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Comment by kranner | Hacker News Reader

I have some feedback regarding the testimonial from “Sangeeth”, whose Memoji shows a Sikh person. Did the user choose their Memoji? The two don’t go together well for reasons of odd cultural differences in the Roman/Latin transliteration of sounds in the south and the north of India. The -th- cluster represents the dental t, IPA /t/, but only in South India. In the North the same sound is represented by -t-. Therefore you might find a Sikh named Sangeet, or a non-Sikh named Sangeeth, but a Sikh named Sangeeth? I’ve never seen a Sikh name using the -th- cluster in my life. There are Sikhs who grow up in South India of course but their names use the North Indian transliteration rules.

What I’m trying to say is: if you chose the Memoji with a turban to show an Indian person, it doesn’t match the -th in the name. As an Indian my first reaction was that the testimonial was fake, for this reason.

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Hi kranner I didn't mean to offend you. Or misrepresent the culture with a memoji. Sorry. If you feel it's out of order, then I can change it too. But what is more crucial for me is what Sangeeth said. And that is more important to me. By the way, all testimonials are real. 100%

> Hi kranner I didn't mean to offend you. Or misrepresent the culture with a memoji. Sorry. If you feel it's out of order, then I can change it too. But what is more crucial for me is what Sangeeth said. And that is more important to me. By the way, all testimonials are real. 100%

I think that the general idea is that either you're guessing at the appropriate representation of the testifying users, or that they've picked those emoji. If the latter, then all is good! If the former, then it's generally a bad idea to assume that you know something about a person based on their name, or even, really, anything other than their implicit election. (I would certainly be upset if a business to whom I had offered a testimonial used it and misidentified me, even in ways that may seem trivial, especially if they could have just asked me.)

In addition to pronouns, let's include emojis that we feel identify ourselves

> In addition to pronouns, let's include emojis that we feel identify ourselves

I assume that was sarcastic, but why not? Do you have any right to choose the emoji to identify me? I mean, you surely have every right to editorialise with an emoji that you think reflects my behaviour, but, if you're going to quote me below a symbolic representation, then I think it's different. If one has to use an emoji to identify someone—and it's not at all clear to me that it's necessary—then, after all, we're talking about who has reached out; why not just ask them?

(For example, surely—right?—we can agree that it would be bad to say "a user from India gave this testimonial:", or whatever—unless the place of origin is relevant, and you actually know it. I don't see much difference between these two.)

> Do you have any right to choose the emoji to identify me

If it's posted on my website, then yes. It might not be polite or advisable, but I absolutely have the right to misgender you as well.

Let's just take the emojis away if we all can't get along with them.

It certainly seems clear that renato_cassutt, who it is clear can taken constructive criticism and who has given very useful replies throughout the comments, meant no-one any harm; and neither I nor, I am sure, kranner meant to impute any ill intent. I can understand the appeal of pictorial representations of one's users; I was just, and I suspect that kranner was also, trying to mention the possible inadvertent offence that might result in this way, not to ruin anyone's fun but to save someone from an inadvertent misstep.

Thanks JadeNB. I'm pretty sure that renato_cassutt didn't mean any harm and that the testimonial is from a real user. The context that many are missing here is that a turban is religious headwear like a yarmulke. As a Sikh you have to be authorised to wear one in a ceremony called a "dastaarbandi", and there are rules of conduct while wearing one in public. It's inadvisable to add one to the depiction of a person unless they choose it themselves. This kind of thing (e.g. inappropriate Sikh representation in movies) regularly becomes a political issue in India. In renato_cassutt's case, it's an unnecessary distraction from the actual product.

I do very much agree that it's inadvisable to add a turban to depiction of person unless they choose themselves.

That being said, as an pedantic, unshorn hair, turban wearing Sikh I'm not sure I'd describe dastaarbandi as any sort of ceremony granting authorization.

Yes, that was overly loose wording on my part. I wanted to convey that there are rituals and formalisms around wearing turbans.

Hi renato_casutt, I'm not offended at all and congratulations on launching. I only commented to point out that the turban+name combination makes the comment look inauthentic which may be an issue in the intended use of the comment as social proof.

It’s just an emoji, not a Memoji (https://emojipedia.org/man-wearing-turban-medium-dark-skin-t...)

It’s probably a review written by somebody with a brown skin tone. Page authors don’t know the social intricacies of what constitutes Sikhs and chose this one as “close enough”.

There’s probably some sort of important lesson here…

Maybe, but Sangeeth is not here to tell us if they are Sikh or not, so it's hard to say.

I think it's unfortunate that (at the time of writing) the comments about the product and its effectiveness are ranked lower than this discussion about the _possibility_ that a non-Sikh person has been represented as Sikh.

If Sangeeth themselves had popped up in this thread to comment on the choice of emoji, then sure, but it's just somebody making some assumptions based on a 't' vs 'th' cluster in the name.

Oh I agree, the lesson learned should be: let's not spend our attention on race and identity because it leads to these bizarre situations among many other things. I barely understand how we ended up like this.

Sangeeth is not a Sikh name. In India people don't convert to Sikhism, or at least I'm a middle-aged Indian and I've lived here all my life, I've never seen it happen. There's a certain foreign subculture of Americans converting to Sikhism, but then they take on Sikh names. It's extremely improbable that Sangeeth is a Sikh person.

Yes, such as stop fixating so much on race or ethnicity and instead appreciate the product for what it is.

Thank you. I didn't find the energy to put it into words when I first commented. I yearn for this world.

I have now changed the memoji of Sangeeth. It is important to me that everyone is aware that the testimonials are all 100% real.

Thank you. I was trying to keep it understated, but it was the equivalent of seeing a Jewish-sounding name and depicting the person as a yarmulke-wearing Orthodox Jew without their consent. Anyone with a broadly shared cultural background as that user would get hung up on the incongruence (and many would mind being stereotyped) instead of focusing on your product. I don't blame you for not knowing that turbans are religious headwear, not fun hats people wear and take off on a whim as depicted in American media (which has greatly influenced global cultural stereotypes).

You are absolutely right. I really wasn't aware of it. And therefore I thank you very much for the hint. I am an open person and am therefore always happy when I can learn something new. Everyone should live as he wants. We are individuals and I think that's great. Best regards, Renato

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