Comment by awill88 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by awill88 | Hacker News Reader

There is a lot to unpack, but I hear you.

“Perhaps I am not suited for working in a services company with rapid transitions“

I think you’re right. You read like you’re a people pleaser. I know it because I am too. You, like me, might have a difficult time with having a dynamic yet firm grasp on our purpose in, what is more often than not, textbook Kafkaesque situations; situations we put ourselves in, and we’re accountable for, too.

Good luck in your journey of discovery. And you read like you’re also young-middle aged, also like me. So, from one to another, just remember it’s quite the privilege to publish a statement declaring in a public space that you’re “taking a break” from work. I don’t think you’re a trust fund baby, but you know, not everyone who gets you would sympathize with that statement. Maybe here, perhaps.

Maybe I’m totally wrong about the author, or maybe I’m sort of over the tone deaf articles I read on here, like we aren’t all so fucking lucky to have these software engineer jobs, the ones that pay. Is it worth your mental health? Of course not. Find a new company, I had to. Best decision I ever made.

So if I’m wrong, it’s worth the risk because I hope it drives home the point this article reeks of privilege.

> "So, from one to another, just remember it’s quite the privilege to publish a statement declaring in a public space that you’re “taking a break” from work."

Why this anger towards the author for doing what he considers to be the best thing for himself?

Yes, being able to take a break from work is a privilege. But it isn't one that people should be publicly shamed for when needing to exercise it. Rather we should work towards having that option on the table for as many people on this planet as possible.

Worker's rights have been so completely eroded (or never even established) in so many places around the world, that it breeds this kind of sick attitude of turning against those who decide to put them selves or loved ones before the employer and work.

I say this as someone who is personally about to take a long sabbatical, with full pay, because of incredible burnout after having gone through a very traumatic period involving a partners cancer treatment.

This is only possible because of the incredible strong union that I am a part of.

> Why this anger towards the author for doing what he considers to be the best thing for himself?

Because most of us don't have the luxury to take a break from work.

Honestly, I feel jealousy towards people who can take a break from work. I've been feeling like I'm on a treadmill since my teen years.

I am not ashamed of it, though - jealousy is a human feeling and we can't wish it away, we can only control it and not let it interfere with our lives.

I’ll admit I just now realise that the author seems to have shared the post here themselves.

That does put it into a slightly different light.

> Because most of us don't have the luxury to take a break from work.

If you ask the 5 whys, you'll see that you actually can take a break from work, you are just unwilling to deal with a (potentially rapid) change in lifestyle.

I know enough IT people who at age 40 decided to become potters, or motorcycle repair folks, or blacksmiths. They immediately stopped earning six figures. They live in metropolitan areas no longer. But they all seem to be a lot happier now.

No one is going to applaud you for your money high score when you leave that body of yours. Life is about enjoying the dance, not racing to the end.

> you actually can take a break from work, you are just unwilling to deal with a (potentially rapid) change in lifestyle.

A "change in lifestyle" can also mean becoming homeless and dying of starvation. In that case, true, I am quite unwilling to deal with such a change.

This is some fatalistic nonsense. There is a long way to go for an IT person to die of starvation. It would have to be intentional: wanting to die of starvation.

I don't understand a single thing you're talking about. The path is very simple:

    don't work -> run out of money -> unable to afford food and rent -> work again / die of starvation

Can you specify which part of the path is intentional? Why would anyone want to die of starvation?

If you are located in the US, anyone can get free food to avoid starvation. Food stamps and food banks are two of the most common options.

>work again / die of starvation

If you get to this step, the choice is yours. What do you estimate the chance of not being able to find work at? 1%,… 0.00001%?

The graph loops at "work again / die of starvation", which by definition means I cannot afford not to work.

> What do you estimate the chance of not being able to find work at?

How is that relevant? My point is that I cannot afford not to work.

>My point is that I cannot afford not to work

I think you are getting the skepticism from others because most of the time these limitations are artificial and self imposed.

I certainly have felt that way when I was severely depressed and fed up with my job/life.

I felt helpless and blamed my situation, when in reality I was simply refusing to take ownership of my choices. I could quit my job, I could leave my partner, I could abandon my kids and family. I could go sleep in a park, I could buy a van and travel the country.

Why do you think you cannot afford to not work?

> I felt helpless and blamed my situation, when in reality I was simply refusing to take ownership of my choices. I could quit my job, I could leave my partner, I could abandon my kids and family. I could go sleep in a park, I could buy a van and travel the country.

The fact that you have a hypothetical possibility to do whatever does not mean anything in the real world. Besides, I am not depressed and I do not want to change my life, I like my life, I just want to not have to work.

> Why do you think you cannot afford to not work?

Why is it so hard to imagine that there is a corner in this world where not everything is taken care of for you by the big daddy govt?

To answer your question - if I were to stop working, two simple things would happen:

- I would not be able to afford rent

- I would not be able to afford food

OK. I don't have much sympathy if your only point is that you want to have things but not work or pay for them.

OK. I don't care much for your sympathy.

You are the one that moved the goal posts all the way from:

"most of us don't have the luxury to take a break from work."

to

"I want to be taken care of and others to do all the work"

Why do you have to be so obnoxious?

The path is not realistic, there's a lot between "don't work -> run out of money", including using up savings that you had, taking up unemployment benefits, finding another kind of work or going for part time, getting help from a large number of charities... And finally, if you end up actually on the verge of starvation, as an IT person you most probably can get another job even with a gap in your resume.

The whole "if you don't work you die" is very dramatic but not very true in the west, and most people that die of poverty are dying from other reasons than starvation, mostly drugs and cold.

Strangely, I'd bet that the strongest link between poverty, food and dying is through obesity, not starvation

> there's a lot between "don't work -> run out of money", including using up savings that you had, taking up unemployment benefits, finding another kind of work or going for part time, getting help from a large number of charities... And finally, if you end up actually on the verge of starvation, as an IT person you most probably can get another job even with a gap in your resume.

So basically:

    don't work -> run out of money -> work again

?

That's not what I said.

I mentioned that one of the solution to stop a specific job is to pick a different line of work, and that even if worse comes to worse, the jump away from work is not that risky because you can come back.

But I also mentioned a lot of alternatives, including charity and government benefits, which are enough in most western countries to not starve.

> one of the solution to stop a specific job is to pick a different line of work

That does not count as "taking a break" from work.

> But I also mentioned a lot of alternatives, including charity and government benefits, which are enough in most western countries to not starve.

I see your point, but not all of us are lucky to be born in such a place. I do admit that my bitterness may come from the fact that I live in a country where the social program is... not really the greatest, to say the least.

You are welcome to feel jealous, but you don’t have to begrudge them taking that option.

I do not. In fact, I would do the same given the proper circumstances. The other person asked a question, and I gave my best approximation of an answer.

There's a term for that type of thinking: "crab mentality". It's named after the behavior of crabs when they are placed in a bucket. When a crab tries to escape, the other crabs notice and begin pulling the escaping crab back into the bucket.

For us humans, when we manage to climb out of a bucket we land in a larger bucket that contains the one we climbed out of. Eventually we get our bearings and begin to see the new walls that surround us. Unhappy with the walls, we start climbing again. And so goes the story of Sysiphus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

I think the solution is to be happy with what you have. Not an easy task though.

Now I finally can refer it with a name "crab mentality"

I only knew it as "fish ball mentality" (inaccurate translation from Cantonese)

What's the story/logic behind "fish ball mentality"?

Oh it's from a local show (in Cantonese) which is ~2x years ago. Here is the approximate content.

Supposed there is a merchant selling fish balls (in sticks). Then two people (A & B) buy one stick of fish balls. A gets a stick of 6 and B gets 5. B complains about it.

Merchant says: OK I will give you back one more. B: No I don't want one more. I want you to take away one of A's fish balls.

Since then all locals who watched the show would refer it as "fish ball mentality" and kept being used on local online forums/social media groups.

"crab mentality" was never mentioned anywhere (for me at least, until I see it here).

Ha, interesting. Thanks for sharing!

On the other hand, many of us do have such a luxury, especially on hackernews, but may be too afraid or too institutionalized to use it. It's nice to have people reminding us that we can make deliberate choices about our work life.

My intention was not to express anger, wokeyness, etc. but I can see why that might be interpreted here. I identify qualities of myself in the author. So this isn't misplaced rage, more of a plea packaged as contempt to cut through this internet posturing we all do in this public place. +1'ing / sandwiching critique with agreeable statements is more of the same social network bullsh*t that I come here to escape from. I have no idea how to speak candidly to a complete stranger, this was my best attempt.

Unions? I'm all for them as a means to fix inequity, but not for me. That's my personal choice, and a privileged one at that. They certainly address the worker's rights aspect conversation that is worth talking about.

The article is an artifact of a personal experience, not necessarily an artifact of worker rights--or perhaps that's what I'm doing--trying to provide unambiguous insight to author that they a̶r̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ could be called out and tragically misunderstood. The internet can be brutal, no good deed goes unpunished. Also, I wonder how the author feels about unions?

All that written, my comment was a crude attempt to showcase that their attempt to connect with this community was undermined by the stank of their privilege. There are more elegant ways to obviate the smell of privilege, and to reach the intended audience (which I assume is every one of us).

So what if the author is privileged? Unless you're living in a mud hut and subsistence farming, you can count yourself among the privileged as well. I guess you don't get to write anything on the internet because you might offend someone, somewhere.

I love hearing about how people make deliberate choices about their life and their work, even if they are starting with something more than the average person.

I love hearing it too, I'd like it to be well-received, even by those human beings living in "mud hut and subsistence farming" should they encounter their writing.

That's ridiculous. If I'm writing a recipe, I don't put 50 disclaimers in it about how I know not everyone can afford chicken and how I am so privileged to have food. Why would the author need to clutter up their writing in that way?

Why are you so triggered? It looks like the dude has worked really hard for a few years and is now taking a few months break.

I am not triggered, lost no sleep over it. I'm happy for them, truly. And I care about this stranger, because when I read their writing, they don't seem like a stranger to me. I see myself in them. There is a nuance I wanted to convey that I know I do not have the literary skill to accomplish.

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