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Comment by BirAdam | Hacker News Reader

So, by your moral standard, the entire Earth should have isolated the US economy when the US government/military was killing Iraqi and Afghani civilians and destroying non-military targets, right? The entire planet should also be isolating Saudi Arabia for its genocidal war in Yemen? These things are done without the consent of the governed, and these things are often done without even the knowledge of the general public. Economic warfare kills people just as much as bullets and bombs. Poverty is associated with higher death rates and economic warfare creates and worsens poverty.

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>So, by your moral standard, the entire Earth should have isolated the US economy when the US government/military was killing Iraqi and Afghani civilians and destroying non-military targets, right? The entire planet should also be isolating Saudi Arabia for its genocidal war in Yemen?

Probably, yes. That never would have happened, but that would indeed be the logical conclusion. And I'm fine with that.

That's good of you to admit, it means you have a moral consistency here. Interestingly, most of the US politicians supported by the MSM (right and left) were all for the Iraq War and its dubious justifications (Yellowcake), republican or democrat. With a few exceptions such as POTUS 45

> With a few exceptions such as POTUS 45

Trump was for the Iraq war at the time. See https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/politics/fact-check-trump-fal...

Just 6 months before the invasion there is a recording of an interview where he said he was for the war.

> "Are you for invading Iraq?" Howard Stern asked him, and Trump answered, "Yeah, I guess so."

> So, by your moral standard, the entire Earth should have isolated the US economy when the US government/military was killing Iraqi and Afghani civilians and destroying non-military targets, right?

It is not hard to convince me that yes, that should have happened. Where does that lead us? Should I feel different now about this particular agression because there were agressions we did not respond appropriately?

The US continues to occupy Iraq against the wishes of the Iraqi legislature. As such, we shouldn’t support replacing a Russian search engine with an American one.

Not OP, but yes to all those sanctions. I was out protesting those wars in the early 2000s (and often in the years after) and called for sanctions that would have hurt me economically. I still believe it should be done and our leaders involved in those wars should be made to answer for warcrimes.

Economic warfare does kill people, but it's kind of foolish to say "just as much" as bullets and bombs. I highly doubt the number of dead Russians from these sanctions is anywhere near the number of dead Ukrainian civilians - will need some serious data to back your claim.

> when the US government/military was killing Iraqi and Afghani civilians and destroying non-military targets

The US should not have invaded Iraq for any reason. I would have supported sanctions against the US for those crimes if any country could afford them.

That said, Saddam Hussein's government is not Zelenskyy's government. They're apples and oranges. Ukraine was a functioning democracy that never antagonized Russia.

The war in Afghanistan is a lot more complicated because it was arguably provoked by 9/11 and they didn't (and don't) really have a functioning central state.

> The entire planet should also be isolating Saudi Arabia for its genocidal war in Yemen?

Yes, absolutely.

> Economic warfare kills people just as much as bullets and bombs.

Speaking only about Russia and Ukraine for the last few weeks: bullshit. Russians aren't having pieces of their loved ones sprayed on them by bombs, watching their cities be destroyed, or leaving their lives behind.

Every death, whether in Russia or out, is the fault of its dictator, Vladimir Putin. He is very popular and probably genuinely won his last few elections. It is perfectly fair to blame the Russian people, even though many are brainwashed.

But even if they were all innocent Putin-haters, this lopsided war (economic on one side, violent on the other) is preferable to an all-out war that would kill far more people.

> Ukraine was a functioning democracy that never antagonized Russia

In no way, shape or form should my following comment be construed as support for Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and just in case let me clearly state I think the invasion is not right and that I think it will be Putin's downfall, and deservedly so.

That said, that Ukraine was a "functioning democracy" and that it never antagonized Russia are very debatable assertions, to say the least.

Yeah, my choice of wording was bad. By "never antagonized Russia" I meant "didn't provoke this conflict." I know the countries have a long history.

Ukraine's democracy wasn't perfect, but elections were successfully rigged at least. It was functional if not necessarily unassailable.

Not the OP, but "yes" on the US, and "yes" on the Saudis. "Yes" for ANY country waging ANY war. But, sadly, that won't ever happen.

As a brown person I keep asking myself this everyday, it doesn't seem fair at all. If you raise the point you're making you'll be drowned out with "don't bring me your whataboutism, lives are being lost as we speak". Brown lives have been lost for quite a while now ...

People are dying in Yemen every single day, and the world doesn't exclude Saudi Arabia from everything. The double standard happens right now even.

Once the war in Ukraine is over, maybe there's an opportunity here to focus a boycott on them ?

But can you bet on what will actually happen though? Because I can. Western democracies are pretty selective on which dictatorships and failing democracies they decide to pay attention to.

I wouldn't count on that.

The war in Yemen started first. Why should we be focused on Ukraine when the war in Yemen isn’t over?

We probably shouldn't, but we already are.

"Yeah I know there's other war stuff happening all over the place, but maybe if they wanted people to care, they should get better at going viral!"

https://youtu.be/6-LRS9A-rW4

Yeah, there are certainly a potential issues there,

but I'm coming at this from the recent feelings of shame from realizing that what I'm feeling now about my friends and family in Ukraine - while I didn't do anything except speaking out against it when (for instance) the war in Libya broke out - so what moral standing do I have now in asking even those Russians that do NOT have friends and family in Ukraine to potentially wreck their own lives to stop this war ?

Hence (I hope) I'll act more about these issues in the future, and hopefully I'm not the only one.

Well I have the balls to admit that yes the public cares less about Arabs in a far away desert then fellow Euros.

But I think you already know that and your righteous indignation isn't going to change that. Life is not fair.

It is unfair. And we should raise this point - while being careful not to make it sound like a defense of Putin.

And brown lives are being lost as we speak in Palestine and Yemen.

Exactly this, on all counts. Killing brown civilians is somehow fine, while killing white civilians is somehow isn't.

Please point me to where the Us made it their policy to terror bomb civilians.

Never policy; just accidentally launching a drone strike against the occasional wedding party.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Aw...

It’s not Russian policy to terror bomb civilians. But as with America’s wars, civilians get killed in large numbers because that’s the nature of high intensity warfare, at least when you’re not trying engage in a surgical coup as Russia comically attempted during the first few days of this war.

Whataboutism. I did not agree with the Iraq war but it doesn't justify the current conflict.

The US political system did also make an eventual course correction on Iraq. Eg. Republicans lost the congress in 2006 mostly as a result of that. George W. Bush was term limited out of office. The next proposed unnecessary invasions will probably be greeted by politicians not wanting to repeat Iraq. That is slow progress but it's more than I expect from Putin, with his wars in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Ukraine again, who knows what is next? Not to mention his disrespect of term limits.

So if there are Russians who don't agree with the war (there are) and if Russia eventually makes a course correction (it will) then they're off the hook, right?

Personally, I would say so, yes.

And I know lots of Russians against this war. I've been to Russia. My kids are half Russian. I am optimistic for future Russian opportunities to "course correct".

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