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Comment by clairity | Hacker News Reader

my dog exhibits insecurity (as discussed in the article) mostly in relation to me, as well as some strangers who she deems to be sketchy in some way. the first months were spent working through severe anxiety (and cleaning up overnight fear diarrhea) while slowly building trust at home. she was hyper-sensitive to my moods and movements, and would hyperventilate if she thought i was even slightly upset with her. this is why i think she was probably abused by her previous caretaker(s).

thankfully, she's gotten much better, and now enjoys a mostly carefree and social dog life, though she's still vigilant and standoffish at times with both humans and other dogs. i can definitely see parallels to human behaviors, and even use techniques you might use with people to build up her confidence (as well as curb unwanted behavior). she's been great overall, and i wouldn't trade her for the world.

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How did you work through your dog’s anxiety and build trust with her?

lots of love, playful interaction, encouragement... and chicken treats. but it was mostly time, i'd say. she needed to know for herself that her environment, and most importantly i, was safe. even though she was scared, she was a willing participant, which was crucial (she was always very attentive, like she was always trying very hard to understand what was going on). sometimes, it was just ignoring her while i did my usual activities. other times, it was exhibiting positive attention on her, and minimizing opportunities for the negative.

i also worked on desensitizing her to certain triggers that would bring out fear aggression (which was rare, but as such, surprising when it happened), like reaching for her head, by doing it over and over at spontaneous moments to show her that it wasn't dangerous to her (and giving her treats for good behavior, and a tiny, gentle scolding for bad).

mind you, she was a mild case as far as all this goes, but it still required focused and prolonged attention.

We had our pup on an SSRI for about eight months when she was a puppy. We got her at three months old and she had been born in rescue. So we knew her history from birth and knew she wasn't abused, she was just a naturally very anxiety prone dog. After a month of being with us and just not getting over her anxiety (she was basically miserable whenever any humans were around) the vet suggested the drugs. They worked wonders, and after she'd grown a bit and come to accept us as "her people", we weened her off the drugs and all went well.

At four years old, she's still an anxious dog, and always will be, but she's content in her home life now and likes to be with us. She's still very wary of strangers, and really doesn't like being out in more human dense areas, but it's easy enough to keep her activities to things she likes. And she's decided that my mom and her animals are the best thing on the planet, so she gets lots of visits to "Gramma's farm".

Makes you wonder about the epigenetics of anxiety.. if her mother was stressed before giving birth, did that stress have an effect.

I also have a rescue that acted like she might have been abused. She was really afraid of men in particular but not women.

It just took time. She’s still a little more shy around men 10 years later but it’s of no consequence. Once she realized how much we cared for her she turned around quickly.

Overnight nervous diarrhea? In your home? Tons of effort to keep that from happening, and to have a pet that doesn’t destroy your home?

I really don’t understand dog ownership.

Well, if you anthropomorphize your dog, it's like having a little human in the house.

And you shouldn’t. I love dogs, I hate people and their dogs, mostly. They treat dogs like funny looking needy people instead of respecting them for what they are, animals with animal thoughts, animal feelings, and animal behaviors.

> animals with animal thoughts, animal feelings, and animal behaviors.

If you pay close attention, you'll realize that's exactly what humans are, too.

Not the norm

it was stressful for the first few weeks, but that's adoption, even with other humans. she's much better, and it was a rewarding experience for me, so win-win in my book.

she didn't want to poop uncontrollably, and knew it was 'bad', but she couldn't help it until she could get her own fear and anxiety under control. human babies poop uncontrollably too, for much longer even. eventually i learned to put pee pads everywhere in her (initial) sleeping area, and just threw out the ones that were soiled in the morning. it wasn't that big of a deal, and certainly didn't "destroy" anything.

I find the comparisons with human babies odd. They’re not comparable.

If an animal evolves to exploit the parenting drive of a host species, that’s called a parasite.

There’s a reason why during/post-pregnant women have a strong (but not universal) tendency to reject the family dog(s).

Do you have any kids? It's not much of a difference.

I was in a similar situation.

My vet saw me on day 3 with my rescue and he warned me it would be months to years to correct. He advised me as a first time owner to return the dog and I did.

Glad OP was a better person and had the time, patience and love to share.

Some dogs are easier than others. Don't worry about it. I also returned a dog where it just didn't work. Got a different one later and we bonded very well.

> I really don’t understand dog ownership.

Dogs are wonderful.

What I don't understand is letting them into your home. Disgusting. Some people even let them on their beds, which is truly bonkers. Why anyone would let naked dog butt, complete with poopy fur, onto their bed, is beyond understanding.

Last time I checked the dog butt is covered in fur. Also dogs have a prolapsed anus...

Where are you from that dogs are not seen as family members?

Also what about children? They are not exactly known to be clean either.

Letting dogs into your house is a cultural thing. Amongst old-school US Southerners who love their dogs, it's seen as bizarre. I'm pretty sure among most cultures who keep dogs, it's seen as bizarre.

> Where are you from that dogs are not seen as family members?

Where did you get that idea? My dogs absolutely are members of the family. They don't get to live in my house though, just like the dozens of other relatives I have who don't share my roof.

> Also what about children? They are not exactly known to be clean either.

Children don't enter the house with dirty feet. They don't lie in the dirt outside and then come and nap on the couch.

They wipe their butts and shower twice a day.

Most dogs live free, out in the open. I'd bet only a small proportion of the worlds dogs are kept indoors.

both my cat and dog sleep on my bed, and both are surprisingly clean and self-attentive about grooming. but like children, they do get dirty more easily and spread it more easily. that's why we have sinks and showers and washing machines, for them and for our own dirty selves.

and as with caretaking humans, i do clean my dog's (and very rarely, my cat's) butt with wet wipes if she happens to get some poop on her fur, but that doesn't happen too often since she doesn't like it either and positions herself to avoid it.

dogs need social interaction, especially with their humans and with their dog friends, to avoid (specific) behavioral problems. if you have only one dog, it's often easiest to fulfill that need by allowing it indoors to be with its human(s).

> What I don't understand is letting them into your home.

Then of course you wouldn't do it, and nobody is saying you should. But other people who have their dogs in their homes understand it just fine. Live and let live.

Absolutely!

If your dog, inside or outside dog, has a poopy butt you should do something about it. Some breeds need trims back there from time to time.

I personally don’t understand people that get breeds that shed like crazy as indoor dogs, or people that get large dogs and keep them cooped up all day.

I guess your problem is seeing it as ownership instead of companionship.

It's definitely ownership. They didn't choose to be with you and can't choose to leave, and you have the power of life and death over them.

Do you own your kids?

Do you neuter your kids?

I don't neuter my dog? Wtf. The vast majority of Northern Europe also doesn't neuter their dogs. Hell, Norway apparently considers it animal abuse (which I think I agree with mostly due to the negative effects of lacking hormones)

The Norwegian Animal Welfare Law of 2010 §9, 2nd paragraph reads “Det skal ikke gjøres operative inngrep eller fjernes kroppsdeler på dyr uten at det foreligger forsvarlig grunn ut fra hensynet til dyrets helse.” - “No surgery or removal of body parts of animals can be done except when there is a proper reason considering the animal’s health”.

That means no tail dockings, no ear cropping, and no castrations.

This is a tangent, but I recently spent some time trying to decide whether to neuter my cat. I don't know how different this is for dogs, but female cats tend to act as if they are in quite a bit of distress while in heat. They also tend to enter heat something like one week per month unless pregnant, and they go back to the same cycle a few weeks after giving birth.

So, a female cat in nature can either endure being in heat with no relief about a quarter of her life, or give birth about three times a year (wrecking her body). I'm not convinced neutering her was a less humane choice (neutered female cats also have the longest lifespan on average).

I think in dogs there is the additional issue where neutering is often used as a replacement for proper training.

It's complicated, though. I'd have preferred to keep my male dog intact, but once he matured he was constantly getting attacked by other males, and it made walks miserable for him, not to mention dangerous. To see how castration would affect him, we gave him a hormone implant which has the same effect, but wears off after a few months. He didn't get attacked any more, so we made it permanent.

He leads a safer, happier life now because we made that choice. It has certain downsides, like some loss of muscle tone and a greater tendency to put on fat, but it's totally manageable. It doesn't completely cut testosterone production, it just reduces it by 90% or so, as some is still made in the adrenal glands.

Until they're 18, more or less

> They didn't choose to be with you and can't choose to leave, and you have the power of life and death over them.

This is an "interesting" mentality I see a lot. Ever dog I ever had was a stray and could leave if they wanted to. I don't really get people who think this way, but it seems really prevalent.

I mean a raccoon will keep coming to my house if I feed it, does that mean we have companionship?

It is bizarre that you think the human/dog relationship is analogous to one with a raccoon.

You seem to disagree with the entire concept of domestication, which means you disagree with mountains of scientific facts along with billions of people's personal experiences with pets.

You can domesticate raccoons.

My point is - an animal that sticks around is not necessarily a companion. It could just see you as a reliable source of food.

I'm a reliable source of food for my wife. But I would like to think she also sees me as a companion xD

I hope I shouldn't be expected to starve her to test this theory!

Domestication is a defined term referring to animals that have significantly evolved in instinct and, often, physiology to be useful and cooperative to humans. You can't domesticate a raccoon.

They don’t see it that way.

Dogs are pack animals, they are wired to integrate into the social fabric they find themselves in.

The two species have been co-developing together for 50,000 years, you might not get it, but others do.

Even if that were remotely true, why would you assume co-evolution produced symbiosis instead of a parasitical relationship?

Now, the reality is, the modern pathological, codependent, indoor dog ownership model did not exist in any significant prevalence until the past twenty years.

I live in a rural area, our dog has a doggy door and we have no fence. She’s completely free to leave. The same goes for my two dogs growing up.

They all would/would have defended me with their lives. I once had to charge a deer with a fawn that was stomping on my current (12 pound) dog, so you could say I’ve at least somewhat approached the same.

For what it’s worth I’m sure all of the dogs could have survived on their own, at least in the summer.

"They all would/would have defended me with their lives."

This can be seen as an instance of manipulation and deprivation of free will on a species level, as dogs have been deliberately bred by humans to have these traits.

Though, then again one could question whether animals (or humans, for that matter) have free will to begin with, even if they're not bred to have traits that are desirable to humans.

Oh, it’s ownership alright, it’s just the human usually doesn’t realize who owns him.

I'll grant you that in most cases they did not choose to be with you on the day you brought them home. But aside from cases where they're constantly inside, fenced in, leashed, or the like, can you explain why they can't choose to leave? Plenty of animals stay when there's no external force preventing them from leaving.

As a personal anecdote, at a previous place where I lived (a large property), one day a cat showed up off the street. Plenty of cats would come and go relatively often, and they'd bolt if you got too close. This one was okay with being around humans. It looked hungry, so I gave it some food, and saw it again soon after. It wasn't long before it was living on the property full-time, outside. I fed it, and took it to the vet. It turned out she was pregnant, likely from before she arrived, and she ended up having the litter there.

Did I own that cat? If so, at what point did that ownership begin?

Modern dogs are social creatures. They literally wouldn't survive in the wild. Even as far back as histories go, humans and dogs have had a symbiotic relationship.

To compare dog ownership to say, slavery or the like, is ludicrous. It's definite survival for the dog, and all too often survival for the human as well in the form of companionship, emotional support, and of course typical working dog duties.

I guess I understand your take from a logical, outside view. But not from someone who has ever lived with a dog.

> To compare dog ownership to say, slavery or the like, is ludicrous. It's definite survival for the dog, and all too often survival for the human as well in the form of companionship, emotional support, and of course typical working dog duties.

History tells us some people also had strong relationships with slaves as well. It doesn’t change the fundamental nature of the relationship being a massive power imbalance with no autonomy on one side. (I say this as a super happy dog owner)

This is incorrect.

Dogs don’t just survive, they thrive. In Romania the government resorted to mass killing of dogs because they bred so successfully. Also in poor countries and remote places where you wouldn’t expect there to be excess food for strays.

Dog ownership is very often slavery. The nature of the slavery is very explicit - the dog’s work is to sniff drugs all their life, or retrieve dead game, or guide people. In other cases you can read in this thread, a past owner has had a captive dog and abused them for who knows what reason.

> Tons of effort to keep that from happening, and to have a pet that doesn’t destroy your home?

It's their home too.

OP's situation was a rescue dog from a likely abusive previous home. There are often pets available for people who are not able to handle that situation; My dog peed on the rug occasionally for about 3 weeks, and pooped indoors twice, and it's not happened again in 3 years. To pull the "children" card, children make huge messes, cannot be unattended or unsupervised for years, destroy homes, and yet that's not seen as "burdensome"

Children are seen as burdensome, but as most parents will say: "It's all worth it, you get so much in return"...

I think what parent was really asking is "why bother having a dog at all"?

Companionship and undying loyalty. They are fun to have around.

It’s undying physical and emotional dependence, not loyalty.

That said, maybe that’s fun for you; everyone has their own preferences.

This comment seems needlessly condescending.

It looks like the concept of dog ownership is making you worried or puzzled? In the past I also didn’t get dog ownership and now it makes sense to me, if that helps. I’m not saying that it should make sense to you (see also my earlier comment [1]).

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30741072

I think the relationship is itself pathological, and it’s burdensome to the rest of us that have to deal with modern codependent dog owners bringing their ill-behaved pet everywhere.

As opposed to a cohort of self-centered, relationship handicapped, intolerant jerks prone to narrow mindedness and rude rants on discussion forums and elsewhere, I know which one I would prefer to have for a harmonious society and whom I find more offensive.

> self-centered, relationship handicapped, intolerant jerks prone to narrow mindedness and rude rants on discussion forums and elsewhere

You could easily be describing the dog owners here who were just confronted with the fact that their emotional codependency with a dirty animal — and tendency to replace healthy human relationships, foisting their pet onto others in public, at restaurants, on trails, et al — is not, in fact, a behavior subject to universal acclaim.

I agree about causing actual inconvenience in public places, this shouldn't happen. But why are you bothered by the fact that some people are emotionally codependent with a dirty animal? I think you should either let people and dogs enjoy each other; or show some actual proof that the human-dog relationship is harmful; but many sources say otherwise [1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human–canine_bond#Benefits

> it’s burdensome to the rest of us that have to deal with modern codependent dog owners bringing their ill-behaved pet everywhere.

I have had _far_ more issues with people bringing their ill behaved friends/children/parents places than I have with pets. If you go out to a café for lunch, it's acceptable to leave children run around because that's what kids do, but dogs are almost always kept quietly under the table out of the way. It's common for people to blast crappy music on the beach that everyone else around them has to listen to, or for them to leave rubbish behind them, yet it's expected (rightly so) that I pick up after my dog and keep her out of the way of other people on the beach.

The bit about pathological relationship seems very subjective. I'm guessing you've had bad experiences with dog owners or pets. Obviously the human-dog relationship should be good for all parties involved.

I agree about ill-behaving pets; a lot of people should take better care of their dogs. E.g. invest more in socialising, avoid places where the dog is uncomfortable, etc.

It's the exact same response, you get so much in return!

> It's their home too.

It’s not. You’re choosing to allow a very dirty animal to inhabit your home. There’s a difference.

> To pull the "children" card …

Children are seen as burdensome, but they are also seen as human, and eventually, will be human adults.

They also tend to not do things like eat your furniture, can be more regularly bathed, and smell a lot better, too.

Oh, and they’re humans. Did I mention that already? If a non-human animal is slotting itself into our biological drive to parent, that’s a parasite.

Jeez, what's with the hate? Why do you have such a problem with somebody else caring about an animal as if it were family?

> It’s not.

It is.

> Children are seen as burdensome

Children are burdensome full stop. They eat my money, which hurts me more than if they chewed on the furniture.

> Oh, and they’re humans.

Yes, they are. The waste of resources and pollution they imply is massive compared to dogs. But why caring about the environment, there's a lot of everything for everyone laying around, isn't it.

> non-human animal is slotting itself

He hasn't. He roams around freely.

> You’re choosing to allow a very dirty animal

Yes it's my choice and it gets as dirty as my kid does. Guess what, they're animals. Did you notice already? They're animals like you.

> It’s not. You’re choosing to allow a very dirty animal to inhabit your home. There’s a difference.

My home with a dog is much cleaner than most of my friends with toddlers. My dog keeps herself _mostly_ clean and groomed, my friends kids do _not_.

> They also tend to not do things like eat your furniture, can be more regularly bathed, and smell a lot better, too.

Not all dogs chew destructively, and most that do tend to have other behavioural issues. Are you really claiming that children _aren't_ destructive to your home? My parents tell the story of the time I decided that the TV character was thirsty so I poured a soda into the VCR over the CRT TV and destroyed both of them. Dogs don't sweat, so they dont' _need_ to be bathed as regularly. Sure she rolls around in crap in the park every few days and gets hosed down in the bath, but that's about the extent of it really.

> Oh, and they’re humans. Did I mention that already?

Children being human doesn't mean that dogs don't deserve to coexist with us.

That's like hearing about someone who adopted an incontinent, abused child from foster care and loudly proclaiming how you don't understand child-rearing for the same reasons.

Nothing wrong with you not understanding dog ownership; it requires a passion. Note that while you sacrifice something, you also get something in exchange. I guess it’s similar to how some people don’t want to have kids or start a company; nothing wrong with that either.

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