Rejection Therapy (2011)
lincolnquirk.com
lincolnquirk.com
"As an adolescent, Albert was extremely shy around ladies. At age 19, he started showing signs of thinking like a cognitive-behavioral therapist by forcing himself to talk to about 100 women in the Bronx Botanical Gardens within a period of one month. This helped him get rid of his fear of rejection by women."[1]
"He found 130 women sitting alone that month on park benches. He sat next to all of them, whereupon 30 got up and walked away. He spoke to the remaining 100 — for the first time in his life — about the birds and the bees, the flowers, books, whatever came to mind.
Al later said, "If Fred Skinner, who was then teaching at Indiana University, had known about my exploits, he would have thought I would have got extinguished, because of the 100 women I made one date — and she didn't show up!
"But I prepared myself philosophically, even then, by seeing that nobody took out a stiletto and cut my balls off, nobody vomited and ran away, nobody called the cops. I had 100 pleasant conversations and with the second 100 I got good and made a few dates." [2]
"Nobody took out a stiletto and cut my balls off" -- I've always loved that expression.
[1] https://totallyhistory.com/albert-ellis/ [2] http://www.rebtnetwork.org/ask/may06.html
I think the modern era equivalent would be having your picture taken and posted on social media with the intent of shaming you. I cannot say for sure whether it's more likely to happen, but posting a pic on twitter is significantly easier than mutilating someone with a dagger.
It'd be interesting to see how this would work out today.
Start after work today. Report in next month when you've tried 100 times.
Not in a big city either, a smaller satellite city of a bigg midwestern city.
That's what you get for making billions of video cameras, they actually get used sometimes. They're little black holes, light cannot escape them.
I've approached 1000s of people about ten years ago. Back in 2012, it wasn't an issue. The worst rejections I've faced were:
* a woman shouting very loudly to go the f- away. I immediately backed away put my hands up and replied "ok". Her loud voice grew softer as our distance grew. This was at a train station.
* I was pushed down from a stairs. I should've been hurt badly but apparently I was running so fast that my legs were keeping up with the stairs and falling from it, transforming the whole ordeal from falling to running. Interestingly enough it wasn't the woman I approached, but the boyfriend. He arrived 5 min. after I talked to her girlfriend (I had no clue) and he immediately grabbed me and threw me off the stairs. Once down the stairs (unharmed), I asked him how I was supposed to know since I saw the woman sitting alone. He told me that that wasn't his problem that he was on the bathroom for 5 min. leaving his GF alone. I told him that next time he saw a situation like that he could've just tried talking first. He replied indifferent to it. I wished him a good night. This was in a club.
* I got headbutted by a guy, simply because I wanted to make a conversation with him. He told me (sarcastically) if I liked it. I told him that I didn't and that this was the end of our conversation. I walked away, he didn't pursue (as I predicted). This was at a festival.
* I got scammed out of 5 euro's because I was making conversation with 2 Russians (10 years ago). This was on the street.
Yea, that's it. After this I get an immediate drop to stuff like "I'm sorry, but I have a boyfriend", "I'm sorry I don't feel like talking at the moment", or similar friendly sounding rejections.
So what's the upside?
* I met one woman. 2 minutes in the conversation, the topic became about ballroom dancing, taught her some ballroom on the spot. I got a rush of adrenaline and butterflies and so did she (she looked and acted different after dancing). We cuddled and kissed a lot that day. I was a teenager back then, so this was kind of the dream, lol. The conversation started off in a mall.
* A guy came couchsurfing in my place, that night I went out with him and I was crowdsurfing thanks to him. He told me to get on his hands, I didn't get it but did it anyway and he threw me in the air. I was scared but couldn't do anything. It was awesome.
* I walk in a club, see a woman, ask her a question, we chat for a minute. We start making out (I have no clue how that happened, it must've been her, I don't really dare to make moves like that) and next thing you know she invites me to go to London. The club was in Amsterdam, and the next day I took a bus to London to continue our fun dynamic.
* Making an amazing friend. In this case, I was getting invited to their high school to study there for a day and be on their graduation throwing beer all over each other while standing on the back of a truck (a tradition there, lol).
I think I'd have at least 20 stories like this. Some of these stories involve long relationships, one of them still ongoing. So for me it was definitely worth it. Interestingly, as you can read, the most aggressive rejections were all male. Women don't get physical that quickly, not in my experience anyway. Some men get physical really quickly. This also means that from my experience, it's more dangerous to try and make friends with a man than it is to try and date a woman. At least, as far as random places go (like clubs, malls, etc.).
2. Yep, all the time
3. Attractive/unattractive: unattractive from every girl I liked throughout high school, except at the end. After that many times when I approached people. When I got a bit better at expressing myself I got to hear a couple of times I was attractive.
4. Childhood was pretty messed up. I don't want to get into it. Let's say that my parents cared and I had enough food. Let's also say that I've learned too much about drugs, sexual abuse, violence and death before I was 10. Fortunately, I saw it happening around me not to me (except for bullying by some kids at my "ghetto school", but I can't blame those kids, they had it much rougher than me as they did experience some of those things directly to them). Because of this I have a unique insight into the lowest parts of Dutch society. I fought as a kid but wasn't any good at it, it was barely enough for self-defense and for kids to know I wasn't the easiest target. When I got to middle school / high school I was transferred to one of the poshest schools ever (still a public school though, the barrier to entry was having a high score to be let in as it was pre-university only, most schools offer all pre-whatever levels). I was dumbfounded by how little violence there was. In retrospect, many kids there were upperclass, I had no clue until I hit my late twenties and met upperclass people and noticed "they feel as my high school".
The biggest skill I've learned with approaching people is to not be phased by rejections. I've had amazing peaks in social suaveness from time to time but in most cases it was below mediocre.
I'd like to argue that I came a long way. But going through all this rejection and having a nice life now in the romantic / social deparment is totally worth it. It's worth all the rejection. Hell, it's even worth the uncertainty of understanding if it will ever work out. It took 3 years before I saw any results (16 to 19). I had no choice, it was either going through hell or die alone. I decided that going through hell was less painful. In retrospect, I didn't go through hell, there was some heavy turbulence but I made it seem a lot scarier than it was. And I've noticed that other people make this seem a lot scarier than it is (just read the comment section of this thread).
There are a few new opportunities, such as message boards, meet ups, social media, etc but it's become very clear to me they are mostly inferior substitutes, lacking in both quantity and quality.
Online dating took off, which is overall a good sign imo, despite its problems. However, other chance encounters mostly disappeared. This could in part explain the modern paradox of being increasingly connected but more isolated, especially in terms of diversity (people of different ages, socioeconomic groups, interests, thought patterns, political leanings etc).
Unfortunately the filters filter out good people, the algorithms are shoddy and gamed, and you genuinely don’t know if who you meet online is some weirdo who could turn out to harass or stalk you (of course there are weird people in person too, but it’s a lot harder to look and act “normal” in real life than it is on Reddit).
Agreed, but this change in topology isn't obviously beneficial or desirable. Superficial interest based similarities are not necessarily a good predictor of meaningfulness, and likely a negative predictor for understanding and acceptance of people who are different from us.
Despite this, regular chance encounters are alive and well. You can go to the gym, hang out at a pub, or stay at a coffee shop. People are typically more receptive to speak in these contexts, all of which can't be replicated in a digital space due to the reliance on physical equipment (e.g. weights, exercise machines, drinks, and coffee machines). Martial arts in particular can really expose you to people of different ages, socioeconomic groups, and interests.
Outside of these, I believe that conferences and seminars are a good way to meet others, which the internet helps with. I can see technology making these in-person activities less intuitive (it's so easy to just spend time on social media), but if there's a will to see others, technology can help rather than harm.
If anyone lives in Amsterdam and wants to meet a fellow HN'er, have a cup of coffee/tea, feel free to email me.
A few years ago I was in thread where it turned out that a couple of the commenters lived in Zurich. We thought a meet up would be a nice idea and created such a post.
Maybe a dozen people met up in a public place for beers and chats.
The effort was totally minimal and you'll find that enough participants live in Amsterdam and enjoy hooking up for such a gathering.
The only challenge, I think, is to find a public venue, which offers enough space for such an impromptu meetup.
In the Zurich case we met at http://www.ziegelohlac.ch/ (sorry, page in German) which offers enough seating and when the weather is nice, seating is essentially unlimited.
How do you identify the group? Well, we just scribbled it on an A4 page. But that wouldn't even have been necessary. You know them when you see them.
Good luck.
There was some awkwardness, but I actually made some friends and had some interesting conversations with people I would probably never speak to otherwise. When I returned to my room it was maybe two hours later and I was exhausted and had started to become drunk thanks to the customary shots of rakia I was often offered.
I think it should be a tradition of some sort.
I'm sure there's training out there to completely burn out your amygdala and turn you into a psychopath, but I wouldn't assume that's what this is.
I can see getting into the groove of it and then doing a whole lot of things that you wouldn't normally do, and then going home that night and lying awake thinking to yourself "WHAT THE HELL DID I JUST DO?!!"
Those three groups contribute substantially to what people expect when they meet a stranger in public and adding more disingenuous possibilities would make it worse.
In fact, I don't think you're quite right about the tacit assumption involved. I rather think it is assumed that if someone asks you something, they it is not for instrumental purposes. If someone is talking to me, it's because they want something; that request had better be legitimate. And this is what I find unnerving about "Rejection Therapy" and its ilk: I'm being used as a means to an end.
I think we need more interaction with no-strings-attached, not less.
The favors seem harmless, with examples from the article including asking to try someone's sunglasses or to meditate with someone. Activities like these are also a part of exposure therapy for people with anxiety and/or a speech disorder.
Separately, though this depends on your location, I already disbelieve that someone asking me for something has a good reason (which is a common attitude in dense cities). I immediately assume they're trying to pull a scam or sell me something, and most of the time, I'm correct. (A funny example of this attitude is one of the top posts on r/AskNYC, though I'm not based there [0].) If someone were to approach me just as an exercise to address a psychological issue, that would be a far better outcome than what I would expect.
[0] "Millionth Cyclist on Manhattan Bridge" https://old.reddit.com/r/AskNYC/comments/dk76kv/millionth_cy...
There's probably tons of things that can make people anxious. I'm not going to lock myself in the house to avoid making others anxious.
As a socially anxious person myself, I would love for someone to start the conversation with me.
I hear you--I dealt with social anxiety severely for many years and still do to a lesser extent. But nothing about this justifies cynically exploiting people under false pretenses for selfish ends.
If you want to talk to strangers, great! Just don't deceive them for selfish ends.
But the issue of not communicating for selfish ends seems, not possible. Isn't all conversation, in some form, selfish? You're wanting information from other people (how their day was, what they're interested in), you want to vent about a topic, you want to communicate something that excites yourself and feel a connection, you want to get information for certain actionable issues. Even a purely altruistic use of listening to someone in need has its own selfish motivations, to strengthen a friendship, or to feel good about helping someone else (why do we help people in the first place? Does it feel good to follow our own principles?). There's definitely a spectrum there, and us, trying to perceive someone else's intent, is the framing that would make it right/wrong.
In the long run, it's likely worse for society as a whole if people have social anxiety that could be treated. Left untreated, social anxiety can lead to antisocial behaviors and other psychological ailments (e.g. severe depression). If I can respond to a minor request that helps in some way to alleviate this, I don't mind. Part of the issue is related to the degree of the ask. I genuinely wouldn't mind someone asking me for directions, as it's a short-term commitment that is a quick ask (and if it would, I can just decline to help). If anything, most people would feel positively by being able to help another person in a minor way.
I wouldn't even frame it as selfish. Leaving anxiety untreated can cause behavior that can be seen as selfish down the road, while actively seeking to treat it via minor requests can help one be in a better position to help others down the road.
Challenging your own anxiety - and breaking out of your shell - should not be part of some group exercise. The article implies that a group of people were let loose with instructions to bother people:
> Once we got downtown and the exercise officially began, I achieved slightly above my own expectations, which were fairly low. I approached maybe 12-15 people total, in an hour and a half. (Some of the others reported approaching two or three times that number.)
:/
He doesn’t even want these things. May I try on your sunglasses? Can I have a taste of your ice cream?
I guess they set the bar low to encourage the experimenters. “Don’t worry you can ask for anything — ask for a dollar! Borrow their newspaper!”
I would be more open to it if they had done some thinking. What’s something you genuinely need? Go ask for it. But I guess that’s not as simple. This is just street side IRL spam. Can I have those plastic flowers that I don’t want by which I mean can I waste your time with a nonsense game so I fresh content for my blog?
It’s also fundamentally selfish: “ask random strangers to do you favors”
Why not go out into the world and ask if you can do favors? Find a homeless guy or gal. Ask if he wants your shoes. Ask if she needs a dollar. Then you at least anticipate finding people who welcome partition in your psychological experiment.
From the article: "Examples would be asking for their newspaper, or asking for a few dollars, or a phone number, or to try on their shoes. Or going into a store and asking for some free food. [...] I asked for a number of newspapers. I asked to take the plastic flowers from a storefront. I asked to borrow board games from the board game store. I asked to climb a ladder that a construction worker was setting up – and he let me!"
For what it's worth, the food sample and plastic flowers requests are made from businesses, were the requests aren't too unreasonable (samples are normal to ask where I live, and the flower request can be paid back with repeat business). However, I admit that the sunglasses request was strange (along with the suggestion to try someone's shoes).
I like the spirit behind asking if you can do others favors, but I predict it might weaken the exercise. The behavior is targeting a reluctance to ask for help and favors from others when it counts (it's important for long-term wellbeing to have a balance between taking and giving, versus just giving). It's easier to get rejected when asking to help another person, versus when facing rejection when doing something for yourself (e.g. applying to a job or opportunity).
On the ice cream, I was referring to this catchy tune and Apple advertising:
Enjoy!
It's honestly a little heartening that comments on HN don't immediately recognize the movement anymore.
So I think it's a delicate balancing act, and there's no easy test for whether it's good or bad. I think holistically it can come down to what kind of energy you're putting into your environment, and whether it's positive or negative.
The value of social alienation is that you can walk down a crowded street and not be asked by every single person how your day is going, what you got up to last night, how your cat's doing, etc. etc. Caring about the intimate details of everyone else's life just doesn't scale. At some point you need to be able to call out some people as being more important to you than others, and ignore the rest.
And of course, this can damage you emotionally, make you numb to the needs of others, and prevent you from forming a community with the people around you.
Social forces encourage people to engage in profitable activities like media consumption over unprofitable activities like community engagement, and the transient and impersonal nature of employment prevents people from easily making connections in the place they spend most of their time around others.
To the extent we do not have enough pro social behavior, injecting random kindness encourages more. Showing up and demanding nonsense favors encourages less.
That's pretty different to me from making a request that's pushy enough that someone has to "reject" it in order to say no.
Yes, in a way we are always using others as means to an end. But to make this interpretation true, I have to really push the boundaries of what I mean by using others, by mean, and by end.
However, let us try to think this from a different perspective. How about what others in this _experiment_ felt? How would you feel if someone came out of nowhere and asked you to give them this or that when you cannot even fathom why they are doing it?
To me, this so-called therapy may work for the people exposing themselves in order to get exposed to negative reactions. But this is just a very self-centered way of treating other people as cardboard cutouts, not as real persons. They are merely background features like trees, cars or streetlights.
In the end, maybe you get a kick out of getting out of your comfort zone. But you're also training yourself to be indifferent to the feelings of others. If that's the trade-off of this _therapy_, no thank you.
Obsessive focus on the feelings and opinions of others (self consciousness) is at the root of many people's social anxiety.
Complete indifference makes you a pyschopath but there's such a thing as being too concerned about other people's feelings.
To open your mouth and speak to another person is to risk offending them. There are people who are so afraid of that possibility that they never speak. In that case, less empathy/more indifference is good.
That being said, I have an issue with this being called 'therapy'. It may as well be, if we just think about the person receiving the benefit. However, it's a bit predatory through the lense of the other person.
But it's like you said. It's not binary. Yes, it bothers me a little. Nonetheless, as with everything, it may have its uses.
Again, thanks for your comments.
The point of rejection therapy is to make a request in a pushy enough way for something that the other person doesn't want to do that they end up assertively saying no.
It's not "friendly offer therapy" or "polite decline therapy".
My point is that you don't have to push other people into strange territory to get rejected.
If it's not your honest intention to date them, that's still a shitty thing to do.
Would you want someone doing this to you?
At that point, you're not doing "rejection therapy", you're just asking people out.
> Why would you be nervous to be rejected by someone you wouldn't actually want to date and thus weren't invested in the answer?
The premise behind rejection therapy is that some people do feel intense anxiety about being rejected even in cases where the stakes are low like this, and deliberately seeking rejection is essentially exposure therapy to get over that.
Both activities have a useful end, and would let someone assertively say no.
Talking about the weather = using strangers as unwitting tools in your compulsive need for social interaction.
How about rejection therapy = "Harmlessly interacting with other humans to overcome your trauma, so you can become a more productive member of society"?
The whole point of "rejection therapy" is to interact with a stranger that pushes against their boundaries such that they feel the need to assert themselves in order to reject you.
I'm all about helping people overcome their trauma, but not at the expense of making nonconsenting strangers uncomfortable.
Did you read the article? Rejection therapy isn't just talking to someone. It's making some kind of request of them that you know they don't want to do in order to force them to actively reject you so that you can experience the rejection.
It's not, "Hey, how's the weather." It's, "Can I see what's in your wallet?"
This could be discouraging towards “new” employees though. Maybe they should walk around and learn getting rejected… oh well
I may not like it, but people regularly approach to ask for money, to sign up for a recurring donation, to sign a petition, to give a flyer, to sell a CD of music (yes, even in modern times), or to give a product sample. I may also get photographed by a street photographer. A small request that can help someone with their problems looks relatively mild compared to most of these other actions.
I've always liked how Terry Pratchett put it: “Individuals aren't naturally paid-up members of the human race, except biologically. They need to be bounced around by the Brownian motion of society, which is a mechanism by which human beings constantly remind one another that they are...well...human beings.”
If the theory endorses selfish deceptions then its not worth adherence. If it doesn't endorse them, then it doesn't support the practice in the article, and its not worth discussing here.
Contriving a way to talk to a stranger such that your goal is to force them so far outside of their comfort zone that they assertively reject you is not great.
These are not at all the same thing. I'm not saying don't talk to strangers. I'm saying don't use unwitting strangers in your contrived boundary pushing scenarios for your own psychological growth at the expense of their comfort and consent.
You wouldn't walk around putting spiders on people and tell them, "It's cool, bro, I'm just doing spider therapy."
Putting spiders on people is immoral because it causes psychological distress and potential harm due to spider bites. However, other behaviors are far more reasonable (e.g. asking for their newspaper, for a few dollars, or for a food sample from, say, an ice cream store). In isolation, these other behaviors sound perfectly reasonable in other contexts.
However, I agree with you for some of the other examples in the article (e.g. asking to try on someone's shoes or someone's sunglasses) wouldn't be reasonable or useful in other contexts.
https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/patients-and-families/exp...
I've been engaging in a lot more smalltalk. I'm very rusty at it to be honest (no one talks to anyone in cities), but I think overall it's been good to me.
Asking for favours though... I don't know, seems a little weird. I'd be extremely mistrustful of any strangers asking me for a favour.
He emailed me back with a thoughtful reply. I appreciated it (he told me my idea is bad, which I appreciate, sting as it does).