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Comment by Loic | Hacker News Reader

I canceled in January. It takes several clicks through buttons and sometimes small links. It alternates the styles with negative or positive wording sentences, alternate offers. They try to convince you to get an email reminder 3 days before the renewal date instead of canceling. After you canceled, the only call to action on the confirmation page is to cancel the cancelation. You immediately get an email to easily cancel the cancelation as confirmation that you canceled.

I was prepared for a dark pattern fight, I was not disappointed!

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It is a linguistic maze. The readership here is literate and even we endure mental strain navigating this viper's nest. I've went to buy a paperback and found myself signed up with Prime with just one wayward click, and I was being very cautious.

Now imagine how it is for those less familiar with letters. How many folks only notice they've a Prime subscription when the montly bank statement arrives?

It's a shame. I used to think so highly of Amazon.

Yeah, my Grandma (chemo-brain-fog-addled at the time, now just terminal-cancer-brain-fog-addled...) accidentally signed up for Prime while buying a Secret Santa gift, had to help fix that (she didn't even know that she had an Amazon account, much less that she had a monthly Prime subscription).

Slightly off-topic, but I'm sorry for your situation. I'm glad your grandma has you to help.

We need to fix this.

We should take this completely out of companies' hands. The incentives are too perverse and too prevalent for anything good to come out of playing dark pattern whack-a-mole through legislation or, worse, "promoting dark pattern awareness" or some other brand of blame-dodging hogwash. Companies are stealing money and getting away with it. We have the technology to stop them. We should stop them.

I suspect the easiest way to do it would be to give credit card company cancellation buttons legal bite: unless someone signs physical papers and does credit checks (e.g. for housing and utilities), nonpayment must be respected as a request to cancel and not creatively misinterpreted as an invitation to extend credit, charge fees, and accumulate interest.

What is the technology to stop them?

Non-payment by credit card networks

But they'll never take that leap of faith absent a law mandating it. There's not enough competition between the major issuing networks.

Nah, CC providers would love to provide subscription management and cancellation services. They implement dumber and more expensive gimmick services all the time. They'd implement this one in a heartbeat if they could.

Right now, they can't, because they have no privileged way to cancel a service on the user's behalf. They can withhold payment, yes, but under current consumer contract law withholding payment doesn't imply cancellation. We should change the law so that it does. Once the law changes, they would implement "cancel buttons" and "subscription management" so fast your head would spin -- and then they would flood TV and youtube with ads about it, and they would bug you every time you logged into your CC statement for the next year.

The self-interest on the credit card company's part requires they have a financial incentive. I don't think they care about customer satisfaction enough.

... the way to do it would be to disincentivize subscription companies from having credit card companies involved in cancellations.

(1) Pass laws to empower credit card companies to cancel services on a user's behalf, if the user so requests + (2) Allow CC companies to collect a fee from the subscription service when they do so.

CC companies will implement the feature as a profit source, but subscription services will also be incentivized to flow cancellations through themselves (because it's cheaper) thus leading to more streamlined cancellation.

It could also become a competitive / marketing advantage for the card that implements it first, so I don’t even think it’s needs to be made into a profit source.

I can cancel any subscription on paypal web site. Banking system should adopt that: list every subscription on bank website and allow one-click cancel.

It's not the Banking system's choice. It's a matter of contract law between the customer and the service. Once the contract law is changed, the Banking system can implement the feature.

This problem doesn't require a technological solution. A legal solution is perfectly adequate. In Sweden, for example, you can inform a company of your wish to cancel a service by email or letter or phone call or...probably there are more options I'm unaware of. Given such a right, you never need to play the games that companies want you to play.

I've never had issues requesting a chargeback if a service auto-charged me that I didn't desire to use or be charged for.

I've done this to the NHL, Comcast, Sirius, Uber, etc. Considering some places don't even offer a way to contact support (Uber), chargebacks are the only way to handle this sometimes.

I have lost every single chargeback against Sirius - calls are recorded and even amex sides against the consumer.

I’d love to hear your strategy.

I want the world to allow this!

> "But I already do it" (paraphrasing)

Not legally. If you hit "Agree" on a contract that says you will pay until cancel and then you stop paying without canceling, you're still legally on the hook for the payment. Technically. Most companies won't actually send you to collections. But they can, and sometimes they do, which is why credit card companies can't make GUIs to bring your subscriptions front and center with nice user friendly "cancel" buttons. Sometimes they still try to do this, but behind the scenes someone has to cancel on your behalf so it isn't reliable.

Upgrading your strategy from "technically illegal" to "legal and normal" is how we bring it to the masses :)

> Companies are stealing money and getting away with it.

Are they? I think that those companies misunderstand how easy it is to lose trust and how difficult it is to gain it. Humans are extremely good at remembering who can be trusted.

I think the easiest way would be to make it legal for consumers to block subscription payments, nothing - and demand companies just deal with it. That it means nothing more than that the subscription ends. Nothing more, nothing less.

I've started the process of closing my account last week. I need to download my order history for tax reasons but then I'm clicking on that confirmation email.

I'm not a Prime member and it feels like I'm being tricked into becoming one whenever I've placed an order. I'll probably suffer with higher prices or slower delivery for some things but I can only tolerate these sorts of things for so long.

On the other hand, cancelling once you are billed makes the entire charge reversed. So there is that...The even worse outcome I've experienced (from other businesses) is cancellation would only take effect on your next billing cycle. That does not seem to be the case. Source: personal experience

> I used to think so highly of Amazon.

Amazon never changed. You did.

Yeah the text is confusing too when you have the free trial, it makes it sound like your benefits stop immediately, making you want to wait till the last minute to cancel, when you can cancel straight away and keep for thirty days.

As a non prime member they make it hard to buy things too, with extra screens trying to offer you another trial for a week for 99p and always defaulting to offering that and paid delivery.

For me, Prime is way too expensive, i don't want there crappy video streaming service.

I wish they had prime delivery without the video for the old price. I really don't care about that.

Don't worry a competitor will quickly swoop into the market and offer such an alternative, forcing Amazon to decouple these services, improve their video streaming or reduce bundled costs. They are in no way in a monoplistic type situation with such high barriers to entry that competition doesnt regulate them. /sarcasm

Reading that resulted in a rollercoaster of emotions. Yeah, government action will be needed for above to happen, but Bezos already seems to have bought them off...

Walmart will deliver to your door today, for free, or send things two day shipping. No video service that I'm aware of, cost is 98/yr.

Target, Home Depot, and Costco are currently upping their delivery game as well.

Amazon is huge, no doubting that, but has nothing close to a monopoly for online shopping. Competitors have really amped up in the last year or two.

I kind of wish the inverse - they have some really good shows on Prime video, but I don't buy much anymore on Amazon (local stores have really stepped up the same-day delivery game).

Odd. Since you get free delivery on Amazon for all orders over $25 without Prime, the delivery is the less interesting part of the bundle for me.

This is why I don't have it anymore, now I just wait longer until i have the 29€ (Germany) total.

But sometimes I want to order something for less and I just put it in the cart or get it elsewhere.

I think I agree that Prime by itself is not worth it. But if you get the credit card, the extra cash back on $4,500 worth of purchases on Amazon makes it pay for itself. This is being extremely generous by pretending you can get 2% with another card. Personally, even comparing with local stores and buying the cheaper option, it pays for itself. Then there is cyber Monday where I basically get all the Christmas gifts which add up real quick. Plus, I really like not having to minimum spend to get free delivery.

I doubt many people can buy 400$/month of stuff from Amazon without regularly getting screwed over by fake or expired products.

I easily buy that much on Amazon on average. I spend $100/mo on Amazon just on sugar free Red Bull.

Yes, I may have a problem.

"May?"

that's not Red Bull that you're drinking..!

If Whole Foods counts (no idea what the specifics of the card are), it's not too hard at all. It's very easy to spend over a hundred a week there if you're feeding more than one person.

Worth checking out, but it’s possible to get much higher rewards on a single category like groceries.

“6% Cash Back at U.S. supermarkets on up to $6,000 per year in purchases (then 1%). ” Blue Cash Preferred® Card from American Express which Whole Foods accepts.

That card has a $100 annual fee -- Prime is not much more per year.

"(superstores, convenience stores, warehouse clubs, and meal-kit delivery services are not considered supermarkets)"

Which is to say most Walmart stores, or a more liberal interpretation "plebs need not apply". Though I found out it does work with the pick-up option, but I absolutely loathe not being able to look at what I'm buying.

The credit card comparison space is incredibly lucrative-- that is why Bankrate/Red Ventures bought ThePointsGuy. But it isn't really that objective anymore when it comes to comparisons, since if you're an affiliate for a bank, they heavily dictate how you can include their products on your site. There needs to be a simple tool for users to plug in their spending and easily see the best options based on sign up bonuses, rewards, annual fees and rates. The problem is that by being overly objective, you end up alienating the banks who are paying the referral fees.

> This is being extremely generous by pretending you can get 2% with another card.

At Amazon? No. But with two cards I get:

Grocery: 3%

Gas: 2%

Restaurants: 3-4.5% [0]

Travel: 3-4.5%

And I'm not even trying all that hard... There's entire groups dedicated to min-maxing this stuff that can probably blow the above right out of the water.

[0] Depends on how I redeem the points.

Yea, I would put myself in that group. Most of this obviously comes down to personal spending habits. The only category that is really applicable to Amazon is the grocery category. For the purposes of the Amazon website, I would counter that the subscribe and save is often much cheaper than the store. I'm a little surprised that my original comment got downvoted that Prime + credit card makes sense if you spend $4.5k on Amazon. I don't eat meat and so my protein purchases alone through Amazon equal $500/year. People on HN I guess think that spending $4,500 per year on food and other essentials is unreasonable.

Ah, I see. I misinterpreted your comment. You meant the 2% base vs the 5% with Prime. And were making a conservative calculation based on the 3% difference, even though it's not likely you could get 2% back with a different card.

$139 / .03 = $4,633

I mean, this is exactly the type of math you should do to evaluate options like this. No controversy here. If you're spending more than that anyway, it makes sense to get the Prime card. Anything you spend beyond that amount is earning you more than the non-Prime card, and that's even just flat out valuing Prime at $0 and treating it as a fee.

It doesn’t make it “sound like”, at least in Canada.

I sometimes get the trial to ship something to my parents. It literally tells you that your trial will immediately end…. Only for it to not.

It’s like they considered it at one point then decided not to but forgot to remove the wording.

> I sometimes get the trial to ship something to my parents.

So you're abusing a trial to get something for free that actually costs the company money.

But then you complain that the company tries hard to keep you from cancelling the trial? How does that make any sense?

You are well within your ethical rights to take advantage of a trial offer. And the company is well within their ethical rights to try to convince you to stay. Three clicks online to cancel is hardly a burden.

If they offer me a trial, I am going to take it. If I'm not going to use said trial, I will cancel it.

It is not "abuse" to use the offer as stated. If they keep offering it, then that's on them.

And regardless of my use, they are not "well within their ethical rights" to outright lie to their customers in an attempt to convince them to stay.

"Are you sure you want to cancel?" [YES] [NO]

"Wouldn't you rather enjoy the many benefits Prime offers you?" [YES] [NO]

"Are you sure you won't miss those benefits?" [YES] [NO]

"Special offer: 3 Months for 75% Off!" [CONTINUE] [cancel anyway]

[Cancel Screen]

Are you sure you wish to leave Prime? You may be consigning your soul to eternal perdition!

[Return to Bezos the Blessed] [No, I wish to spend hereafter in the lake of fire]

You are eligible for Pascal's Discount!

[Lake of Fire Screen]

We understand, maybe you aren't spiritual. That's okay! We value your business regardless. But you should consider that Jeff Bezos is a powerful billionaire that may one day bring about the Singularity and become Roko's Basilisk. We're not fucking around here, and we're upping the stakes: Some gods may be merciful, but Roko Bezos is not one of them

[Spend no money outside the Amazon ecosystem ever again] [Consign an endless number of sentient emulated versions of yourself to an emulated lake of fire]

"If we asked your twin, who always lies, what you would say if we asked if you really wanted to cancel your subscription, what would he say?"

"Do you often sing or whistle just for fun?"

Not sure if you're making fun of scientology or referencing FNM. Both are good things to do.

I feel sometimes that Prime is against you.

Prime helps customers as a means of helping Amazon. They reap the biggest reward, not us.

That's a line from the same Faith No More song "Land of Sunshine" :)

I'm reminded of the dialogue box presented by the Analytical Engine in the awesome graphic novel, "The Thrilling Adventures of Lovelace and Babbage" by Sydney Padua:

*Annulation Lever Activated - do you wish to continue? Engage STOP lever to continue. Engage CONTINUE lever to stop."

I was actually referencing a sequence of dialogs in the classic video game Scarab of Ra:

• "Do you really want a hint?"

• "You really should try to solve this on your own. Still want a hint?"

• "Wouldn't it be more fun to figure it out by yourself?"

• "Last chance to be a hero. Still want that hint?"

(The game is playable online at: https://archive.org/details/ScarabOfRaMacintosh, or using https://mace.software/scarab-of-ra/ on modern MacOS -- you can trigger these dialogs by picking any item from the "Hints" menu.)

They do the same sort of thing on Audible, where I'm an on-again/off-again subscriber. In one of my temporary departures I went through those options too fast and only realized I hadn't actually cancelled when I received the following month's CC charge.

The worst part is that the answers to the second two questions are sort of irrelevant, yeah, I'd rather enjoy those many benefits, but yes I'm still sure I want to cancel. Yes I'll miss the benefits, but I'm still sure I want to cancel.

In light of all of these dark patterns, I have gone a different route.

I use burner virtual cards, through privacy.com. This way, I can terminate my card instead of having to deal with the nonsense that cancellation has become.

This might have some repercussions, such as account terminations, however, I only use this method on websites that I have disposable accounts with. It is well worth my time to keep using virtual cards for as long as these dark patterns exist.

The problem is that the fine print on Amazon Prime says they'll use any card you have on file to continue it if the one you initially selected doesn't work.

I canceled around December and it was shockingly easy. Just a few clicks and it was done. It even gave me a prorated refund for nearly the full amount of the cost of renewal (I forgot to turn off autorenew and it had been a couple weeks after the renewal). It was actually the easiest cancellation experience I've ever had.

I kind of wonder if they have an algorithm to check your purchase history and if you've given Amazon enough profit over the years (which I certainly have with over 23 years of purchases and at least 15 years of prime) then it just makes the cancellation a piece of cake.

Maybe different countries have different laws or regulations on this sort of thing? I don't know.

I think people just have a different definition of hard. I cancelled my Prime membership several times in the past (not using it too much, changing countries etc) and it’s definitely not a single button - the process is clearly done to have some attrition and make you reconsider cancelling it. But you just have to click your way past 2-3 screens worth of reminders of how amazing your subscription is and after that you’re done. Personally I would not call it hard (hard for me would be one of those services where I have to ring support to cancel!) but it could be easier.

I was definitely amazed by the refund part, that was nice and something I didn’t expect. Iirc the refund is also based on your actual usage of prime features, not just how much longer your subscription is going to last, which is extremely consumer-friendly.

Yeah, I cancelled a month ago, I was impressed, I think if my parents had tried to cancel they'd have found it nearly impossible.

I also cancelled a month ago. It doesn't stop there though. I've ordered stuff from Amazon since then and every order still prompts me to use Prime or select it for the fastest shipping. Interestingly I'm still getting my packages on average of 2 days without Prime. The only downside is having to spend the $25 minimum for the free shipping, but I tend to buy things that exceed that price anyway.

> Interestingly I'm still getting my packages on average of 2 days without Prime.

Yeah, the way they make Prime work and affordable for them is to locate warehouses everywhere, close to recipients. People have been observing 2-day non-Prime delivery times for years now. They'll also usually offer you a month-long free Prime trial once a year and you can do a batch of holiday shopping or whatever.

I spend enough on Amazon that it's still worth the extra percentage cash back on the Amazon card, but I'm not sure how much longer if these price increases keep up.

You have to be spending 7,000 a year to break even on prime, because the Chase Amazon card gives 3% cash back if you don't have Prime.

Looks like I came very close in 2021. Difference is worth it for small order delivery and the occasional use of Prime Video then.

Likewise, cancelled in Feb because I'd like to buy from smaller merchants directly when possible. I can buy toilet paper from Amazon still and get free shipping, so... no loss, really? Amazon was already nagging me to bundle separate shipments together on "prime days", so it literally makes no difference to me.

The dark patterns on cancelling my subscription were so disgustingly manipulative that it made it really easy to be happy with my decision to leave, though. I admit to feeling a tinge of regret when I quit a service that politely allows me to cancel because that actually gives me some respect for the service. With Amazon, Spotify, Facebook, and Instagram, they try SO hard to make it impossible to leave that it cemented the decision completely in my mind and eroded the last bit of respect I had for those platforms.

I cancelled a couple of months ago (was on a Student membership and wouldn't let me extend). Things still take only 1 or 2 days to ship, but they hold off on shipping it for about 3 or 4 days.

> Things still take only 1 or 2 days to ship, but they hold off on shipping it for about 3 or 4 days.

I've had prime for quite a while, and I still get this for some items... But they're usually upfront about it and say the expected delivery is in X days before I complete the order.

How long did you have Prime? I ask because I never had Prime and at some point they added they added the prompts as an upsell.

I know someone who recently left one of Amazon's services {Video, Games, Music, etc.} and they basically had a free membership for dogfooding. When they left Amazon, the free membership was automatically set to renew on the monthly date for the full price of $20 or whatever it was.

i.e. they'd been charged 0.00/mo on X date every month while working for that org and then they checked after quitting and noticed it was set to auto-renew on the next date for the full price.

They didn't get any kind of notification about it beforehand. Canceling that was apparently the same kind of affair as this.

I guess part of it comes down to their ex-org's bug surrounding how a dogfooding prod subscription is granted/revoked but in the end they were treated just like a real customer.

This is where RBI's (central bank of India) e-mandate regulations are very useful, Now Amazon has to route the subscription (recurring-payments) to the issuer (bank) with explicit permission from the subscriber which are authenticated using MFA, Deductions for subscription are informed 24 hours prior by bank SMS with a cancellation link for the e-mandate. For amount > INR 5000 MFA is required for every subscription transaction.

So if I want to cancel the payment to Amazon Prime subscription, All I have to do is click the link from the bank's SMS. The only drawback for now is that not all international services adhere to this e-mandate regulations and so automatic subscription payments is impossible for such services (One time payment would still work).

I just cancelled Audible (an Amazon property) and the process was similarly confusing. In fact, it seemed to not even allow me to cancel unless I used my credits first. So I had to go purchase a book with my final credits and then come back to the cancellation page. Then after clicking through some non-obvious buttons to cancel, it gave me one last button that I almost clicked because they made it seem like it was a confirmation button. But it was actually a button meant to undo my cancellation. Very dark pattern.

This is the sort of thing which results in chargebacks, after an end user is positive they canceled.

Even for Amazon, too many of these can cause issues.

A bonus is that they use language which leads you to believe your services will immediately end, even if you’ve purchased a year-long subscription and have months left.

It wasn’t until the second or third panel where I found a statement (in the smallest text size possible) that told me services would stay active until previously-billed time ran out.

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