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Comment by jmcphers | Hacker News Reader

I worked at Microsoft around the time of the Windows Vista disaster, and one of the big lessons that came out of that era was solve distractions, not discoverability. Windows and other Microsoft products tried to make features (and products) "discoverable" by pushing them on you with alerts and banners, but the result, when multiplied by dozens of product teams and PMs, was an overall user experience that was noisy and unpleasant.

Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready to learn this lesson the hard way again!

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I have Windows 10 on my laptop and the other day it forced me to decide on if I wanted to update to Windows 11 or not in a "Now or Never" kind of way before even startup occurred... Even after a reboot, the computer was totally prevented from being useable until I answered the question, so I could not even search to see if it was an exploit, or even if the upgrade was successful for other users with the same model laptop as me.

It's very troubling to me how a device (that I paid a lot of money for mind you) would do this without any sort of courtesy, and in such a disrespectful manner. This is the issue with modern software development, even the things we buy can be suddenly changed at the drop of a dime into a subscription service cash cow for big industry and we'll have no choice of escaping it all. Consumer Protection has failed us totally because they too invested deeply into these extortionist big corporations. The ads will only get worse year after year because it's all shareholder driven, and they will likely lobby other software and hardware manufacturers to not support alternate options like Linux. Good luck everyone.

I feel your pain, and am feeling very disconcerted on my own behalf too, having Win 10 and no plans of upgrading until network externalities positively force me to stop using it (at which point I'll probably give Linux on the Desktop another shot instead of upgrading to Win 11).

But I'm finding it hard to believe that there isn't some escape hatch there. I absolutely cannot imagine that MSFT's corporate customers would play ball with something like that, and they still represent a powerful interest group where MSFT's decision-making is concerned. So there's got to be some escape hatch. Is it a Home vs Pro thing?

I dunno if it's a Home or Pro issue, but if things get really bad, people will just begin to venture back to computer stores (Off Torrent Street) in the urban part of town and get a bootleg copy of winblows 2024 as they did in the past, then company sales will drop and they'll need to re-evaluate everything all over again.

It's a vicious cycle.

That is certainly going to be how Russians will be purchasing Windows in the near future.

Please don't bootleg Windows. Even a pirate install counts as an install. Linux is so much better.

If Linux were so much better, more of us would have switched already. The fact that reasonable people continue to use Windows despite bullshit like this is evidence that Linux really isn't so much better[0]. I can't help but think that some vocal portion of the community continually insisting that it is better and blaming its lack of adoption on laziness, or lack of technical understanding, is a significant factor in keeping it from being better than it is.

That said, yeah, at this point Windows is becoming so bad that even I, a vocal Linux Desktop critic, must admit that soon Linux will at least be the less shitty of the two.

[0] at least not for the people who are still using Windows. Obviously some amount of this comes down to how and why any given person uses a desktop computer at all.

Linux is a lot better for developers, mostly because lots of developers use it, in a feedback cycle, but the fact that most of the system is open-source also helps.

It's also good if you just need to do one or two things and they happen to work on Linux. Some people install it on their grandma's internet PC.

Even a majority of Steam games seem to work on Linux now, via Valve's fork of Wine.

> Linux is a lot better for developers

Depends on he kind of developer. Web developer? Probably. Game developer? It's a joke.

> Even a majority of Steam games seem to work on Linux now, via Valve's fork of Wine.

That at least is true, it's getting a lot better. However, VR is still a hell of a lot more problematic on Linux even if you're using Valve's hardware.

Like I said, a lot of it comes down to how and why you use a desktop computer in the first place.

Yep.

I think it's better at technical things for any kind of developer or technical person, generally. (Even at non-technical things in some cases: KDE, as a desktop environment, wipes the floor with Windows's desktop environment, from the taskbar to the file manager.)

But if one developer's "better" includes "playing <AAA game with anticheat>" or "using Photoshop" or "using VR", the betterness is sharply decreased.

I count myself extremely lucky my need/want matrix has happened to align such that I'm much more comfortable on Linux than on Windows, but that alignment is sadly RNG. :p

Jesus Christ am I sick of hearing this "technical people" bullshit like technical people never choose to use Windows over Linux.

Developer !== UNIX person.

I always feel bad for the developers of the better GUI Linux tools. It's not fair for people to compare solid efforts to commercial software with solid funding and huge userbases for feedback. Some of them are their own worst enemy, but most really do seem to try.

No, [Ardour, LMMS, Darktable, ...] aren't going to do as replacements (for the nth time), but it's not at all their fault. I also don't fault them or Linux as a whole for the people who badger about it while ignoring the needs of the person they're pestering, but not everyone is able to make that distinction, and it comes to reflect poorly on the software.

As for ports of the stuff I do use, it seems the fault is in the lack of cohesion. It's not free to assign developers to port to even a reasonably narrow subset of toolkits and libraries to target the most users, and having a lawyer go over the licenses to see about packing it in costs money. And they're not likely to ever recover that cost in sales: the people who want it are already using the Windows or Mac version, and the people they might sell to are already productive and skilled with Linux options.

> No, [Ardour, LMMS, Darktable, ...]

They have been for me. Darktable does not feel like a compromise. The ability to edit skin from RAW made the need for other editors pretty small. I go to Hugin to stitch panoramas but that's about it.

> The fact that reasonable people continue to use Windows despite bullshit like this is evidence that Linux really isn't so much better

If you want actual evidence, you'd need to control for some variables like windows being preinstalled and about the only ads it got was Microsoft advertising "why not Linux" in the past. Right now you need to spend some effort to even give it a go.

Linux is not "better" per-se, it's simply a different set of trade-offs.

For us techies, having to occasionally fall back to the terminal to fix a hiccup is worthwhile not having to deal with Microsoft's recent BS.

For a non-technical user however, Microsoft's BS means they can still accomplish their task, albeit slowly and without privacy, while Linux will leave them completely stranded if something breaks because they have no clue how to fix it.

It doesn't help that the Linux world spreads itself thin on reinventing the same square wheel 10 times (and arguing/fighting about which wheel is best - think systemd vs other inits, desktop environments, etc) completely ignoring (or denying) the fact that the wheel is square.

I have to do it all the the time to fix wlan connection issues, hardly occasionally.

> while Linux will leave them completely stranded if something breaks because they have no clue how to fix it.

Is Windows really much different in this respect?

My partner is not at all interested in tech, and they use Fedora Silverblue (at my suggestion) because it's less intrusive than Windows and it's hard to break. It seems to behave weirdly less often than Windows did.

(The only thing that didn't just work was the printer, but we poked around in the printer settings a bit, and now it works.)

If Windows did just work, they wouldn't have been willing to switch to Silverblue.

>The fact that reasonable people continue to use Windows despite bullshit like this is evidence that Linux really isn't so much better.

The same line of reasoning concludes that McDonalds is better than home cooking.

(People are lazy and easily swayed by cheap psychological tricks)

McDonalds is better then home cooking when you are not at home and in a hurry.

I agree with this. I've stuck with Windows so far, just because of battery life and touch screen support, and a single Visual Basic macro that I'd have to write a replacement for. But I have to admit, those are some pretty slim threads tying me down to Windows. Some computers in my household are already on Linux.

Teams for Ubuntu works well enough.

Most people would still have a hard time switching to Ubuntu, but then again most people (outside of HN audience) have no use for the file manager, or are using work computers that somebody else is maintaining. The people who a) need Windows, and b) need to use something other than the browser, are a tiny minority who are also tech savvy enough to figure out some way to deal with this.

Where I see it as a dark pattern is, someone is trying to figure out how to do something on their Windows computer, and the first thing they see is an ad that looks like a help message, inviting them to install something that they have to pay for and exposes them to even more ads. It's like Clippy but takes your money.

KDE Neon with KDE Plasma is way better than Windows.

I don't know what else to tell you. I am a moron, lazy and get easily frustrated.

I don't work in IT.

Installation is 15 minutes and everything just works perfect. There is no way people can have all these problems with Linux here if I can figure this out. If it was any type of frustration I would just stick with Windows.

I think many people here must just make things up about all these linux problems because it makes no sense to me at all.

I don't even know what a single directory outside of my /home directory is for.

As someone who works in IT, I know first hand how much things break in Windows everyday. If Windows was as perfect as people on the internet claimed, I would be out of a very well paying job.

With Linux, anything that goes wrong is almost certainly of own design.

>Please don't bootleg Windows. Even a pirate install counts as an install. Linux is so much better.

Sorry, not for my needs, it's not. My powershell-gutted w10 pro runs the software i need with remarkably little fuss. I keep trying Linux every few years, but nope, not yet. So, dis-connected from the netm and piracy it will be.

Linux is not "so much better" as you can more or less do ANY thing on both without a problem. I use only cross-platform apps, so the OS choice is not a problem to me: firefox, thunderbird, powershell, vscode, copyq, dbeaver, audacity, pircard, doublecmd, less etc. all work the same everywhere.

After using all OSes, Linux is still lacking vendor support that Windows has, so one needs les time and lower level knowledge then on Linux to setup some things.

What we need is bloat free Windows, only kernel and package manager like Chocolatey/scoop/winget.

Privately I have a Windows powered, now hardware wise obsolete, desktop and two Lenovo laptops (a main one and an old as backup). The main one is running Windows and Ubuntu. The only reasons the laptop is still running Windows are a handful of, mostly older, Steam games and MS Teams for the kids. And I was too lazy to install Linux on the desktop.

If it wasn't for MS Teams, Windows would be gone for a while now. No way I "upgrade" to Win11. Luckily, both laptops run professional Windows liscences, the backup one with only local accounts. So I hope that protects me from much of MS pressure to upgrade.

Being used to local software, with local accounts and without "telemetry", I see the benefit of tue cloud. Less for storage, but Steam is actually a charm for example. Overall so, I think software took head dive when it came to user experience, privacy and performance. The fact that my OS will be serving ads now in the file explorer can only be part of one of Dante's rings of hell...

There is ms teams for ubuntu, it's bigger garbage than ms teams on other OS's though.

Ms teams is available for Linux... When I used it for work it ran fine on debian 10, but used enormous amounts of cpu. Not ideal for a laptop.

Perhaps it's worth trying out?

As a long-time linux user, the MS teams linux client is woefully poor. It has ruined meetings for me by repeatedly losing the microphone. I use Windows more often for Teams meeting, and I'm not saying the Windows client is perfect in this regard either.

Zoom on linux works well for me however.

Perhaps try Jitsi Meet?

Jitsi Meet doesn't connect to Teams meetings

Do you even need the app? The web experience is just fine, and I suspect the "app" is just a web wrapper anyways.

What browsers are supported? I tried in both Firefox and Safari last time with no success.

Chrome works well with teams on Debian based systems

Kind of, because especially for my younger one the app is easy to use. Up to the point she gave me some Teams lessons. For myself I would propably go for the web solution, I developed a true antipathy for MS and Google lately. I never was a Mac / Apple person, so Linux and some open source, de-googled versions of Android are the weapobs of choice.

Employer provided hard- and software is a different story all together.

I came to the conclusion that it's nice to have a google and MS free environment. If Teams is needed, or a Windows only game, I can still boot Windows.

I used Windows 11 Home recently in a VM, and found it absolutely atrocious to use. It was genuinely one of the most disgusting things I have used on a computer in a while. It felt like one of the few times I tried to use an Android phone, and everything was filled with bloat everywhere you looked.

This was a very stark comparison to my experience on my machine that I use Win 11 Pro on, which has none of the advertising fluff, TikTok isn’t pre-installed and pushed onto me when I open the start menu. It just has the things I want, that I added, and use frequently in the start menu. I didn’t use any of those uninstall scripts that tend to gouge into the OS, but it was upgraded from Win10, which had been installed ~3 months earlier.

I have 11 pro and I did the ethernet bypass to avoid linking it to a cloud account but it's been making threatening gestures recently about "finishing setup." Is there a new technique?

If they have not removed it:

1. Settings (Win+I)

2. System

3. Notifications

4. [ ] Suggest ways I can finish setting up my device

very complaint about it is firewalled behind log-ins and many platforms are probably working hard to suppress negative words concerning the upgrade now too... I appreciate your experience summary. Hopefully I can continue running v10 until public sentiment sorts the BS out like I did with Win7.

It's funny how you make a terrible assumption about an OS base while explaining the difference between the different versions of another OS.

Android is a great base, and some OEMs customise it to hell, and add their "bloat". Some is genuinely terrible, some is interesting. There's always Google and Motorola phones ( at the very least) which give stock experience, and popular FOSS versions you can flash yourself if you fancy them more.

Compared to the iOS experience, if you don't like it, you're holding it wrong ( does iOS finally support anything else besides all your apps are plastered on the home screen, with optional folders? As someone who grew up arguing with people who just put everything on their Desktop, i twitch thinking of that).

MS's corporate customers using Exchange365 are getting Office365 pop-up ads. Office 2019 gets Office365 pop-up ads. MS Teams users are getting MS teams upsell pop-up ads. When these advertisements get sent to 9k corporate users, it causes a bunch of trouble tickets.

>MS Teams users are getting MS teams upsell pop-up ads

I have no seen this in my enviroment?

I think this was what we ran into.

https://office365itpros.com/2021/04/01/microsoft-push-ads-te...

Corporate customers don't seem to mind telemetry and alike. The "business" version will likely be paid but ad-free.

I would guess that the ads are for home users not business/corp users.

You have to use the enterprise "long term service branch" (or channel as i think it is now) if you want a sane version of Windows 10.

Most of the annoyances are removed from there, and you can stick with an older version and not be forced to take the "feature" updates, 1809 works well.

The only issue i had is their new Terminal app is not supported, i forget why. Last i read they were working on support, maybe it works now.

A local KMS activator will license it, then you don't worry about adverts in Explorer, for a few years at least...

> The only issue i had is their new Terminal app is not supported, i forget why. Last i read they were working on support, maybe it works now.

It does! It's a bit trickier than just getting it from the MS Store, because that's not a thing in Windows 10 LTSC, but you can install some dependencies and get Terminal from GitHub[1]. I just set it up a couple days ago on an LTSC virtual machine, and it works just fine.

[1] https://nerdschalk.com/how-to-install-windows-terminal-from-...

1809 has been out of support since November 2020 for Home/Pro users (May 2021 for Enterprise/Education).

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-...

As of May 11, 2021, all editions of Windows 10, version 1809 and Windows Server 2019 have reached end of servicing, except LTSC editions.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/stat...

The LTSC versions get 10 years of security updates.

Ah, interesting. I wasn’t aware of that.

I even checked endoflife.date, but it looks like they aren’t aware either!

You should definitely switch to Linux. It works very nicely, but frankly even if it did not it is less infuriating dealing with technical issues that will probably be fixed eventually than tolerating daily disrespect from some corporate overlord who feels entitled to dictate how you use your computer.

It's like quitting social media - mildly inconvenient, vastly better for your mental health.

Windows LTSC is a secret escape hatch of sorts.

But it’s basically impossible to buy for small numbers of computers legally. And when it’s possible, it’s crazy expensive. (no, those licenses on eBay are not legal.)

Also the base Windows is not updated, so you end up with weird issues with games, that expect newer Windows; but sometimes also normal software. And Store is not there, which you might actually miss.

Don't worry if you say `never`, it will still offer it to you later....

It's funny but we know it's true.

You just made me boot into Windows and this is what I saw:

"Microsoft recommentds Windows 11 for your device"

"blablabla it's the best"

"Learn more -- Decline upgrade -- Get it"

Pressing "Decline upgrade" yields a new screen:

"Not sure about Windows 11?"

"blablabla it's the best"

"Skip for now -- Get Windows 11"

And "Skip for now" brings me to my desktop.

I wonder if disabling TPM could be a solution.

Nah, this is Windows we're talking about. Pushing the user into doing a big install only to tell them it failed at the very end, after it has made a mess of the hard drive, is standard procedure.

TBH I'm in the same position right now with a Chromebook. I keep getting prompted for an upgrade, which I accept, it spins for a while, then fails, then spins for another while rolling everything back. At least it does that, rather than leaving me with partly-updated, likely unusable device.

Disabling TPM has worked for me

If you were still using Windows 7, this wouldn't be a problem.

Its le nukes time..windows can exist on, inside the vm-box

This is my stance. Luckily my work has moved more and more off of microsoft over the years. I'm not buying a $2000 laptop to watch ads while I'm looking for a file

Mine just updated overnight without asking, after I rejected the update as much as i could. I was perplexed, wondering if the upgrade is being forced in more lenient countries.

Try https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

> they will likely lobby other software and hardware manufacturers to not support alternate options like Linux.

This is not necessary, only a very niche like 1% of computer users use Linux as their primary OS

In the Vista days they at least tried to do the right thing; it was still an era where computers were tools to serve the user, not to exploit/abuse them, most business models were still "sell a thing people need/want at a profit", and the current state of telemetry & ad-related tracking would've still been considered "spyware" and would've led to massive outrage and maybe even legal consequences.

Nowadays, they don't even try to do "the right thing", or at the very least, the meaning of "the right thing" has been corrupted in many parts of the tech industry. "Growth and engagement" is seen as a completely normal and valid business model and pervasive stalking (that would make spyware from a decade ago super jealous) became socially-accepted.

It used to be a tool which they gave you in exchange for money, now it's a platform which both of you share, and where they start messing around with your stuff whichever way they see fit.

You used to buy a desktop which you would take home and sit in front and do your work.

Now you buy a desktop which you take home and you get the seller sit on the other side of it, looking at your work, asking your questions, taking your papers, rearranging everything according to their newest ideas.

It's absolutely horrible.

This is maybe the dominant pattern of bad software design: Writeups describe a good idea, umbrella terms emerge to refer back to it ("discoverability"), and inexperienced designers/engineers try to implement the idea based only on the one-word description and the common knowledge surrounding it, rather than actually learning about the topic it describes. (Maybe they took a corporate learning course on the topic, created by people with similarly inadequate competence on the topic). It's like a game of telephone taken to the logical extreme. They are attempting to use lessons from others' successes, but the end result is even worse than if the designers/engineers used nothing but their own common sense to architect in an information vacuum.

This particular cause of abysmal, insulting UX is common in new teams with no experience among the staff, but there's just no word for how embarrassing it is that Microsoft suffers from it so often too.

Why do you think they don't know this will be annoying but intend to do it anyway to shift revenue sources?

My personal opinion is:

Microsoft told us they see Windows 11 as the "last" version. From now on Windows is a service that pushes continuous updates. The OEM deals are still generating revenue but the strategy shift means no more selling retail upgrades.

It makes total sense that Microsoft would now prioritize adding new revenue sources. I would expect more "parterships", ads, telemetry/tracking, and so forth. The money is just too juicy and Windows is slowly transitioning to be a cost center instead of revenue center which makes the pressure to find revenue even higher. Plus with PC upgrade cycles getting longer and the overall PC market somewhat leveling off (days of 50% yoy growth are long gone) revenue was going to stagnate no matter what.

Microsoft employs a lot of smart people. They know users don't want any of this. The desire to find new revenue is a higher priority. Anyone not on-board with the "Windows client versions are now a 'marketing channel' and 'partnership opportunity'" will leave or find themselves reorg'd to "align business priorities".

Is writing some new feature going to move the needle after the OEMs fill the system up with spyware/adware? It isn't going to increase PC sales by 20% this year so it isn't going to generate more OEM license sales and zzzzzzz (look the VPs already fell asleep during your presentation).

Is fixing bugs going to get kudos, or just create more support tickets as your bug fix accidentally breaks some old garbage "business critical" software relying on the broken behavior? It sure isn't going to sell more copies of Windows since that isn't something MS does anymore.

But putting ads in Explorer and generating $50m in new revenue? Now that will get you a promotion and bonus!

Didn't they say 10 was the last version, too?

They did.

AFAIK it was a random windows dev that said that, not some official company communication/promise.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/windows-10-the-last-version-of-wi...

> Microsoft's developer evangelist Jerry Nixon made the announcement at the company's Ignite conference in Chicago last week.

That's a bit more than "a random dev".

I'm not sure about you, but "developer evangelist" sounds pretty rank and file to me. Searching his name he's apparently now a "Senior Software Engineer" on linkedin (can't click in, getting a login wall), which supports this.

This person, as an evangelist, spoke at an official event run by the company. That's why I think they're special.

You'd think that something as important as "we won't ever launch more editions of our most popular piece of software ever" would be disseminated more widely and across more channels than one "developer evangelist" interview in a conference? If that's real (ie. some sort of position that senior management actually approved), that is.

I don't doubt he thought he was telling the truth, or that there was a general sense within the organization that windows 10 was going to get continually updated rather than having new editions every 3 years. Windows 10 did adopt this model for 6 years. But painting it as some sort of official promise from the organization seems tenuous.

I think we're agreeing, but yelling past each other

Right, I concede that "developer evangelist [...] at the company's Ignite conference" is slightly more reputable than just "random dev". That said I don't believe it materially changes the argument.

They also always say this is the Windows where upgrades won't require a reboot (since maybe XP?).

Until Apple moved on, then obviously they had to respond, because waging a version number war is better than actually making a decent, usable OS.

Hint: people don't buy Macs because they're at version 11 (or 12 now), they buy it because the experience is much more polished than whatever Microsoft has been puking out in the last decade.

And now 10 is the last version.

> Microsoft told us they see Windows 11 as the "last" version.

Really? It's hard to see how they could say that without getting laughed out of the room, considering they said the same thing about Windows 10.

I don't know why the people hate Vista, but it was my favorite Windows version ever. I like the glowing transparent bars so much in it. It was first, as far as remember. Some KDE window managers also had it but windows's was so much better. I think it is also important, I find it very attractive when the title bars are glowing and transparent.

UAC prompts, driver compatibility issues, and "Windows Vista Capable" branding on a bunch of computers that couldn't actually run Vista properly

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2008/03/the-vista-capable-de...

Yes I remember driver compatibility issues, especially for graphics drivers. It was running it with some sort of undergraded flag and disabling enhanced visual mode, and actually with that flag, the windows vista looked and worked like Windows XP. I think Windows is the best when it comes to backward compatibility in comparison with others. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I love Windows Aero. The "flat" bullshit that came after it is complete garbage.

Metro? I liked the "lots of floating rectangles" aesthetic, and the bright colors.

The mistake was in the strategy: "Let's combine touch interfaces with desktop interfaces. Tablets are the next computing revolution." Oops.

Yes! Even though I prefer "flat" instead skeuomorphism, which imposes real materials (wooden, notebook, etc) in a 2d surface (a display), I think. Glowing-glass looks much more realistic and complete.

In other words: the last generation did not train the new one, and usability is expected to suffer.

Also, there are few to no replacements. Because at some point, the last generation decided Windows was the only real OS. Oops!

To be fair, the new generation has no respect for the old one. Oh, you're a software engineer in your late 30s? Gross.

> In other words: the last generation did not train the new one, and usability is expected to suffer.

Probably is the case, however, a learned lesson sticks better than a taught lesson. Or at least that's my hypothesis as to why our industry ends up operating in a cycle of relearning past lessons.

Well clearly windows is not the only OS, so your thesis seems inaccurate. It's not even the only PC OS, arguably there are 2 serious Desktop OS's, Windows and MacOS. With Linux desktop a very distant 3rd.

On servers there is Linux and Windows Server, with a few minor 3rds (BSD maybe?).

On phones there are 2, 3rd place quit.

In the cloud there are 2 providers in AWS and Azure. With Google a distant 3rd.

Are you spotting a trend? Seems like each platform will support 2 to 3 players, usually with one dominant, one subordinate, and possibly one or two also-rans.

When the platform is new there's lots of variety, but as the sector matures so the 2 winners emerge.

Turns out that OSs are only as good as their developer community, and developers will support 1 or 2 platforms, not more. So 3rd place exists on scraps with few users and fewer developers.

This has nothing to do with what a generation decides - each platform has a winner and a follower, and little else.

To change the OS you have to change the platform, or invent a new one. Or maybe 2nd can overtake first (chrome over firefox/ie) but examples of that are rare.

So don't be blaming a generation, the players are just the players - the game is the game.

hard not to be flippant, but <10% of the market share going to MacOS does not make it a "serious" competitor, especially not in business where it's probably closer to ~5% if even that.

statcounter.com lists MacOS as 15% of global desktop market share [1]. It's a bit more in some markets (25% in NA) and a bit less in others (5% in South America), and anecdotally dominant in some niches (US Startups, EU designers, etc). But I think your point stands that Windows is the overwhelming majority of the market, MacOS a distant second and everyone else barely notable (ChromeOS ranks above Linux).

1: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide

And all of that ~5% are going to be graphic designers, video editors, etc. With the occasional executive who insists on using a mac because it's all they know at home.

it'S serious in terms of usability and support

15% of billions is a lot. While the exact number of desktops is likely unknown, its safe to assume MacOS has several hundred million users. I'd suggest that as serious.

But it merely reflects my point that there tends to be one big player in most markets. Android / ios is also skewed (globally) but ios is very much a player.

You don't have to be number 1 to be in the game, but past number 2 it's very hard to break in. And if number 2 is strong, close to impossible.

I don't think that's really fair. I know enough former Microsoft employees and was one long ago enough to know that they don't really listen to us unless we're the team that designed it.

Removing the start button was a classic example, and there is or was plenty of unrest in the walls of Microsoft around all the data being collected.

I am more than confident there are 10s of thousands of employees that are either resigned in disappointment or actively annoyed at what Microsoft has done here with these ads, just like the Skydrive ads before them.

Disclosure: worked for Microsoft a long time ago. My views, obviously, do not reflect their values.

Have a look at the adobe acrobat interface, I can't believe how complicated it is, and often comes up with prompts, side menus, adverts for other versions, and a tiny space to actually view your file.

I regret that the computing experience in 2022 has to be so atrocious. But it is necessary to understand that general computing has its limit when the user does not want to make the effort to have independence [to educate themselves on the operation of a von Neumann machine].

There is a whole GNU/Linux ecosystem [as well as a few others], mature and reliable. I even feel sorry for the user who, for one reason or another, prefers to be spoon fed by the Windows system. As you can see, there is a price to pay for the convenience of ignorance [hey, everybody uses Windows!].

Or it may be that general computing, the noble goal of bringing computing for the masses, is just an illusion, and cannot be done without gatekeepers like MS.

"I regret that the computing experience in 2022 has to be so atrocious."

The industry builds what the industry wants.

The populous tolerates what the (edit: duopolies) force-feed them.

Precisely. Developers hate users because users are the ones who want them to do things like fix bugs and make software reliable, which isn't as fun as cramming in new features and rewriting things in new languages and frameworks. Even open source software suffers from this, just look at GNOME.

So, I'm building a gaming PC for my kids. One of them started playing fortnite with his friends during covid, to keep in touch. He would like it on the gaming PC. Fortnite does not run on Linux. What do you suggest? If it helps, I have been personally running linux since 2002 or so, starting with Slackware, then Gentoo, then back and forth from Arch to Ubuntu. I am a developer and use linux daily. I would love to hear what I should use instead of windows.

Build them a PC with Linux to learn what you have learned about it. And buy a PS5 for Fortnite. Other popular games are released cross platform anyways. Consoles are much easier to handle in the long run. Their business model is less intrusive…

> Fortnite does not run on Linux. What do you suggest?

Don't play Fortnite. Skip the game that was designed to rip off your money instead of entertaining your kids, and teach your kids something useful like programming their own games.

On the one hand, I want to downvote you for the typical "change your usecase" response, but on the other hand Fortnite and its ilk are designed to be addictive and rip people off and reducing their influence in your kids' life is probably a good idea.

It's very charitable to assume that they just don't understand. Personally I think they understand perfectly well that ads reduce the value of their offering but don't care because money.

Indeed, value for whom?

today a new stupid applet appeared on the taskbar, and it defaulted to italian, picking up language from the location (without even asking permission to geolocate me first!) instead of my os language.

it's not just the nagware, the whole system experience is shit because it's so inconsistent.

I run a english language / italian keyboard, and every update it decides to reset my keyboard to english layout.

search results are still this bad, with unrelated results shadowing good matches: https://i.imgur.com/uJY7uCJ.png

windows security often gives me a notification. the notification say: "no action needed"

it's like they just put interns in cages and set them to program away, building stuff for the sake of accounting new lines of codes.

I wished a lot more companies would learn that lesson. It is such a pain when you have to use some software and then you get the popups about new features. The features may be brilliant, but right now I don't care. I am doing something.

Yet somehow PMs never realize that if they let the features be visible in the corner, I would click on them in 10 seconds when I am done with what I am doing and would actually want to read them.

Looking at you, Google Maps.

No, I don't need an "easier way to do X, Y" or whatever else your obtuse program manager decided would get them a promotion.

I'm operating a 2-ton vehicle in traffic, so THE EASIER WAY would be to not obscure 50% of my phone screen, making me take eyes away from the road for an extra 2-3 seconds.

Hint for anyone reading this at google - it's in the name. Maps. That's all I want from your app, UNLESS I am specifically searching for Food/Hotels/Groceries. Also, please stop doing a UI redesign every year.

No, I don't need a pop-up if you want to reroute me around an accident. If it's faster - just reroute me, if it's not - don't.

I like all the things in Google Maps that you disagree with. Maybe you're just not the target audience and should switch to an app that works better for your needs? Google Maps does automatically choose the better route if it finds one, but it gives you time to cancel that action if you'd like before it switches.

As a fellow user of Google Maps, I'd gladly give up those features to make the roads a little safer. You have different priorities.

Yes but what I mentioned does not require any interaction, it still does change the route to a faster one without having to do anything. I don't see how that makes a difference in safety?

I am not worried about people using a GPS on the road, I am worried about the people I've seen who are scrolling through their social media feeds and watching videos that play in the feeds and everything. Or the people sending big text messages, the people who are having conversations with passengers and for some reason always have to look at the person to speak rather than keeping their eyes on the road, etc....

> Yes but what I mentioned does not require any interaction, it still does change the route to a faster one without having to do anything. I don't see how that makes a difference in safety?

It makes a difference for people (like myself) who very much don't want the route to change automatically. It means that some attention has to be paid to the app so you can tap the screen in time to make it stop, and it means that you have a time-limited action that you must perform. Two things that add to the cognitive load and distraction.

Yes, but the OP of this comment thread you tagged along on said they preferred it the other way:

> No, I don't need a pop-up if you want to reroute me around an accident. If it's faster - just reroute me, if it's not - don't.

That is what I am addressing. That it already does automatic rerouting without user interaction being required.

Settings are supposed to exist, despite what corner-cutting suits would like to believe.

Different people do have different needs, and it's clear that Google Maps attempts to reach a wide audience since it's both a map, business directory, and navigation service.

If it must ask, offer "always pick faster route" and "always follow planned route" buttons on first use and in a menu somewhere.

I mean always follow planned route kinda goes counter to the whole point of navigating with Google Maps. Google Maps uses live traffic data and user reports to determine the best route. I don't see why they would add these features and then offer an option to just ignore those features and instead use a fixed route. There are many other apps that offer that. Even just downloading a paper map off Mapquest would accomplish that similar goal.

I think we all know by now Google goes for the simply route that asks the least of a user. Google is well known for not providing much customization and basically forcing you to use it a certain way. And clearly this model works with the popularity they have. I know us powerusers don't always like this kind of thing, but for regular users this is the way that seems to work best.

I disagree with using pop-ups during driving to make users discover those new features.

I don't actually hate the new features themselves.

It's amazing how Google employs all these super smart people and they end up doing stupid shit like that.

Not so super smart, then, are they?

Throughout all these comments i just hear George Carlin....'people that should be.....'

As much as I prefer Google Maps's routing functionality, this is one thing that admittedly Apple Maps gets right in its UI; when you open it, there's a map, a search box, and my search history.

Google Maps used to be that, until PMs took over pushing random new features. No, Google, I did not open your maps app so I could see "what's new", and have no desire to do that. Even the search history is broken -- it now uses some inscrutable logic to decide whether or not a previous search is worthy of inclusion into the past searches list.

Yes, I check traffic much often than looking for Food/Hotels/Groceries, but somehow the toggle for traffic is hidden behind a small layer icon, while Food/Hotels/Groceries occupy the top of the screen.

Well, Food/Hotels/Groceries is an ideal place to show ads - which is the primary actual purpose of Google Maps as far as Google is concerned.

Problem here is that purpose of Google Maps is completely divergent between users and Google.

For example Food/Hotels/Groceries is an ideal place to show ads - which is the primary actual purpose of Google Maps as far as Google is concerned.

The main problem is that if the company's model is "growth and engagement", the objective of the company is for you to "engage" with them (and look at the ads or whatever dark pattern they're pushing). It is not to help you accomplish whatever task you were trying to do with their product. The "product", if it's there, is merely a necessary evil to convince the users to "engage" with it.

The PM couldn't care less about whether it interrupts your flow - he just knows that interrupting the flow of millions of people will net them that next promotion and a nice "increased engagement by double-digit percentages" bullet point on the resume. The company executives don't care either, because they know that boasting about the increased engagement figures will make their stock price go up.

By the time the degraded experience causes actual repercussions for the company (if it ever does - it won't if they've got a monopoly), both the aforementioned PM and executives will be long gone and will already have cashed out.

Sure, but I have seen the same thing with paid software, and it lowers engagement because by the time I am ready to read it, I can’t.

Your reading of the situation is wrong.

Vista broke 30% market share meaning that MS can push terrible UX and get away with it. Further, in the Vista era there was a more palpable reduction in performance that doesn't seem to be happening.

MS has made their calculation, and it may lead to more revenue.

> Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready to learn this lesson the hard way again!

Nah, it's just some manager who needs a pay raise.

I had a laptop that came with Windows Vista and I don't remember it being full of distractions. Granted, perhaps the OEM turned them all off.

Neither Vista nor 7 had any distractions. Except for the games like Minesweeper.

> tried to make features (and products) "discoverable" by pushing them on you with alerts and banners, but the result, when multiplied by dozens of product teams and PMs, was an overall user experience that was noisy and unpleasant.

Did you say alexa?

> Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready to learn this lesson the hard way again!

You mean product managers? I’m not sure what engineers and designers have to do with this. My guess is that they know it’s stupid, tried to shut it down and failed.

This is tangental to the topic, but we must create a notion of Obligation in society to both actively teach and learn from those who have gone before us.

this pretty much describes why I couldn’t stand that Windows era and strongly preferred my Mac instead. It was like it was designed to be anti-focus

And before that there was clippy...

Sounds like Windows users are unpaid beta testers.

How is this related to ads?

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