I never went to any protest, not just this but in general, but I was very pleased that there were huge protests in the UK and elsewhere at that time, because I had enough of restricting my own life for the sake of others.
Also, not everyone is selfish, you're projecting the way you see the world onto other people.
Why did the DANMASK RCT fail so spectacularly?
> Also, not everyone is selfish, you're projecting the way you see the world onto other people.
Uncalled for. You might consider that to impose your views on others could easily be considered far more selfish than someone unwilling to participate in an activity, even one with such unimpeachable, proven benefits.
Because it had too few participants, or happened when the overall infection rate in society was too low. The number of infected in both groups were too small to conclude anything confidently.
If I remember correctly the group without masks were infected about 20% more than the group with masks, but since the absolute numbers were too low is could have been due to random chance.
From the study[1]:
> A total of 3030 participants were randomly assigned to the recommendation to wear masks, and 2994 were assigned to control; 4862 completed the study.
That's more than enough people.
> or happened when the overall infection rate in society was too low
The study was conducted in April and May of 2020, there were clearly enough infectious people in the population[2] to warrant the study showing some importance.
> The number of infected in both groups were too small to conclude anything confidently.
From the study:
> Infection with SARS-CoV-2 occurred in 42 participants recommended masks (1.8%) and 53 control participants (2.1%)
> Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection.
Don't you think it's strange that proven benefits are so hard to substantiate in a randomised controlled trial? These proven benefits can't be proven or shown to be beneficial across thousands of people, during a pandemic?
That's not going to fly with me, especially since every other RCT done on masks prior to the pandemic failed to show efficacy against influenza, even in clinical environments.
Maybe we could rerun the study now, while the highly infectious Omicron variant is running rampant, which apparently masks and vaccines are rubbish at preventing.
It's almost as if the proven benefits aren't proven and hence, not benefits.
Forgive the sarcasm but if people want to make bold claims then I suggest I may be able to poke holes in their case by mocking it, as I would with people knocking on my door claiming the apocalypse is nigh, or those telling me to change my behaviour because of whatever other pie in the sky belief they hold. When they come back with the RCT that shows the efficacy of masks - something, I might add, that should be possible in a pandemic - then there'll be something to discuss. Otherwise, the criticisms of the study, which weren't given before it was published I might add, are all quibbles.
[1] https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817]
[2] https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...
When making bold claims, the claimant should provide evidence for those claims. Supply me with the RCT that proves the benefit of wearing masks.
Do you have it?
The issue for me, and I'm reading it in a lot of these comments is that there is no endgame. The times I've been asked "where is your mask?" I've never had an empirical answer to "when does it stop?"
I get your point. And the UK didn't lockdown. But this statement is a stretch.
Did you not consider the possibility that the government bowed to pressure, such as the protests, and didn't lockdown?
Also, these protests werent just against lockdown. There were enormous protests against vaccine passports, and they were successful - the govt had vaxpasses ready to go in the summer and pushed them back repeatedly before cancelling them in the face of public pressure and tireless campaigning from civil liberties groups like Big Brother Watch. If it hadn't been for the protests then you wouldnt have been able to go to Sainsbury's in the last six months without scanning your QR code.
Finally, there were also protests against vaccine mandates, and in particular the vaccine mandate for NHS staff. Personally I found those protests silly - I would have thought that NHS workers of all people would understand the importance of getting vaccinated, but the facts are that the government initially announced that NHS workers would be fired if they didn't get the jab then walked this back when it became clear that enforcing this rule would mean firing tens of thousands of intransigent NHS staff and they couldn't afford the shortages. There was a gigantic protest in London in January against the NHS vax mandate (not that you'd have heard about it on the news) - a protest which unequivocally achieved its goal.
If you don't think people were protesting against anything real or that the protests didn't achieve anything then you haven't been paying attention.
It was, therefore a class / social / demographic issue, but there is indeed crossover with the foreign healthcare worker but its on that class rather than where they come from.
I think (but I didnt discuss it with the expert) that the doctors themselves were on the whole opposed to compulsory mandates for ethical reasons. E.g. first do no harm extends to respecting a persons conscience.
It's easy for me, as an affluent middle-class white guy, to say "shut up and do what you're told because the experts know best" - but on some level I really can't blame people from less advantaged demographics for being so distrustful of the "experts". After all, it's not like the governments and corporations pushing these vaccines have always worked in the working class's favour in the past.
To be clear, I believe that the vaccines are safe and effective and that everyone should get jabbed. But I can't help but feel like all this demonisation of the unvaccinated is driven at least partly by good old fashioned snobbery and class hatred. "How dare these lower class inferiors not do as we say? Why can't they be smart and sensible like us, the wealthy enlightened?"
> I can't support the mandating of vaccines in this scenario
He goes on:
> If you want to mandate people to have vaccines you have a moral duty to provide evidence that it's necessary, and now the evidence isn't just lacking that it's necessary, but the evidence that is now coming out is demonstrating that it doesn't help reduce transmission from healthcare workers.
Intensive care consultant Milena Chee[2]:
> What I’m against is the vaccination status to be tied to employment rights. I’m against the language of hatred, which is rampant. We are supposed to be such a tolerant society, but all of a sudden have become the complete opposite.
Professor of oncology at St George's and infectious diseases expert (notably, HIV, which has similarities to COVID-19), Angus Dalgleish:
> I think it is absolute madness to have a mandate for everyone to be vaccinated at this stage… The people who are not vaccinated have all given very good reasons.
> Just do an antibody and a T-cell test. If you did that in large numbers it would be cheaper than giving everybody a booster
He goes into more detail[3] which you may enjoy if you're interested in the immune system.
Dr Tony Hinton, retired consultant surgeon on the mandate[4]:
> It makes no logical or scientific sense whatsoever
> Many of the people I speak to have had their 2 jabs but do not want to take a booster.
From NHS100k's open letter to the government[5]:
> We as a collection of professionals pride ourselves on our ability to critically analyse fact based, evidence-based, and science-based information to apply in our practice.
> 1. Emerging scientific evidence that is contrary to the narrative of mandatory vaccinations:
> We point to the work of Dr. Gunter Kampf of the University of Greifswald published in The Lancet Regional Health Europe on 19 November 2021. In this published article Dr. Kampf pointed out: ‘It appears to be grossly negligent to ignore the vaccinated population as a possible and relevant source of transmission’.
> Weekly reports from the UK Health Security Agency3 consistently show that among adults, the number of cases of Covid 19 in vaccinated population greatly outnumbers that of the unvaccinated population since the rollout of the vaccine programme. We point to the work of Singanayagam et al published on 29 October 2021 in The Lancet Infectious Diseases which showed that people with breakthrough infections have the same viral load regardless of vaccination status. It further adds that regardless of vaccination status the rate of spread from an infected person is the same among household contacts.
> This is not an exhaustive list however we are highlighting these articles as examples to cast reasonable doubt on the assertions made by the Secretary of State, Sajid Javid. Mr Javid declared that our ‘Duty of Care’ towards our patients could only be discharged through the act of inoculating our bodies with a product, that there is now growing evidence of it being inadequate in preventing the transmission of this virus.
The letter is actually damning of the kind of narrative the mainstream media, along with the government, has fed the public. The letter to Chris Witty is similarly damning[6].
Lilith, a paramedic and founder of NHS100k[7]:
> What we're concerned about is the precedent it will set. If you can mandate these vaccines for the NHS, when will it start occurring to the public. When does our health become our choice or when does it become the government's choice? We're very much ralliers for the right to choose. It's such a core issue for healthcare professionals where we must respect patients' decisions
Mr Ahmad Malik, consultant orthopaedic surgeon[7]:
> On one hand we've got mandates and on the other hand we've got freedom, personal freedom, bodily autonomy, informed consent. If you think you can have both, you're gravely mistaken, because they're the exact opposite.
> [Consent] is the cornerstone of medical ethics. Having the ability to choose what's done to your body or what's not done to your body is something we've taken for granted for centuries.
> If we have this mandatary vaccination coming through, that's earthshattering, that demolishes that whole concept of personal bodily autonomy and we're opening a Pandora's box.
They underline your last paragraph, but I think your employment expert needs to familiarise himself with the actual people opposing this instead of making hasty generalisations that act as easy dismissals of a view that may by sincerely held by well educated people.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRApq2IRqn4
[2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/nhs-medics-p...
[3] https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1367946743636118
[4] https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=274024381492297
[5] https://nhs100k.com/Resources/Static/NHS100k%20CEO%20Letter....
[6] https://nhs100k.com/Resources/Static/Letter%20to%20Chris%20W...