Did you disclose your condition to your employer/coworkers?
Does your employer offer you any accommodations?
Do you have any other advice?
TBH I don't blame them. This shit is really hard to grasp even to my self. Therefore I only have one very good advice: fake it and never ever tell anyone about it. Not even your friends, less your coworkers.
Mental illnesses are not even understood at medical or research level. I honestly believe this can only be understood by very well trained professionals or anyone who experience the symptoms themselves or from a very close relative. It's really hard to be compassionate with this stuff.
My advice again, keep your mouth shut up, fake it and have a list of very good excuses. Say you have cancer, idk, anything will be better than going out with the mental illness. It's a path of no return and can very well kill all growth in your career as people will talk and place red flags you can't remove thereafter.
Life is way more important than our jobs. Don't try to push more than you physically can, even if you believe you can archive more (specially in mania phase).
Good luck, hope you are doing as well as you can.
The state of mental health advocacy is shallow and hyper positive. They imagine that mentally ill people are just one mental trick or accommodation removed from being able to fit in to our new inclusive culture.
Instead, it’s more like an extremely junior employee giving a presentation to prospective applicants that has them making colorful, three dimensional “modern” resumes that I know would get tossed in the dumpster by any hiring manager at the firm.
Not to use 2020’s favorite word: but it’s like being gaslit by a person that isn’t old enough to understand what they’re saying isn’t true.
“You’re gaslighting me!”
[honest] “No I’m not!”
…lol… this is based on an example from my work. I wish I could put to words just how trendy their recommendation template was.
It can go way too fast from compassion to "he failed at this because he's mentally ill and we should never have hired a lunatic like him in the first place".
Don't talk about it, do your best to manage it outside of work, ask for remote work and a flexible schedule(because you're human not because you're ill).
If you need a few days off ask your doctor for a leave of absence and only say it's for medical reasons without ever mentioning the specifics.
But honestly I think it's kinda crazy to want to work at a FAANG when you have any kind of illness, it's already awfully hard/stressful for healthy/normal people, it seems like torture to manage an illness while working there.
My advice is to find the right people to work with. Life is too short to work with d'cks and those who don't have empathy to others - and there are plenty of such a'holes in all industries - but more so in FAANG, nee MMAGAN (Meta & Microsoft) where it is not only the toxic bro-culture, but also always trying to find some 'weakness' in others.
> needless stigma
> ignorance…many consider it a ‘weakness’
I hear your point, I really do. But my experience with mental health is that it is, very often, a weakness. Remember, I’m not saying an individual is weak for failing to cope with mental illness, but that individuals are characterized by many strengths and weaknesses (socially constructed, yes, but real nonetheless, and mental health is surely a weakness. Somebody that couldn’t get any sleep Sunday night because of their issue isn’t going to bring a valuable, interesting, and diverse perspective to the workplace on Monday. They’ll seem like a raving lunatic, and even if this meeting can be moved to Tuesday, how is this not a weakness? The key to handling any weakness to understand it and compensate where you can. I worry that perspectives like yours trivialize the complexity of mental health awareness and accommodation.
Yes they can overcome indeed.
> But my experience with mental health is that it is, very often, a weakness. Remember, I’m not saying an individual is weak for failing to cope with mental illness, but that individuals are characterized by many strengths and weaknesses (socially constructed, yes, but real nonetheless, and mental health is surely a weakness.
To be honest most will never understand people with mental illnesses, even the closest ones. You have to have experienced such a struggle in order to understand them. Do you think broken arm a weakness? probably not same applies to mental illness, mental illnesses are mostly due issues in brain functioning, if not why drugs improve their symptoms.
So... how do you react when a coworker has a baby? Basically expect them to be weak, raving lunatics for the next 1 to 3 years?
Really hope you're not one of my coworkers.
A job with a FAANG, or a government contractor, would probably be the most stressful options.
A nonprofit or government agency will probably be the most tolerant of disabilities - but I still wouldn't formally ask for accommodations if it required sharing medical details. Definitely not unless protected by a union.
If you need time off for medical appointments, because you just feel terrible on a particular day, or even hospitalization, then don't act ashamed, but don't share any details.
Lots of people have lots of different kinds of disabilities, and if you are able to function within your allotted leave and get your work done, then nobody has a right to complain.
In terms of interviews, if you have not been able to work in the past, the key to resume gaps is to make it clear that the circumstances have changed, and there is obvious evidence of that. The only reason people care about gaps is they worry you might be flat out unemployable.
"After dropping out of college several years ago due to a health condition, I was able to return and get my degree, and since then I've been volunteering at ... and writing code in ... in my spare time..."
Why were you able to return? New treatment, medication, doctor...
Public sector employees who abuse job security are treated like crap by the people who pick up the slack. Understandably, but not justifiably.
Find a smaller employer and make yourself essential.
Focus on finding a place where you are happy.
Also make sure you have good insurance.
I don’t know about working from home. Many mentally ill people (OK, my family which has a big stretch of mental illness) find the idea of working at home terrifying because work is the only social outlet.
If you're seriously considering a job with a FAANG, you should be a highly valuable employee elsewhere.
I was assuming I was addressing someone who is capable of sheer talent and productivity for a high paying job, but instinctively knows that in an interview they will seem "off" and if they are lucky enough to get the job, worry about maintaining a good relationship with their manager.
>Find a smaller employer and make yourself essential.
I disagree, although I'm no authority as I've mostly avoided them. The smaller a company is, the more it's like a family, and the more family-style dysfunction there is.
A job in government or with a big company can allow you to transfer somewhere else if things don't work out in one department. And people are less personally invested.
Why do you say so? I thought startup family like culture is better than cooperate culture?
The overarching theme, I think, is that small businesses are more vulnerable, so there's more pressure on everyone, and fewer rules that matter.
Small companies, or sole proprietors, in my experience, like to pretend people are contractors. Woe unto you if you're 17 and naive enough to question the legality.
When I think of small businesses, I think of people demanding personal loyalty, lack of respect for the law and safety, and favoritism. I think of cult-like indoctrination. Bosses/owners who think it's ok to demand the same sacrifices of employees that they make to run the company. Lack of internal controls over financial matters, discrimination, or harassment.
Besides my general sense of the world, this is founded on my first couple of jobs after high school and before college, and experiences of relatives that ended up in odd places because they were really smart but didn't have a marketable degree.
How do you suggest one do that?
Only meant as an example. I think it's situation dependent.
If you have recently been hospitalized, and started new medication, that is an opportunity to separate your future from your past. Otherwise, whatever has changed for you, but demonstrated in actions and hard facts.
The truth works. Whatever convinces you will convince others. It just has to be phrased carefully, without sharing any information or connotations that are unnecessary.
If what you're doing isn't working, don't keep doing it, but set your sights lower. Temp agencies have saved me more than once in the past.
The massive caveat here is that the pressures of work are still very high, and can (and certainly did here) contribute to and/or trigger illness to begin with. With strong support, one could certainly succeed, but my opinion is that YMMV depending on your manager.
From a HR risk perspective, what would the blast radius be if the employee was experiencing a manic episode? If given access to a company credit card, would they rack up loads of debt? Could they negatively impact the company's public image on social media? Could their grandiose state of mind rub colleagues the wrong way and potentially damage inter-team working relationships?
"Meta employee caught racking up large bar tab at Vegas strip club" is a genuine threat.
Then on the opposite side of the coin, what if that employee is experiencing a depressive episode? How would their team mates cope if that person's productivity absolutely tanked? How could their manager "defend" their actions without breaking confidentiality? How long would the company keeping paying a salary in the _hope_ they return to the "zero" state (neither manic nor depressive episode)?
What would the impact be during a depressive episode if you get fired? The downward spiral would accelerate, and unfortunately for some people, it's terminal.
Companies love to send HR on mental health training days to get a rubber stamp (and broadcast it as marketing material), but the truth is, they know absolutely nothing about the real impact of it.
There are numerous reasons why I'm a contractor and not a regular employee - first and foremost to protect myself.
If anyone wants to chat my email should be in the profile.
I worked at a FAANG years ago, in internships. Not exactly the same as a full time SWE, but I think I got a taste of it. Unfortunately, this was when I was undiagnosed, and I ended up experiencing hypomania with some paranoid delusions during the internship. After being hospitalized my senior year of college, I took a job at a lower stakes company not on either of the coasts for several years after graduating from college instead of going back there or to a similar company. The stress and separation from my support network were not worth it for me, at the time.
Years later, I have a very successful engineering career at a public tech company. Therapy, and more importantly, correct diagnosis and medication saved me. It's not a FAANG, but I make around $300k TC in a low to mid cost of living area, working remotely, and am set to pay off my home before turning 30. Married with a dog, planning on kids. The expectations at the company are high, but it's not as stressful as the FAANG internships were. I considered going back to one, but the situation here is really good. I think what changed was more how I approach work than the challenge of the work itself. Medication seriously is a godsend.
It's not all peaches, though. At one point, during a hypomanic episode unrelated to work around pandemic and general stress, I broke down with my director on a Zoom call and ended up telling him that I'm bipolar and needed some help. He worked with me to remove me from the on call rotation, since sleep deprivation was my primary issue. I wouldn't recommend necessarily coming out with your diagnosis and would actively advise against it in most cases, but there are situations when you have really good relationships where it can go well. I don't feel like revealing my diagnosis in private with someone I trust has hurt my career in any way. On the contrary, it has helped me find a sustainable work environment.
I'd prefer to stay anonymous, but I'll monitor comments here for a few days if you have any questions. Good luck to you. Please try not to let your diagnosis hold you back, but also realize that it is OK to take a lower stress position to prioritize your health. I am happy that I didn't try to chase FAANG but wouldn't rule it out in the future if the right situation came along.
Note that the $300k is pretty variable due to stock price. 1/3 to 1/2 of my comp is RSUs depending on the price. I immediately sell to diversify, so it is like a variable cash payout to me. The current stock price is about 30% lower than it was when I got my last stock grant. They were too optimistic about the price in the letter spelling out my on track earnings as about $330k. Now, after the stock fell, it'll be around $275k, so I'm splitting the difference somewhat optimistically. :)
Work life balance is really good. It wasn't at first, when I was on call and trying to prove myself, but since then I've set clear boundaries and am performing well.
Weirdly enough, I'm kind of on the other end though, just hit 30, 7 YOE, and not strong technically because background isn't CS. So I kind of don't know if I should just coast, or leetcode grind and try to go for 300-400k... I just hear horror stories of PIPs and up-and-out and it doesn't sound like fun...
My advice is be certain you have a manager who is empathetic and accommodating in general. I would give this advice to any human being. We all need help sometimes and there’s not enough years to suffer assholes. I would also proactively engage a reputable and skilled employment law lawyer specializing in your local regulations as there can be very strong protections at local levels for mental health. If you have the money put them on retainer. Ideally you’ll never need them but having someone who can write a letter to your HR and manager if you need it and be taken seriously is worth it.
You dont have to disclose it.
Diagnosed with bipolar disorder NOS when I was 32 after ten years of work, most of it in big tech. I was clearly acting very strangely at work at the time so there was no hiding something was going on. Spent 10 days in hospital getting diagnosed and medicated. Spent 30 days on leave after. When I returned I asked to be moved into a new role because I felt like the role I had moved to 18 months prior was a bad fit and contributed substantially to stress and that contributed to the manic episode. They didn't have space on my prior team (which was where I wanted to go) so I ended up in an adjacent team, working on things I was less familiar with, still a reasonably good fit.
The first 18 months after returning to work were the most difficult. Medication difficulties, difficulties coping with how I saw myself, how I felt others saw me, the feeling that my career would be slowed down or come to a halt, fear over losing my job and eventually ending up homeless, concerns over reduced life expectancy, etc. Job performance definitely suffered, especially the first 6-12 months. Nobody told me directly I was close to a PIP, but I definitely got the worst review I had ever had for that period ("Needs Improvement" sort of rating overall).
I did talk therapy weekly for ~3-4 years after the initial diagnosis. It helped a lot. If nothing else it made me realize I needed something outside of work that I cared about to help reduce the emotional ups-and-downs that came with work going well versus not (I had been extremely successful before the diagnosis, effectively getting promoted five times in five years).
To your questions: My current manager knows, but that's because I knew him before I was reporting to him and had talked to him about it at some point. My employer knows that I am in some kind of protected class because they sent a generic thing to everyone at the company at some point asking people if they were. As to accommodations, in the role before my current one I felt that I was very distracted in the office due to all the noise, so my direct manager let me work from home more than was "allowed" by upper management. I'm now in a role where that isn't possible, but at the same time I'm in a less noisy environment and feel like I'm dealing with the noise better.
Advice?
If you feel like you're really stable and really good at managing moods, etc., I think you'll probably do just fine. If you're not, work on that. Maintain a very stable sleep schedule, make sure you maintain relationships outside of work and make those a substantial focus, don't get too caught up in work or let your emotions get pulled all over the place based on what's going on at work. Take vacations when you have the time. Don't get too worried about whether your career will move as fast as others. I've had to step back a few times over the years since the diagnosis, and yes I think my career has moved more slowly than it could have, but I've come to terms with that.
Hope that helps. Feel free to ask follow-on questions and I'll try to answer.
edit: wiki lists 10 not 9
So, “sex” is a protected class, and the protection applies to everyone. There have been cases protecting males from discrimination on the basis of sex (for example - where a state had a higher minimum drinking age for men than women).
The federal ADEA (the Age Discrimination in Employment Act) only creates a right of action for people over 40.
It’s a weird one for sure. I wonder, if age were a suspect classification like sex, if the ADEA itself would be unconstitutional.