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On a macbook you're in hobbyist territory unfortunately, with Linux. It doesn't even work on various recent years of macbooks, due to various ways Apple locked things down.

Same goes for MS Surface hardware - you _can_ get it working, but there are more hoops to jump through.

Try it on less locked down and more open hardware and you'll have more reliable results.

On everything but the server, you're a hobbyist with Linux, unfortunately.

It's perfectly fine and hobbyists make *amazing* things; but it remains very niche and tinkerer/hobbyist level.

For everyone else, there's, Windows, Android, iOS, Chromebooks and Mac... I think in that order, even.

> On everything but the server, you're a hobbyist with Linux, unfortunately.

That's far from true. On reasonably non-esoteric desktop hardware it's robust. On most laptops (unless you're using an external 4K screen) it's also perfectly fine.

We're using multiple definitions of "hobbyist". The act of using Linux outside of the server context for a personal machine is hobbyist.

There are hobbyists within the hobby.

> The act of using Linux outside of the server context for a personal machine is hobbyist.

I don't know how you arrive at that, unless you're trolling or haven't gone that deep on Linux. Linux is a far better development environment for many languages and ecosystems than Windows, and Mac (granted of course that you'll have a much better time on Windows with .NET, etc). I've been forced to use both now and again in various jobs over the years and have always gone back to Linux.

Mac is better for non-programming office software, and Windows has better games support.

I've never met a person that thinks Numbers is better than Excel. Word, too. Keynote is popular, of course, for Mac OS X.

I made a poor definition of "personal machine". It did not include development. Developing software at home and for fun is, of course, a relatively niche hobby; but, I will grant you that Linux is a very, very good development environment.

Mac OS X is pretty great for photographers and cinematographers, etc.

At least as of 2020 (https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share...), Windows had 87% market share, Mac OS had about 10.7, and Linux had 1.7. IT looks like it was based around UserAgent checking? Which means it would include software developer's worker machines when they log into random websites, as well.

You're using the words "better experience", etc; but, perhaps the problem here is that we're not using the same definition of "hobbyist". Product quality had nothing to do with hobbyist in my definition. It was more "support expectations".

Excel ships on mac too, you know.

> Developing software at home and for fun is, of course, a relatively niche hobby

My multiple decade tech career is not exactly a hobby. Developing software, perhaps relatively niche among white collar workers.

> perhaps the problem here is that we're not using the same definition of "hobbyist"

I don't know what you're trying to prove, but smaller market share does not equate to hobby status. That's like saying that driving a Volvo is a hobby. Anyway, it's been a discussion but not particularly profitable, so have fun in another thread :)

Excel for macOS is filled with awful bugs and limitations. I'm sorry I don't have a list at the top of my mind. The same goes for Word and PowerPoint.

> On reasonably non-esoteric desktop hardware it's robust. On most laptops (unless you're using an external 4K screen) it's also perfectly fine.

I hate when people trying to defend Linux prepend their "defenses" with "most X", "reasonably Y". Because once the the counterexamples of stuff not working in Linux show up, they just shield on "well, I didn't say all of them", "well, it works for me".

Look, I've been a Linux developer and power user for 20 years, I've compiled Linux Kernels several time, I've tinkered with OSS, ALSA, Pulse, WinModem firmwares, USRobotic modems, SSD/Trim params, Bluetooth, printers, games, graphic cards, countless Linux versions and whatnot.

My current PC is Linux Mint exclusively (I even play on it using steam ), but being realistic, it is NOT the case that Desktop Linux is "robust" on PCs or Laptops. There is always something, there will always going to be an issue that will make you have to tinker with it one way or another always.

You wouldn't buy a computer that doesn't run Windows to try to duct tape Windows to it. I've been buying laptops with Linux supported from the manufacturer for 5 years now and I have fewer of the problems I do on my work Windows machine.

Just to give you an idea of the problems on my P15s running Windows:

* I have to run ThrottleStop to stop the built-in thermal limits from limiting my computer's performance to 500 MHz.

* I have to run TpFanControl so my laptop doesn't sound like it's initiating a jet engine test at my desk (this is with or without ThrottleStop so don't blame it)

* The Xbox app frequently freezes my entire machine (I wanted to try out Xbox Game Pass on a work machine, I know sorry)

* My little nipple trackpoint will sometimes stop working, requiring a full system reboot

* The Task Scheduler often freezes up

* There's a printer driver that errors when updated by Windows Update. It prevents other system updates from being installed. I had to hide the driver, which requires a PowerShell script

On my macOS work machine at my job previous to this one:

* full system freezes when waking while docked to my Samsung ultrawide

On my current Linux laptop, a XPS 13 that shipped with Ubuntu:

* very rarely doesn't wake if it screen blanks without me closing the lid

* I've had audio issues in Zoom a few times

If you want to use Windows, that's fine but maybe just point out that you prefer using Windows and not subject the rest of us to your tirades against why Linux users are suffering under their own illusions. Those illusions are well-shared by our Windows-using counterparts.

I want to apologize for my last comment where I say you shouldn't subject to rest of us to your tirades. That's not in the spirit of HN.

Kindly put, I really think it's important to cultivate a diversity of people using OSes. If someone enjoys macOS or Windows more, more power to them. My only regret would be to see a mono-culture of OSes at work develop.

And there's always something on Windows laptops/PCs too.

I use Debian (current stable and Sid) and Arch Linux on my workstation (12000 series Alder Lake i7), laptop (X1 Carbon Gen 9), desktop pc at my birth home (Ryzen 3000 series + AMD GPU) and desktop pc in my flat (haswell i7 + NVIDIA 1080), and while I'm pretty good with Linux I'm also having a very low tolerance for basic things (audio, wifi, bluetooth noise-cancelling headset for travel, graphics) not working.

All of aforementioned works everywhere, graphics work even fine for the quite new Alder Lake iGPU, and I use Windows quite a bit for testing as customers still use it, it's just bad how much broken stuff there is on Windows that needs magnitudes of more hacks than I had ever to do on Linux, or how (relatively) often a machine just stops booting at all without any HW fault (I've got 0% tolerance for that one).

But apparently the bar is set low for Windows while being very high on Linux. All needs to work out of the box 110% perfectly like everybody's subjective use case expects on Linux.

But the thing is, there _isn't_ always something. Again, this is anecdata, but I am running Pop!_OS on a XPS 13 9370, and exactly zero things have gone wrong. Everything worked out of the box.

Suspend is a battery sucker, but surprise surprise, this also happens on Windows because of s2idle shenanigans.

> There is always something, there will always going to be an issue that will make you have to tinker with it one way or another always.

That's just not true. To give you additional anecdata: my (non technical, fairly old) father was constantly struggling with his Windows install and I was having to help out every few months. I put him on Ubuntu and showed him how to accept patches. It's been rock solid since. This was back in 2010.

How is hibernation working for his computer?

I buy laptops with Linux pre-installed. Works fine without tinkering. And vastly more performance on a given set of hardware than Windows (by observation of my kids that insisted on Windows).

One time Windows 10 wiped the boot loader on my desktop and threw a fit until I formatted the whole disk so it could place itself first unlike the partition I thought I had assigned it.

Then I reinstalled windows 10 on the same computer a couple of years later and the installer couldn't even format my drive to install it, just threw bland "not working" errors until I manually formatted and installed the windows bootloader from a rescue drive.

What's your point?

Kind of like a vendetta. There's plenty of old stories of dumb Windows blowing up multi OS installs etc.

Did you set it to install the bootloader on the external drive? I'm not so sure it's a bug as preference to put the bootloader on sda or whatever the first drive is. You can definitely change it.

I've had MacOS kill a day trying to get gdb working but I could never get it properly working with codesign despite following multiple tutorials to do exactly that. I've also had Windows decide to do things like sliently update my tablet rotation driver to one that actually doesn't work with the hardware. They can all be unnecessary time sucks.

This sounds like a user error. Every Linux installer I've seen will ask which device you want the bootloader files on. Most will even warn of an unbootable install if you don't specify a valid EFI partition if you're installing to GPT disks. Making the EFI partition is also extremely easy. You just need to use a tool like GParted to make a 500MB FAT32 partition at the start of a drive somewhere.

Apple Macs also have notoriously difficult firmware (only made to boot macOS or Windows via Bootcamp with special drivers). You should try something designed to cope with its pure awfulness like the rEFInd bootloader instead of GRUB or whatever systemd uses.