I find these kind of beliefs baffling, from anywhere in the world. It would be trivial to prove any of these work, and yet no one will. Surely they know it doesn’t actually work?
In his pocket was a black amulet, a small leather pouch containing supposedly magic charms, that he said was for protection. However, he was not interested in publicly demonstrating its powers, not even for $6,000.
This man wouldn't prove his powers, even when he could only stand to gain from it. People act the exact same way everywhere when it comes to this type of belief.
But let's say we live in a magical universe in which juju is real and yet someone is foolish enough to offer a lot of money for a proof.
How would the prover lose social standing? He proved wrong that obnoxious nay-sayer. He'd be a juju hero, with stars in his eyes. Or maybe not. If juju were real, he would also have been trampled by a throng of others trying similarly to get the easy money.
What I suspect is that there might be an element in the juju mythology which stipulates that any wielder of juju power who tries to prove juju to nonbelievers will die.
Saw a documentary back in the 90s about similar stuff in India - a group of young "rationalists" going around debunking stuff. I wonder has it made any material difference in the last 30 years
I just tried to find it on YouTube but like most primary sources its been buried by SEO and cute thumbnails.
I disagree that one can only stand to gain from "proving" the supernatural. The value is in that it is not provable; thus it is also not debunkable or replicable.
do you have proof that it's not provable?
My point is, a little humility and willingness to understand others goes a long way.
If you're stuck in orbit around the earth and thrust towards the earth in an attempt to get home, you'll just waste a lot of energy and end up further away instead when you run out of fuel before you're done.
There are beliefs who inflict evil upon this world and they must be socially condemned as such, and any crimes committed in the name of such beliefs should be punished with the full weight of the law.
I would also personally argue that if the belief pertains to a cult, religion or similar group that encourages sharing the belief that lead to the crime, an additional penalty for criminal incitement should also apply; for any legislation where incitement is a thing that is.
As programmers (and fields adjacent) it’s seems foolish to react to something before we even understand it.
This is why the west is being divided so much on so many simple issues. Vaccines,politics, education, you name it. You are right, they are evil. Who cares why? The other side feels the the same, so what now? Go ahead and start killing then? Or maybe some 17 year old kid should wear a uniform and do it for you?
I will never understand people that think this way. I remember a guy who was in the military getting angry at me when I said we should understand ISIS, to him the only thing we should do is bomb them, understanding meant undermining his country. How utterly foolish! People like this are fathers and mothers of tragedy. Even if all you want to do is to destroy the other side, isn't it best to understand them well so that you know how you can harm them with minimal risk and effort from you?
Do you really think you can convince others what they do is wrong without understanding their beliefs and approaching them with humility so they can hear your perspective?
Forget foreign places, if you live in democracy, this is literally your civic duty: to convince other voters of your views!
Do they think abortions don't work??
I doubt it.
If someone has a charm that can make a person turn into a cat, it would be trivial to show that it works.
> everything suddenly decided to exist all on its own and that people are really well-bred apes?
Well they're the current theories with the best evidence. If someone can show me an alternative explanation for either that has more physical evidence and a compelling theory to explain it, I'm all ears.
It could be rare and conditional and the typical claim is it was demonstrated many times. What you are really asking is why can't it be reproduced ondemand with any condition.
> If someone has a charm that can make a person turn into a cat, it would be trivial to show that it works.
With many myths, it involves preconditions and activators. Not trivial. The underlying reason for the belief system is what sustains it, not the superficial activity you take at face value and evaluate against your way of thinking.
> Well they're the current theories with the best evidence. If someone can show me an alternative explanation for either that has more physical evidence and a compelling theory to explain it, I'm all ears.
Under your belief system where indviduals evaluate correctness of evidence and best theories are practically equivalent to fact that makes sense. Billions don't share your belief system but they do share a planet with you. Also, why would random people care about proving things to you, have yoy considered they just don't care if you accept their belief or not? Most of the time most believers of a belief system ask for respect and with that, for the curious they are open to explain it to you. Your pursuit of correctness and standards of reason can be different from others. Ultimately truth does not care what you believe but in your pursuit of truth, you must not consider others unworthy of your respect or understanding unless you have acheived knowledge of absolute and complete truth.
People in traditional societies do not think physicality or empiricism is the primary way of determining what is true.
These people are showing you that fear, desperation, and hope lead them to believing a narrative that requires them to take another human being's life in the hope of gaining some physical advantage for themselves. They are literally sacrificing another human being for the hope of improving their own future.
Is what they are doing based on some empirical evidence? No. Are the effects of what they believe still real? Yes. Their hierarchy of ontology has a coherence of its own and allows their society to function, and is a very ancient structure. The concept of the "evil eye" (which is tightly related to these African practices) is a very old mechanism for managing wealth (and good or bad fortune) in communities for thousands of years.
To come along and say "well, this is nonsense. Let's convince them they're wrong by using physical evidence to prove it!" seems pretty hubristic.
Otherwise, no. In this particular case, you'd simply be trying to get people to stop killing innocents in the name of spiritual/religious beliefs; something that is clearly evil and, in my opinion, so is anyone who tries to pretend it is not whether they believe that honestly or is just arguing in bad faith.
<sarcasm> Cool cool cool... Back to the topic of that juju which makes you stab proof. I'm sure you don't mind if I stab you while you hold on to it. Would that be okay with the hierarchy of being and the hierarchy of meaning? Not proving anything mind you, i would never ever do anything as violent as trying to force my materialist worldview on you. </sarcasm>
That being said probably juju which is supposed to bring you diffuse and probabilistic benefit is dime a dozen, while ones bringing you easy to verify, concrete, and immediate benefits are harder to find. Such is life I guess. :)
There's also a false dichotomy here: you don't ether have to have respect for base superstition or subscribe to materialism. There's plenty of room for philosophies that reject both horns of this dilemma.
Are you saying no one actually believes you turn into a cat but it has some other meaning apart from the literal meaning of those words?
I'm sure there's also beliefs I hold that would fit this description as well, though I try to be as open-minded as possible and willing to let go beliefs that don't stand up to scrutiny. I've definitely changed my mind on many things over the years as I learn more. Some beliefs are hard to disprove.
But some are trivial.
But if someone wants to sell me a charm that makes them stab-proof, I'm not paying until I see it in action. You don't need to be a scientist to think of an experiment that determines if it works.
> Surely they know it doesn’t actually work?
I know at least one source for the misconception that carrots make your eyesight better: a WW2 lie to hide the fact of the existence of either radar or encryption breaking (I forget which).
But someone who actually believed carrots make your eyesight better might try to test it for themselves. They may even keep on deluding themselves after doing an experiment (hey, the placebo effect is strong).
What about someone who believes a juju amulet makes them impervious to stabbing. Would they be willing to try it? You offer to stab at their heart with all your might, and if they survive you give them money. Do they accept your offer? If they don't -- and they never do -- what is happening is that they suspect it doesn't really work.
It reminds me of Jack London's story, "Lost Face": https://americanliterature.com/author/jack-london/short-stor...
I used to think carrots made your eyesight better, because that's what I was taught. I've since let go of that belief in light of new understanding and evidence. That is a claim that's harder to demonstrate, so it takes time to learn the truth of the matter.
If was selling you a charm that made you bulletproof, it would be trivial to demonstrate. I'd wear it and you'd shoot me and I would be unharmed. But I'd wager money that no vendor selling such a charm would ever agree to such a simple demonstration of their wares.
This is a common theme with all such rites.