Not smart but clever? The return of 'dumbphones'
bbc.co.uk
bbc.co.uk
Having an adequate camera built into the phone I take everywhere has been a game changer. Before that it was always a decision, do I take the camera or not? Often take it for nothing, and sometimes a killer photo op and you don't have it.
So a hybrid of traditional featurephone and traditional pocket camera. No temptation to immediately share on social media. Just to download later for your collection.
- Flashlight (yeah, dumb phone could probably do this one, at least, if it has any camera at all, so a flash)
- Level (!)
- In a pinch, a tape measure (I don't trust it for anything precise, but it's fine for rough measurements)
- Tuner (as in, for musical instruments)
- Camera (video and still)
- Internet messenger (I barely use SMS, haven't for years, and despite being a relatively late adopter of the new wave of messengers like WhatsApp)
- Access point for my laptop when working but not in my (home) office.
- OTP 2FA thingy
- GPS/mapping device
- Music player that integrates wirelessly with my car stereo (that is, I can control it with my car stereo controls)
- TV remote for when my kids manage to lose all the physical remotes, which is often.
Probably some other stuff I'm forgetting right now.
I could lose the web browser relatively painlessly. And I don't do social shit on it (private messaging aside—no FB, Twitter, Insta, TikTok, none of that) so that doesn't matter. I don't game on it. Still, I'd need several other things to replace it.
Dumbphones used to have real time operating systems that were built with the limitations of the device in mind. Many of them were quite snappy and responsive.
I have used a dumbphone all along and agree that they were really bad for awhile. The Alcatel Go Flip 2 was a Kai OS device that was one of the worst pieces of a electronics I ever used, and I was stuck on it for 4 years because there were no alternatives on 4G. But now the phones are alright again.
The article highlights the Light Phone, but my impression is its battery life is so bad I wouldn't want it. But it's also custom software on a custom device and has some potential.
The biggest problem right now has been the lack of a good mp3 player for the kids. Years ago we had the iPod. It was a perfect device. But Apple has discontinued that in favor of things that are basically iPhones.
There are a bunch of cheap Chinese-made mp3 players on Amazon, but they tend to have terrible navigation, sorting songs alphabetically, making it impossible to create playlists, inability to sort by genre, etc etc. I haven't found a good one (recommendations happily accepted).
So I gave the kids my old Android phone without a Sim card, and removed most of the apps, but of course they'll use the camera, and the browser... and I realized that this was just a slippery slope to that full-featured smart phone that I didn't want to get them yet.
iPod nano similarly goes for about $180 used.
Hmmm, it looks like I can maybe buy a 5th gen nano for about $60. That may be worth it, if I'm sure I'll always be able to put mp3s on it.
As a parent, I don't feel like purchasing offline music for my kids as it's one more thing they'll outgrow as they get older. I don't see a need to shelve a thumb drive full of Paw Patrol or whatever next to their outgrown jackets and rain boots.
Also, dissing Chinese-made MP3 players seems a bit weird as I'm pretty sure all iPods were made in China.
Fair point, but I was using it as a short-hand for saying "cheaply-made Chinese junk" -- the kind of fly-by-night companies that anyone who has tried to buy stuff on Amazon in the past few years is now familiar with.
Of course quality stuff is also made in China, and I was not referring to that.
/me checks the prices...
NW-A105 A Series Walkman® Digital Music Player $349.99
NW-ZX507 ZX Series Walkman® Digital Music Player $829.99
NW-WM1A Signature Series Walkman® Digital Music Player $1,199.99
NW-WM1Z Signature Series Walkman® Digital Music Player $3,199.99
Of course there is a "decent" priced one:
NW-E394 Walkman® Digital Music Player $74.99
EDIT: Yep, Cowon U7 has 32Gb flash, OGG/FLAC support, costs £59.99
Benefits, doesn't kill your phone battery and it keeps a charge for days.
Cons: soft plastic. Scratches easily and the spring clip broke.
The Fiio M5 is one example.
Many businesses seem to be eschewing web access in favour of using an app. The restaurant I went to yesterday had it's menu only available by QR code. You cannot book an Uber. You cannot date on Tinder. You cannot buy food on too good to go. You cannot even find some podcasts because they stopped running an RSS feed.
But maybe this is just the march of technology. I had no complaints when things started moving to the web, but I guess that's because I liked the web. I suppose that's just me being hypocritical.
I must sound like an old man, but I don't see it as anything other than reinventing 20-year old tech except "as an app" and shittier.
I think it's very different from the move to the web; in spite of common complaints about it on HN, it really brought cross-platform capabilities to the world. Yes, there's issues with Chrome's dominance, but have you tried running on Linux or NetBSD in 2000? It was all fun and games until someone sent you a .doc file, or until you had to do your taxes, or until you wanted to do a million other things that were "Windows-only".
With the web the only thing stopping anyone from creating a new environment that works for a lot of common every-day things is just putting in the work to implement an OS + browser. Yes, this is not easy, but also not undoable (and not as hard as sometimes claimed, IMO), and compared to proprietary protocols and formats of the 90s it's a huge improvement.
But with all this mobile stuff now we're back to proprietary protocols and formats that only work on proprietary systems. I don't think it's comparable at all. If anything, it's the reverse, and also worse than the 90s because PCs are "open" platforms where you can install any OS you want, which is not the case with the vast majority of mobile phones, and the "app store" distribution model makes it even worse.
I'm not necessarily against smartphones as a concept, but the current implementations are a huge regression in many ways.
> I think it's increasingly hard to live without a phone or without a smartphone.
Maybe for you, for the set of choices you have made in life. When I see this sentiment I smile a little because I have a Nokia dumb phone that I use only a few times per week. The less I use my phone the easier life becomes, quite literally.
To address the examples you give; In my town there are amazing restaurants all along the beach where we pay cash, know the waiters by name, you can still go out safely and date people you meet, and we have record shops that sell vinyl and CDs. Sometimes I like to go for days without a mobile phone at all. (And in case you're wondering, my life is filled with many heavy responsibilities that I manage in other ways)
With the greatest respect, I see a fair few HN comments that speak to parochial lifestyles, with sweeping statements like:
Everybody does this
Nobody does that now
What people want is this
<thing> is inevitable
<other thing> is ubiquitous now
Sweeping statements generalised from limited personal experience and quite narrow horizons make me think "That's will make these people consumers not innovators. They accept what they are given".
> But maybe this is just the march of technology.
It's not the "march" Armies and ants march. It's the "flowering" or diversification of technology. Some people are using technology in different ways than others. Which is what we'd hope for and expect from a liberal democracy, right? If we wanted everybody to do the same, think the same, and buy the same, we'd vote for communism surely?
Or are some digital technologies ushering in a form of communism on the sly?
But I guess it feels like you're just not interested or need those. Going without rideshare is definitely possible, but it's another option one is giving up by foregoing a phone.
But regardless such differences, I've a theory that what social media has done online, causing polarisation or rather partition into silos, smartphones (and the app service culture of some businesses) are doing to us in reality.
After making a conscious effort to rid myself of smartphones (or rather not get sucked into dependency) 10 years ago, the rest fell into place. What I mean is, cause and effect wise, to some extent things like my choice of restaurants to the company I keep, and working habits, might just be determined by my horizons as a non-user.
Similarly perhaps for you, the world you see is determined by the lens (a 6 inch square) you look through, and the more you stay there the more it feels like "life would be harder without a phone".
Factoring out any value judgements, in this way technology is polarising society.
respects
If I went to a restaurant like this I'd leave. I've been to places that had QR codes, but they also had menus available. This is fine.
>You cannot book an Uber.
But you can still call a taxi.
>You cannot date on Tinder.
But you can still date.
>You cannot buy food on too good to go.
But you can still buy food regularly.
>You cannot even find some podcasts because they stopped running an RSS feed.
But you can still listen to the overwhelming majority of podcasts.
Nothing you mentioned seems hard to live without. In fact, I already live completely without anything you mentioned.
I suspect that a basic but very interesting to them reason for this is simply that they want to mine the shit out of your personal information to any extent possible. It's shitty, dishonest, intrusive but very real. I sometimes use paypal and though it works just fine on a desktop or laptop, or a browser inside my phone, the scummy company itself basically forces the option of downloading the app on you at every single goddam turn, with every non-app login and any time you transfer funds. How badly they'd like to have that sweet phone permissions access.
I think people often forget this segment was briefly explored before being killed by the carriers. The Microsoft Kin was supposed to launch with a cheaper, data-light Verizon plan. But Verizon at the last minute decided they didn't want to undercut their data plans and the phone required the same $70 a month data plan as any other smartphone.
Obviously, consumer demand for phones that do everything was heavily affected by the iPhone. But I would argue Blackberry and Palm (RIP!) would have ultimately faired a bit better if their data-sipping designs weren't treated so hostile by carriers.
Device is about 15 years old, made in Finland, I have couple of spare ones in my drawer, swapping parts around normally brings it back to life when any problems (once a display went, once the keyboard, 20 minutes fix on the bench with no special tools needed).
All the "dumb" 4G models I can find come with a Facebook app, ffs.
[1] https://dumbphones.pory.app/ [2] https://www.surfans.net/products/irulu-f20-hifi-mp3-player-l...
- 10 to 12 day battery life
- 2 spare batteries in my drawer
- charges off a standard USB like an angry bull (about 4 mins to half full)
- can remove the battery, flip it over and replace cover
- can hide a folded £10 note in there and double the phone's value
- has a standard 3.5mm headphone/mic like proper phones should
- If I drop it, nothing happens
- I put it through the wash and it still works
- It pisses-off people with a £900 iThing
- It makes that cute Nokia jibgle when you switch it on
- it's pink and has a Hello Kitty sticker, which really pisses of people with "serious" phones
I never thought of this as a feature until now.
Bringing in computers??? Forget about it. I would bring in my computer sometimes but only with special 3rd level manager dispensation and I had to have all the ports taped up with security tape, have all "radios" (WiFi/BT) turned off (under threat of vendor "permaban" - imagine explaining to your boss you got the entire company banned), only being allowed CDRs going in for S/W update (no flash drives) and only taking out written paper notes for debugging back to support or R&D via your phone back in the parking lot. Essentially something worse than returning to the pre-internet 1970s or 1980s but with all the product complexity of today.
Dumb phones have been a thing for a long while because of this.
I've tried the PinePhone, witch is fantastic but not much ready to be a daily driver, so for now I keep my old Nokia (that suffer casual glitches) until GMS network shutdown will impose a 4G phone, hoping that at that time the PinePhone or something else will be ready enough.
While I recognize tha Google Maps navigate very well, far better than classic PND devices like my not-so-old but not-that-new TomTom I still being able to travel with the TT... I do not take much photos so a classic cheap wifi-less digital camera (12Mp) with a classic flash memory card accessible via an USB adapter or directly through the camera USB cable on my desktop it's again enough, no good as a phone in my pocket, take more place etc but still enough to have in car. A classic outdoor GPS for trekking it's somewhat better than a smartphone since it's far less prone to fall and breaks while it's UI and cartography are definitively not much etc. It's doable. Uncomfortable but doable.
What I fear it the future: I fear that not enough people react so in a soon future we are forced to use some Android or iOS app do do mandatory things like payments, IDs, even just banking third factor auth etc because that's the trend I see everywhere. I fear future cars with mandatory connections and an unknown set of built-in vulnerabilities I can't check nor mitigate much. I fear for my next washing machine if there will be no one on the market without a mandatory connection and automated fw updates... In general I know that if a device is called "smart" that means it's user is considered "dumb" and I do not like that, simply. So I hope enough people will force OEMs to keep some alternatives around.
My solution was also getting a dumb Nokia phone as a "leisure phone", which has no WiFi/BT but a headphone jack and music capability (it has an ancient Opera browser that I never use). Luckily my phone provider offers a "dual sim" service where I get a second SIM card with the same number, so in case someone calls me, both my iPhone and my dumb phone ring simultaneously. I only programmed a number of ~10 close friends and family into the phonebook, and now when I leave the house when I want to have some quiet time, I only take the dumb phone. I have the security of being able to call for help in case of emergencies, and am reachable for friends and family in matters of true emergencies (calls, not Whatsapps). Battery lasts 3 weeks in standby, but since I mostly have it turned off and turn it only on when I take it, it becomes mostly irrelevant.
Unfortunately the dumb phone selection isn't perfect; I'd really like to have a better camera because I do want to take snapshots now and then (without the urge to immediately upload it to social media) and the music player is very limited in functionality.
As for the experience, I can highly recommend this. Ever since I got it and got into occasional "offline mode", I realize how much BS time I spent on the smartphone. Having those "off" times are relaxing and bring a certain peace of mind. And funily when I am out without the smartphone, you realize how much other people are constantly staring into their phones in locations they actively went to refuel (parks, lakes, beaches, at the movies etc.).
I am not sure how updated / accurate this list is, but it might be helpful: https://josebriones.org/dumbphone-finder
Possible solution and an idea for project : you connect Alexa / Cortana / Siri / voice chatbot to phone number and then you just call whenever need internet from feature phone a.k.a. "dumbphone"
I've failed, so instead I've tried to make smartphones do less (I have a Moto G8 and iPhone SE2 but in both cases install as little as possible and definitely no socials or similar).
The reason I failed to avoid smartphones is that dumbphones don't do enough - they are missing a password manager and a 2FA app.
On smartphones I use BitWarden and Authy, but I'd consider any non-Android non-Apple non-Microsoft phone that had similar functionality. Until I can get into my online accounts with the help of my phone, that phone is incomplete, even though I want nothing else except 4G (for network compatibility), calls, SMS, and a local music player.
I recently got a Pocketbook HD, which is a small Linux-based eReader. You can run your own "apps" on it with a minimal amount of hackery (I use KOReader[1] for example). I've been thinking of trying to get some passport manager/2FA running on it as well.
It's got WiFi as well (which I never use), and bluetooth for music (which is pretty useful when reading in noisy trains etc.) Actually it would be pretty neat if it could do calls and SMS: it's larger than a phone, but I don't need to always carry a phone, and I usually carry my eReader if I'm away from the house for various things (e.g. when I went to IKEA today I carried it with me to have something to read during lunch).
Now there are some nice ones available again. I like the Sunbeam F1.
As a person that is mostly indifferent about my iPhone I don’t understand who would buy a dumb phone. Is it for the price sensitive? Is it for people that don’t know how to use a smartphone? Is it for security sensitive? Is it for people with cellphone addicted?
But of course my list for what it needs is different from someone else's, and at that point we'll have a smart phone.
For chart, while not on par with Google Maps classic PND devices are still on-sale, I use a classic TomTom on my car and so far while less comfortable have always bring me where I want.
That's to say: so far it's doable, and adapt personal habits to personal choices without being an eremite it's again possible, just not as much comfortable, it's a classic trade-off.
I guess you could just ignore it, but these kind of unremovable apps just makes me unreasonably angry: it's my goddamn fucking phone and I – and only I – gets to decide which fucking apps are on it!
"This is a pre-order for the black model, which we expect to ship in June."
June 2022? 2021?
You need to check traffic? Just call someone at the internet.
I also had system with "dumbphone" to receive alerts on SMS. from online machine.
Longer answer depends of what features you need: j2me (for reading HN if needed), qwerty keyboard (for writing long comments on same resource), jack 3.5mm (for radio/mp3/lossless depends of smartness), quality of camera if any, longevity of body, maybe something unique like that feeling from opening/closing a 8800. Somebody cares about GSM-900 which works best in deep woods. Today before buying smartphone we are reading about how much RAM and pixels it has and that's all. But 15-20 years ago choosing a phone was really interesting process.
Consider having several chargers especially if you are going to use something not common and not famous by longevity like thin Nokia's port. Maybe you want to solder USB-A instead of a socket with an integrated power supply to your proprietary charger socket (if 5V) to let your dumbphone be charged from powerbanks, for my Nokias with thin charger it works perfect. Avoid sh~ like Sony Ericson's FastPort (which is required for charging) and rare memory like MMC and prefer MicroUSB for charging and MicroSD for storage. For example, I love listening podcasts so my memory cards doesn't live for a long time if every week I need to refill all the memory with new files - but MicroSD costs next to nothing. Consider having extra batteries or maybe several phones having similar battery, especially if you love hiking. For example, some old Samsungs can use battery from smaller Samsungs (with spacer made from anything) and Nokia's BL-5C is one of the most popular batteries ever.
Nokia 1280 has jack 3.5 for a radio, a lighter (poor but better than nothing), its body is not much weaker from 3310 but replaceble without a screwdriver with several colors from grey to purple. Battery is not BL-5C but its SIM slot works decent even with cut simcards. So let this dumbphone be my go-to answer.
But a dumb phone without Whatsapp isn't going to work for me.
i wanna build a dumbphone