other smaller cloud vendors.
Azure: stay tuned, it's soon. Oracle Cloud: already out since a while :)
I completely missed their deal with Oracle, though. That's pretty cool.
To be clear, in my opinion the shift is going to happen regardless of whether Nvidia steps in - I just think they could accelerate it significantly and it would benefit them to do so.