Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021)
hondurasisnotforsale.org
hondurasisnotforsale.org
These areas probably don't produce many lawyers.
Eminent Domain is one thing, but people paying eachother for land is as old as time, as is being butthurt about the price.
You might agree to give your land away to a verbal deal where promises are made, only to discover later that the detailed text contains contingencies that give your counterparty an out of one or more major promise that you had taken for granted as part of the deal.
Deposing your supreme court when they rule against your new law, and replacing them with ones that reverses that decision goes well past legal trickery into coup territory.
This is not even a new idea, and it ended really poorly last time - see the Concessions in Shanghai. [1] Having a huge disparity in the power of the so-called guarantor country as compared to the local host country is just a new take on colonialism.
[edit] However the biggest issue seems to be that it was found unconstitutional, then the judges were evicted and replaced (in what the UN described as an attack on democracy), and then all of a sudden it was constitutional. Telling the locals you know better than they do about how their region should be administered, while giving yourself the ability to exploit the living crap out of them thanks to your privileged position of being a foreigner is roughly how colonialism was carried out.
[edit] It's particularly relevant that Paul Romer proposed this at a Ted talk and then talked the Hondurans into it - citing Hong Kong as an example of a well-run charter city. Remember what happened there two years ago through present? [2] If that's your contemporary flagship... Yeah, that's pretty much what's going to happen to all of these soon-to-be-catastrophes.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_International_Settlem...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_city_(economic_develop...
Isn't that exactly what a charter city is? A city that's accountable to its own community, not to outsiders in the rest of the country.
> It's particularly relevant that Paul Romer proposed this at a Ted talk and then talked the Hondurans into it - citing Hong Kong as an example of a well-run charter city. Remember what happened there two years ago through present? [2] If that's your contemporary flagship... Yeah, that's pretty much what's going to happen to all of these soon-to-be-catastrophes.
Or you could have a country that respected the rule of law more than the CCP does (not a high bar), and was willing to accept the loss of control in return for the advantages of this kind of city.
Per Wikipedia:
A charter city is a type of city in which a guarantor from a developed country would create a city within a developing host country. The guarantor would administer the region, with the power to create their own laws, judiciary, and immigration policy outside of the control of the host country.
The town had a strict set of rules imposed by the managers. Alcohol, women, tobacco and even football were forbidden within the town, including inside the workers' own homes. Inspectors would go from house to house to check how organised the houses were and to enforce these rules. The inhabitants circumvented these prohibitions by paddling out to merchant riverboats moored beyond the town jurisdiction, often hiding contraband goods inside fruits like watermelons. A small settlement was established 8 kilometres (5 mi) upstream on the "Island of Innocence" with bars, nightclubs and brothels.
In 1930, the native workers grew tired of the American food and revolted in the town's cafeteria. This became known as the Breaking Pans (Portuguese: Quebra-Panelas). The rebels proceeded to cut the telegraph wires and chased away the managers and even the town's cook into the jungle for a few days until the Brazilian Army arrived and the revolt ended. Agreements were then made on the type of food the workers would be served.
> Or you could have a country that respected the rule of law more than the CCP does (not a high bar), and was willing to accept the loss of control in return for the advantages of this kind of city.
The question is of course, why? If it were built for the good of the locals it would just be built by the host government without an outside power, through partnerships and investment. When a foreign power looks to create such an exclave its generally because they can't get away with what they're trying to do at home.
If it genuinely is well-intentioned for the "good of the locals" then of course, well-off foreigners coming in and telling the locals what's what has a very long, and very poor track record. See: uh, basically anywhere.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_city_(economic_develop...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_city
An egalitarian charter city inside of a brutal autocracy might be great (relatively). The inverse, not so much.
> An egalitarian charter city inside of a brutal autocracy might be great (relatively).
As a peer reply stated, its success threatens the brutal autocracy and will be crushed. Like HK.
The incentives are all wrong in this model.
There are clearly major differences between this and colonialism. Most or all of the agreed downsides of colonialism are not about the existence of exclaves containing foreign people, they're about e.g. people being governed from afar without any local representation.
A charter city is a type of city in which a guarantor from a developed country would create a city within a developing host country. The guarantor would administer the region, with the power to create their own laws, judiciary, and immigration policy outside of the control of the host country.
That's exactly what Romer is proposing. The foreign guarantor would administer the region and control its laws, judiciary and immigration policy.
These aren't intended to be comprised solely of foreigners. I suspect like past exclaves, they would bring in foreign overseers to enforce their vision.
You can't point at North Korea and say "Look, when you have a nation-state everyone ends up with essentially zero influence by common locals." But this is essentially what you're doing with charter cities.
>foreign guarantor
Better terminology would be 'formerly foreign guarantor.' They are domestic to the charter city.
> Better terminology would be 'formerly foreign guarantor.' They are domestic to the charter city.
Do they surrender their home country nationality? If not...
>No my issue is with foreign controlled exclaves which can exert disproportionate influence on the locals without being accountable to the locals whose lives they control.
It's interesting that I could swap "foreign controlled exclaves' with 'federal government' here and suddenly many would be outraged. Your argument fits in pretty neatly with anti-federalism and anti- other structures that serve to dilute the power of locals.
It's a valid point to be concerned about loss of local power. I'm skeptical that there is any practical difference here for exploitations of locals (charter-city vs non-charter-city) other than an OPPORTUNITY for competing governments models to prove themselves in a way that lets those in a constrained geographic area compare many governance models to see which works. I can see using charter cities to INCREASE local power, by creating a 'foreign guarantor' that is actually a representation of the locals, ousting much federal power.
Yes you're taking issue with a form of government inside the charter city that you would disagree with, not charter city itself. Government structures of course may take locals into account, and they may not.
> success threatens the brutal autocracy and will be crushed. Like HK.
HK wasn't crushed until it was no longer a charter city. You're actually proving the point that at least there was some window of time when there was a charter city that things were better.
[edit] They also have their own passports (HKSAR passports), speak their own language (Cantonese vs. Mandarin) and have their own script (Traditional vs. Simplified). [1] ... and their governance did not change. Basic Law has been the law of the land in HK since 1997 at the point of the handover. Sovereignty and nationality and so on are complicated things. At some point 20 years in, the guarantor decided they didn't like how things were going.
HK folks weren't 'Chinese' nationals for over 150 years until 1997.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Special_Administrati...
>HK folks weren't 'Chinese' nationals for over 150 years until 1997.
Yes until they were no longer inside of a charter city.
>They also have their own passports (HKSAR passports), speak their own language (Cantonese vs. Mandarin)
Does that make American Samoa a charter city?
> and their governance did not change
Lol
> If it were built for the good of the locals it would just be built by the host government without an outside power, through partnerships and investment.
There are plenty of reasons a host government might want or need to credibly commit to noninterference. Areas with endemic corruption have had success appointing judges or administrators from far away who don't have local family/clan ties. Countries with weak credit that want to attract foreign investments will often issue debt in foreign currency and/or under foreign law. Countries with major divisions may invite foreign peacekeepers. Etc.
> If it genuinely is well-intentioned for the "good of the locals" then of course, well-off foreigners coming in and telling the locals what's what has a very long, and very poor track record. See: uh, basically anywhere.
Local government in these places also has a long and poor track record.
I'm sure there are good and bad charter cities, but I don't see any reason to think the concept is inherently terrible.
Has there been a good charter city? I can't think of a single one. So, with that in mind, what has changed?
The proposed governance model is a foreigner gets control over a section of domestic soil, domestic individuals, makes the laws, and can bring in their overseers. This sounds like every other attempt at colonialism.
I'm just advocating for a government accountable to its people. A government not accountable to its people, sounds to me like an inherently poor idea.
Would you be ok with a CCP run charter city in the Nevada desert to mine for minerals? How about a CCP state-run enterprise controlled charter city in the Nevada desert? Or a Russian Gazprom controlled charter city in Alaska? How about one put up by a Russian oligarch? Each with their own immigration policy where the state and federal governments have limited oversight. Why is it distasteful here? I'm sure they would each argue the governance in rural America doesn't have the best track record.
This precise kind of charter city is a new kind of thing, but plenty of the closest existing or historical analogues have been successful, in as much as they've been more prosperous and more pleasant places to live than comparable cities that don't have such special treatment. Hong Kong. West Berlin. Danzig. Singapore. Shenzen. Shannon.
> The proposed governance model is a foreigner gets control over a section of domestic soil, domestic individuals, makes the laws, and can bring in their overseers. This sounds like every other attempt at colonialism.
If an unaccountable foreign entity really was running it as a possession, I agree that would be just as bad as you say it is. The positive version is if the city has first-class representation in that foreign governance. Compare somewhere like la Reunion, which is more prosperous and a better place to live than its comparable neighbours, because it's part of France, in a sense that I think is not usually understood as colonial (at least, one that is seen by its residents as positive, in a way that colonialism generally isn't).
> I'm just advocating for a government accountable to its people. A government not accountable to its people, sounds to me like an inherently poor idea.
I agree that accountability is important. I don't think central governments in developing countries are particularly good at it, to the point that I find it very plausible that a foreign-involved charter city could end up with better accountability.
> Would you be ok with a CCP run charter city in the Nevada desert to mine for minerals? How about a CCP state-run enterprise controlled charter city in the Nevada desert? Or a Russian Gazprom controlled charter city in Alaska? How about one put up by a Russian oligarch? Each with their own immigration policy where the state and federal governments have limited oversight. Why is it distasteful here? I'm sure they would each argue the governance in rural America doesn't have the best track record.
They would argue that, but they'd be wrong, wouldn't they, at least relatively speaking. The reason those examples are distasteful is, as hard as it is to make this argument without sounding naive, that the CCP and Russia have a poor track record of running governments for the benefit of their citizens, worse than rural America. Sometimes the details matter and we have to actually make a judgement about which actors are good and which are bad. I'd be perfectly OK with e.g. Norway or Switzerland sponsoring a charter city in Nevada.
Minor quibble re: Singapore, it wasn't exactly a model until it was kicked out of Malaysia (gaining sovereignty against its own will for what I believe is the first and only time ever) and was catapulted into modernity by Lee Kwan Yew.
> I'd be perfectly OK with e.g. Norway or Switzerland sponsoring a charter city in Nevada.
I think you'll find that a very unpopular opinion. America's dead set on not ceding Point Roberts after all - a tiny chunk of nothing accessible only via Canada that happens to be American due to a penmanship artifact. They get water from Canada and use the Canadian fire department. [1] Let alone carving out a portion of the contiguous states for the Norwegians.
The same system can also be used in reverse, for people who live nearby. This is especially useful for buying things from company that won't ship internationally at all, or who charge excessive fees for shipping internationally.
-Oh, Norway's already got Wisconsin, the Dakotas and Minnesota sorted - not to mention parts of Washington.
(It was surreal first time I found myself in Minnesota and a shop clerk accidentally toppled the bag she was filling with my purchase. -'Uffda!' she exclaimed, and I quizzically inquired, in Norwegian, whether she spoke Norwegian.
A second's blank stare followed, before she giggled and asked me whether I had assumed she was Scandinavian. Hence I learned of that Norwegian bit of cultural imperialism, 'Uff da!') [1]
Have you actually read Prospera's code? It's available online. Prospera is most definitely accountable.
Isn't the reason that Hong Kong has been vulnerable to increased mainland China control because it hasn't maintained many current advantages from the national government's point of view? Once mainland China was also full of wealthy and productive cities, the national government had less to lose by cracking down on Hong Kong.
Hong Kong was successful because it was ran by local Hongkongers. It began as much as like other colony. But Hong Kong become successful because it was cut out of the the colonist UK's control after WW2. It was a territory in the middle of a communist. The governor need local support in order to sustain their power. So they starts to adapt locals into the power structure. At the end, local Hongkongers were highly participating the society. But it become catastrophic in last two years because the new host country China does not like that.
In that sense, I agreed that charter city did not work, because a successful charter city will be doomed to destroy by the host country. It could either become a country or being absorbed. A colonist style charter city were problematic to start with.
But it is a good method to test new governing idea before a full adaptation to the whole country. It is like startup for government. In that sense, it is a good idea, and Hong Kong was a great experiment. China created Shenzhen based on that.
Even Shenzhen doesn't match the Romer definition which involves a foreign benefactor. Shenzhen is in China, administered by the Chinese. That may be why it works.
You answered your own question. There are many places in the world that have unaccountable governments with terrible legal systems. The idea of charter cities is to have better civic software that what is available locally.
> Remember what happened there two years ago through present?
Hong Kong did fine as long as CCP respected the One Country, Two Systems policy. Things only got bad when they tried to crack down on it. I don't see how it advances your arguments.
What if the outsiders are better at governance and development than the locals? As a Bangladeshi, I’d rather have Americans administering Bangladesh than Bangladeshis. Though I’d rather have Germans administer America than Americans…
> Telling the locals you know better than they do about how their region should be administered, while giving yourself the ability to exploit the living crap out of them thanks to your privileged position of being a foreigner is roughly how colonialism was carried out.
Hong Kong turned out pretty nicely before China took it back.
You should read the Fish that Ate the Whale. Honduras has a long history of being exploited. I can’t blame them at all for opposing this.
I'm also unclear on how narcos are involved in this.
In general this seems like "FUD".
That could be the source of the sudden renewed interest in the country.
https://bakerstreetherald.com/2020/09/case-2-private-governm...
Within the ZEDEs it seems like democracy won't really be a thing - this isn't a model we would want to see anywhere, let alone expanded.
Wouldn't it be likely that the ZEDE would welcome local merchants? I dunno about anyone else but I prefer produce/meat/etc from "nearby" rather than by boat or plane. So we gotta be missing something here.
What I got from the most unbiased sources I could find is that the Honduran government is undergoing a program called ZEDE that is making charter cities, almost like Shenzhen, that are independent of the rest of the state administratively and financially. This is at the behest of a panel of Reaganites, Chicago boys all over again. Their side insists they aren't expropriating land from residents, but that isn't extremely clear cut in a country like Honduras.
I have mixed feelings on this, these projects are surely to disrupt ways of life there and defy the notion of democracy, but they are also probably necessary given the accumulated grift and narcoviolence Honduras faces; the only way out is accelerating to cyberpunk corporate cities. I got to visit Honduras and Roatan on a family trip in 2004 - it's a lovely country that has obviously struggled mightily since then, judging by its near worst murder-per-capita rate and emigration. If only the state structures that made this a necessity weren't so sticky.
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/prospectus-on-prospera
On one hand our countries would definitely benefit from places with more straightforward regulations. I believe some successful cities in China are special economic zones and that's where they are copying the idea from.
Our day to day regulations in Central America make even cross border investment very complicated. They are simply not written in a way that are inviting for foreign investment.
Both El Salvador and Honduras have had this Special Economic Zones proposed.
They were opposed by the left wing in Honduras, and opposed by the right wing in El Salvador.
I'm not sure what will happen to them now that the left win won in Honduras.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/03/po-and-the-t...
Indeed DP world, who owns P & O, is in the running to run a free ports in the UK.
I don't see how it what they have done is legal: sacking their employees then asking them to come back, to an agency they own for way less than the UK minimum wage, to a UK based company, but there is no appetite to enforce the law.
It would be one thing if they were destroying a several hundred year old city but that doesn't seem like its the case.
Americans love to do stuff on islands like this which wrecks the coral, they won't stop flushing toilet paper or other stuff like washing all their cosmetics and stearyl alcohol soaps which wreck everything in every reef near where people settle bringing these things. It'll go from some of the world's most pristine intact scenery to trash in no time.
It's not a san francisco backyard bruh
It is not "NIMBYism" when people complain that land which they own is sold without their consent. When those people are a poor ethnic group with indigenous history on the land that is being taken away, often with force, to be sold to rich people of another ethnicity, we have moved so far away from ”NIMBYism" that we passed all the way through "gentrification" and are starting to approach "ethnic cleansing".
The same could be said of when the US forced out indigenous people off of their lands. A government pretending their theft is legal doesn't make that theft OK.
Here's one source that talks about how the Garifuna people have been treated: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-honduras-landrights-garif...
But either way, kind of crazy that the head of state can dismiss supreme court appointees
I feel like an idiot I wasn’t even thinking of Germany during the Cold War, but that’s obviously what people will think when you mention it being divided and losing a third of its territory. No when these 33% went it wasn’t to a different polity: it was to a horrible early grave as the armies of all sides believed their opponents to be working for the literal devil.
When Germany was a fragmented host of smaller principalities and free cities, before the Prussians "unified" most of it, it was in fact prospering quite nicely!