This shows that you don't own a Tesla, it owns you. What was Musk saying again about the freezing of the bank accounts of the Canadian truckers?
He, as many Tesla employees do, got FSD for free from Tesla. He still owns the free FSD after being fired, which as it being an employee perk already seems strange to me.
FSD beta is a closed beta only for people in the top ~1% safety scores and can be revoked for any reason (as has been done for reckless drivers). I assume another Tesla tester perk (he was employed as an FSD tester after all) is getting into the beta program regardless of your safety score. Revoking that employee-privilege after firing is not taking something he owns.
AFAIK Tesla has never taken unlocked addons such as FSD away from cars that were paid for.
There was a highly publicized case where they got this wrong. Tesla sold the car at auction to a dealer with FSD still active, then disabled it later after the sale. They reversed this and as far as I know it is not the norm.
https://www.bloombergquint.com/technology/tesla-enlists-empl...
>Any worker who buys a Tesla and agrees to share 300 to 400 hours of driving feedback with the company’s Autopilot team by the end of next year won’t have to pay for full self-driving -- an $8,000 saving -- or for a premium interior, which normally costs $5,000, Musk wrote.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alistaircharlton/2020/07/02/bmw...
https://9to5mac.com/2019/12/04/bmw-will-no-longer-require-a-...
And I think there's a few others.
Merc: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/41678/full-rear-wheel-steering...
but yeah, almost all carmakers make remote functionality a subscription. Usually with first 3-4y free of charge.
It’s just classic HN FUD that pollutes literally any thread about anything car related. It’s tiring.
Needless to say, we haven't replaced this modem yet, and I am now wanting more than ever to replace that car with another Tesla.
It should be criminal when the product has safety inplocation
I think you meant "implication". And no there is no "safety implications" in this case. This is just someone violating their NDA while also badmouthing their employer and being fired for it.
> Yes, personal retaliation against criticism is about as 'proper' behaviour as is pissing in public
There is zero evidence of any "personal retaliation" here.
https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot
imo the distinction is deliberately obtuse, people pay 10k thinking they're getting FSD, and you do get auto lane change and smart summon, but stop signs and navigating autopilot are behind the safety-scored limited rollout.
It’s clear that many or most people are paying that money thinking they’re going to get the Beta features.
FSD - Tesla’s auto-drive that is anything but “Full” and essentially a live beta, and a $10k option.
FSD Beta - Tesla’s latest FSD software that’s somewhere between alpha and beta status. Free for those who qualify, request access, and have paid for FSD.
* I assume so, based on the first paragraph of the article: "showing how the company’s Full Self Driving Beta system worked in different locations around Silicon Valley"
You say "badmouthed", I say "exposed". Clearly this person was a Tesla fan, he was merely demonstrating (perhaps inadvertently) the inadequacies of a system for which there's am ongoing misleading narrative.
If so, link please.
https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/docs/gm-heritage-archive/hi...
Note: Renault's future is a bit dubious, because they had to break up with Nissan, and the merger with FCA failed, so they're mostly going at it alone, and they're IMHO too small for that. However, they already have a few EV models, including the most popular EV in Europe for a few years ( Zoe), so maybe they're not that badly placed, and in any case the French government is unlikely to let them fail.
Not sure where the data came from in the top comment, but also Renault didn't have any talks with Stellantis AFAIK, and not sure such merger would be approved atm.
"In early 2019, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) sought a merger with French automaker Renault, and reached a provisional agreement with the company. However, the behaviour of the French government during negotiations led to the abandonment of the deal; The Economist reported that "for FCA this portended future interference." Nissan also had various concerns of the impact of the proposal on its alliance with Renault."
Tesla never offered the rental option for their batteries b/c they trusted their quality and reliability (Renault's batteries were and are quite subpar).
Like how people who don't want a SmartTV buy a computer-monitor and tuner instead.
Some have announced potential features like paying for remote start, but they’ve all walked it back due to negative feedback afaik
As far as I know, there's no feature that they will remotely disable, though since the car can connect to the internet for various things (sometimes using your phone, sometimes with its own modem, depending on trim) it could in theory happen.
However, a lot of the servicing needs VIDA, which is an always-online subscription thing that communicates live with the mothership, and DICE, some proprietary hardware dongle, so it's not easy to do much to it other than the most cursory maintenance if it needs the computer.
Also the service manuals are for a car since 2014, they're in VIDA too and need a subscription (before that there's a hacked version you can use, but it's still a pain).
In certain situations (eg: the California Fiat 500e leases, where you paid nearly nothing due to tax credits over 3 years) the math can work, but outside of financial engineering from beneficial state and federal tax incentives the upfront cost of the car or the monthly payments plus the increased insurance cost (due to needing to carry full replacement coverage) means the lifetime cost of ownership doesnt pencil out.
Such bullshit.
Good luck with that one buddy. Cars ain't that cheap, significant repairs are often cheaper than the cost of a new vehicle.
I wish I was joking...
Disposable anything is the blight of the modern age, here in Sweden I see a small movement towards buying 2nd hand for most things and... It just makes sense for a lot of items: kitchen appliances, sewing machines, power tools, home theater speakers, etc.
Reduce, reuse, recycle. Why have we forgotten the first 2 Rs? I learned this in school during the 90s, it's been 30 years and people still have a "disposable mindset". It's terrifying...
The cost-of-entry should be high, but with a high production rate, aggressive recycling and a consistent user experience, the cost-to-stay should be minimal. Car terminally breaks? Replace it with another one, and recycle the original to make a new one for someone else.
Minimal (ideally zero) waste, minimal impact on the environment, easier for all parties (customer is waiting at-most a few days for a new car; manufacturer spends time servicing lower-impact issues that could be addressed remotely at customer's homes; insurance payouts are less complicated since the resolution matrix is smaller), and significantly safer (new car that's known-good vs a repaired car with unpredictable failure modes due to alteration)
Plastics, leather, cloth, rubber printed circuit boards and such require significant labor to separate from eachother, and even if that labor is already done the cost to recycle it is higher than using virgin materials, and the result is lower quality.
The last car that I had to sell because I could not afford fixing had a $5,000 repair quote. Not because of the ice engine. Not because of the gasoline.
Because the wire harness was corroded.
Stop dreaming that electric cars do not need maintenance. Maybe not as regular maintenance as ice cars, but definitely they will be eoled in the same lifespan as ice cars.
Replacing, and diagnosing, a modern cars harness for 5k is actually quite reasonable if not even cheap. Especially since the harness rebuild means basically disassembling the majority of the car simply to get access.
But wear and tear impacts all cars operated in the real world, not just gasoline cars. An EV is not magical, just another type of vehicle. Its most frequent failure modes are still being discovered as we put more miles on it and gain experience.
Source: work in the automotive manufacturing industry.
If yes, what's the cost of recycling said unit and raw material recovery ratio when compared to changing the said part and continue using it?
Using items for a longer time by maintaining them is better for environment.
Our great HN community here throws rocks at Tesla and FSD Beta any chance they get. Why in the world would Tesla allow someone whom they employ, to generate bad press while they're still heavily developing a tech. Isn't FSD Beta already not enough negatively covered?
As for firing the employee, WTF Tesla?
Welp, you can’t blame others when you yourself is jumping into the burning pot of politics. Tesla just did that by firing the employee in question, and also blurred the line b/w normal business operation and politics by disabling FSD. Now, nothing can stop all the political notes from everywhere. Rather, if you advocate the freedom of speech, you should encourage this.
I think that was a mistake. Taking away the beta privileges would have been sufficient.
> blurred the line b/w normal business operation and politics by disabling FSD
You're way down playing the impact of the kind of mindset that the average joe has about FSD Beta as portrayed in mainstream media. It's so hostile, emotionally charged and void of any evidence of actual danger, that it pushes the bias needle against Tesla to the breaking point. If your blood sweat and tear is being pummeled around the clock, you get into politics in a blink and double down with whatever you can muster.
Those who think Tesla is just in it for the money, well, there is no conversation to be had with them. They'll catch up. But if one actually believes in what Tesla claims to exist for, then it doesn't take a lot of thinking to see they're right in pushing back aggressively as they do.
Wow, you and I have totally different perspectives. I see people rightly calling out the limitations and dangers of a technology whose benefits are greatly exaggerated by sycophants.
It's telling that you say a Tesla employee, car owner and fan is generating "bad press" by showing that the technology isn't what is claimed.
Plus, you can't pick and choose what bad press you choose to accept. This is true anywhere. Tesla's nonexistent PR department may have handled it better.
Most other western countries are alike (or worse). Except, US is where the energy, best capitalism and talent is so despite the above, probably still the best choice.
> I'm glad the FCC, EPA, NHTSA exist, for all their flaws.
Of course you do, as a consumer. It's only until you want to make something that isn't already made for the past few decades that you start disliking, hating and outright wanting them to just get the heck out of your way. Regulation in itself isn't a problem, its ever increasing and rarely ever decreasing amount that is the issue. There are many rules and regulation that haven't been updated for decades.
That's the keyword here. It looks dangerous to some, but evidently, no one's hurt yet, driver or pedestrain. And we're talking 60K people with FSD Beta as of Jan (perhaps getting close to 100K around now). At 100K, and average 1000 miles, over 3-6month period, you have 100 million miles driven without a single injury let alone fatality. US average is 1.1 death per 100 million miles. If you don't look at these numbers and just go with the news, it sounds like Teslas are running over people GTA style.
> Why is it out there to begin with?
Because that turns out to be the only way so far to massively train the AIs to move this tech forward. If you think Waymo or any other self driving companies out there are gonna get anywhere with the amount of data they have, you need to get in the weeds a little and see what's what.
The things is that, looking from the side, it doesn't really seem like Tesla is interested in any feedback, judging by their reactions to what could only be described as healthy discussions. If they're getting a lot of flak, it's because they've earned it.
I guess so, but I think in a different way. Only if they talked more about how much attention they pay to safety of people when they roll out beta to more users and add features, then perhaps the general public would be more understanding. I know about it from obscure tweets and fleeting mentions having watched countless hours of Tesla people talking about FSD, but you really have to dig to hear about it.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action...
b) do people really want to set a precedent of having a private company prevent access to the thing you bought because you disagree with a political position?
During war, not supporting the effort is normally what is considered unacceptable. Private individuals and companies are all expected to do their part.
If the company or a hostile government goes after my phone or internet, I can live without it. My brain?
I can choose to live without internet, and it would suck. I can choose to live without electricity, and it would suck. But I can choose it.
I cannot imagine a future where my brain, my actual living brain, is interfaced with anything that I do not have complete and utter control of. And it might suck, I might miss out on entertainment, medical treatments, or whatever, but you have to draw a line somewhere.
There's being a Luddite and then there's being skeptical of something that can really mess you up. I am convinced being absolutely skeptical and refusing to participate with brain interfaces owned/operated by a third party is not being a Luddite.
This shows that you don't own a Tesla, it owns you
t. a son who goes by train
Incorrect. If you are an FSD customer, you are eligible to sign up and put yourself on the waitlist for FSD Beta, and then you get selected at some point in the future if you are lucky.
Source: been on that waitlist since it had first opened back in September 2021, still waiting to receive FSD Beta.
I only know a couple of people who opted into paying for FSD, but they all regret it.
It's $12k, isn't it?
The entitled attitude that we as a business will take your money but provide nothing if we don't like your face, started with internet companies and is now spreading into the rest of life like cancer.
It doesn't exist, so what is there to take away?
Either option enables Enhanced Autopilot with summon mode, automatic lane changes (configurable), navigation on autopilot (i.e. autopilot on interstates that can handle entrance and exit ramps).
If you've paid upfront, or have a subscription, you can now request access to the FSD Beta by tapping a button on the car's display.
Once agreeing to the conditions, your driving will be monitored and measured based on various characteristics. After each trip, a detailed safety score is shown on the mobile app, with a breakdown for that particular trip and a cumulative score. This includes detailed charts and metrics for each category. The process is transparent and well-documented, along with the math involved [0]. It even includes a simulator to see how changes to your driving would affect the score. It's honestly pretty impressive and highly polished; even the graphs are interactive. Like any metric, it's not flawless, but it serves its purpose.
Only after driving for an extended period while maintaining a safety score of 99 or 100, you'll eventually have an option to activate the FSD Beta.
The driver monitoring is quite sophisticated now. It's made abundantly clear that after 3 violations (or maybe 5 now), FSD Beta access will be revoked. Even picking up your phone with one hand to use it briefly will be detected by the in-cabin camera, and an alert will appear to pay attention.
As someone who participates in the FSD Beta, the barrier to entry is high. And the people testing it are likely to be the safest and most attentive drivers on the road. I keep both hands on the wheel, and I'm ready to take over at any moment.
Based on my anecdotal observations of how people behave on the road, I'd wager 95% of people would struggle with the safety rating :-). You'll find humorous YouTube videos of people being shocked by how low their score is--only after having watched them drive like an NYC cab driver!
Not to mention the built-in safety features make other cars seem primitive by comparison. For example, just recently, there was a cyclist far ahead who was behaving erratically, driving on and off the median, grass, and road. The car identifies a person on a bicycle (shown on the screen), analyzes the trajectory, and presents a series of audible beeps _well_ in advance to alert the driver. That's just one example of many.
The FSD Beta is updated approximately every two weeks, with extremely detailed release notes with lots of machine learning goodness [1]. Examples:
- Upgraded modeling of lane geometry from dense rasters ("bag of points") to an autoregressive decoder that directly predicts and connects "vector space" lanes point by point using a transformer neural network. This enables us to predict crossing lanes, allows computationally cheaper and less error prone post-processing, and paves the way for predicting many other signals and their relationships jointly and end-to-end.
- Improved the precision of VRU detections by 44.9%, dramatically reducing spurious false positive pedestrians and bicycles (especially around tar seams, skid marks, and rain drops). This was accomplished by increasing the data size of the next-gen autolabeler, training network parameters that were previously frozen, and modifying the network loss functions. We find that this decreases the incidence of VRU-related false slowdowns.
- Reduced the predicted velocity error of very close-by motorcycles, scooters, wheelchairs, and pedestrians by 63.6%. To do this, we introduced a new dataset of simulated adversarial high speed VRU interactions. This update improves autopilot control around fast-moving and cutting-in VRUs.
[0] https://www.tesla.com/support/safety-score
[1] https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/721/fsd-beta-10-11-now-goi...
That's right, only the most uncritical and loyal people are allowed to have it. The narrative is essential.
That's when I'll just start riding a low-tech bicycle everywhere.
Says Tesla's software, which can be changed or can be lying.
IIRC, one self-described ex-Telsa firmware guy recounted on some story where he or his team scripted running some SSH commands on a bunch of vehicles to fix some bug they pushed that wouldn't have been able to fix otherwise.
Tesla disabled his ethernet port in the vehicle, automatically downgraded the firmware to another version which didn't have references, and then blocked the car from getting future upgrades.
-User mode updates- may not be automatic - that does nothing to prove that Tesla cannot update a vehicle without interaction.
Tesla owns the entire stack. They choose when to update, it just happens to be easier and more pleasant to give people the choice. Given that you can trigger the update via the mobile app, there is clearly support for remote updates. And if you as an owner can do it, then Tesla certainly can, even if they choose not to.
As long as they can remotely update the software, it's always one update away from that.
So many people believe so much nonsense propaganda about Tesla. It's unbelievable.
Why would you have any reason to believe this? Honestly speaking, believing they couldn't would be buying into propaganda.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-remote-accessi...
This is just one more of those things that people claim because they like media attention regarding Tesla.
Given the plausibility of the circumstances, we’d need an official statement from Tesla to debunk it.
Not confident statements with no backing evidence.
Assuming the request is cryptographically signed or else originates over an encrypted connection, is the certificate in the hands of the car owner, or Tesla?
QED, whether or not cops make shit up, Tesla has the capability to remote command teslas. If they are smart, they will prevent you from sending destinations to autopilot navigation over the same API. But anyway if they can push updates OTA w/o user interaction, it's all moot, I, Robot style
Assuming you care if people find out you did it of course but if literal murder via software hacking doesn't get you in trouble then you could just hire a hitman for less money.
Seriously, does noone see a tiny flaw here?
Criminal behavior implies something minor. Murdering a dissident isn't minor.
That might be enough to dissuade them from whistleblowing. (That and the fact that whistleblowing is nearly always a great way to commit professional suicide in this country.)
No, it shows that beta software is issued under a license. No one "owns" FSD beta. You apply and get granted access. It's not the car, it's not even the car's native software suite. It's a test version of software Tesla is offering on different terms.
(It's also pretty amazing, fwiw.)
Judging from the video's online where FSD beta is massively failing, I fail to see how amazing is not a huge overstatement?