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Comment by cryptonector | Hacker News Reader

We're getting into ever more dangerous territory. We should find a way to de-escalate.

It might help to explain what de-escalating would consist of in this situation.

I don't know. It might mean having some proper negotiations over the future of Ukraine. It might end in partition. It might end in some other way. Right now things are headed in directions that strike me as very dangerous. I would feel a lot better if there was an attempt at negotiation.

Negotiation would require acceptance that one side is the West/EU, which itself would be a major escalation. As long as the situation continues to be framed as Ukraine defending on its own, then the only negotiation point is for Russia to decide to stop attacking - Ukrainians won't stop defending their country.

Internationally, Russia has dug itself a deep hole with its own shortsighted actions - 1. hundreds of billions of dollars of damage and outsized civilian death that necessitates hefty war reparations to Ukraine 2. foreign investment and reconstruction that Russia simply cannot supply 3. Ukraine would be highly foolish to give up seeking NATO membership as "neutrality" would just be an invitation for Russia to rebuild its army and restart the same war in the future 4. becoming part of Russia's empire has become even less attractive with the ascendant totalitarianism.

Having part of Ukraine in EU is not impossible and I think with the current state of matters, may be accepted by many. The other option is a full NATO-Russia confrontation that will tip the scales in one or the other direction. Of course all this assumes that it doesn't escalate up to a nuclear exchange. It looks like the desired outcome for the US is to remove Putin from power and to bring democracy to Russia. Whether this war is seen by US as a shortcut to this or as a long term, strategic move to achieve it is currently not very obvious. It looks like the desired outcome for Russia is to have a clear border with NATO, that is sufficiently distant from Moscow, to gain some territory in the process that is rich in natural resources and inhabited by many Russians and dare I think about it, to push the world's financial system away from USD.

What are proper negotiations? Russia will stop shelling civilians if Ukraine cedes them territory? If they're willing to shell maternity wards now do you think they'll think twice about Holodomor 2 to pacify the territory they stole?

What about a year from now when they decide they want more of Ukraine? Ukraine should negotiate then and cede more territory? Agree to be a Russian puppet state?

What we need is a compromise on the partition of Russia.

Russia is the last empire in Europe. It needs to be broken down along ethnic lines like the Austrian Empire was. The remaining Russian part would be much less of a threat to world peace.

Why is the US so hellbent on fighting for Ukraine in this case?

NATO, not the US, and because they’re asking us to.

Also it’s a chilling return to a Soviet era Europe in a way that hasn’t happened since WW2. The whole world is watching to see what a country can get away with, nearly 80 years after Hitler’s Germany.

But Ukraine isn't in NATO and East Ukrainians identify as Russian.

Ukraine wants to join NATO. And, if they join NATO, rules can be bent, and they can do anything which Russia doesn't like. What would happen to Crimea if Ukraine had joined NATO in 2020 or 2021?

> East Ukrainians identify as Russian.

And of course you have a source for that?

> East Ukrainians identify as Russian

This is not true, ignorant, and parrots hateful Russian state propaganda.

So my friend from Ukraine is lying and reciting Russian state propaganda? If there was ever a time for him to be anti-Russia, presumably, it would be whilst his country is being invaded.

I guess you're right. I'm clearly ignorant for trying to wade through the immense amount of propaganda from both sides[1] here by getting some insight from someone born and raised in Kyiv.

Also, I think Russian state-backed media is banned in the US now (where I am), but I could be wrong.

1: https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...

I find it curious that you mentioned the us banning Russian propaganda, but no mention of Russia going full great firewall the past few weeks

I hope that these people are just paid Russian trolls cause if that many people in the West are following Russian propaganda so blindly, the future is bleak. Russia has not produced anything of value to humanity in decades, just suffering and decay of common sense.

I was trying to refute the claims of the GP. Please don't insinuate I'm on Russia's side because I'm trying to understand both sides of this horrific situation. It's possible to be pro-Ukraine but also see why Putin invaded.*

We need nuance rather than black-or-white positions.

*: I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

Not an explanation for my question but sure. I will believe you. I just see the same talking points as RT, which is why I was curious

Accepting the most radical point of view of the state massacring civilians in another country is not "trying to wade through the immense amount of propaganda from both sides". Even if your friend "born and raised in Kyiv" is real, lived in Ukraine in recent decades and its their actual point of view that Ukrainians == Russians, that's still just an anecdote. And well, because of people with the views like that, horrible atrocities are justified.

Russian state-backed media is not "banned" in the US (who, exactly, would do this universal "ban"?), and the fact that you think such a thing is even possible makes me suspicious of your claim that you're from or are currently in the US to begin with...

> So my friend from Ukraine is lying and reciting Russian state propaganda?

I'm Ukrainian from South. Yes, he's lying. They might speak Russian or be sceptical about decisions that our government makes, but they're in no way identify themselves as Russians.

I watched a brilliant interview with Vladimir Klitschko with him basically saying that Ukraine is part of Europe. Why are you standing by and not defending this European country? It was the way he said it, so brilliant and convincing.

Ukraine has won the information war in a total wipe out.

And Bostoners identify as Irish. Should Ireland annex it?

No I mean NATO, not the US, would fight for Ukraine, not the US.

And yours is an "is" argument, I'm giving an "ought" argument. NATO ought to fight for Ukraine, because Ukraine is asking NATO to do so.

You think NATO ex-U.S. would fight better than the Russians? What would the order of battle be like?

The US is a member of NATO, so why would it be NATO ex-U.S.?

Russia and US have been fighting via proxy wars for decades. So in this case it's less about helping Ukraine, and more about thumbing our nose at Russia.

The election is coming soon, Audience is bored of Xinjiang "genocide" [1], inflation is high due to printer brrrr.. And, the president is losing reputation due to the Afghanistan war, inflation. So, what can they do? Poke the bear and a madman from Russia starts to invade. Now, they can so pretend they are aligned with humanity by doing something.

However, the Yemen war is still going on and only a few people know that. EU is still buying Russian oil. The US is begging despots from Saudi, Venezuela, or Iran ..... What a mess.

[1] https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/02/13/genocide-is-the...

What specific trigger is equivalent to poking the bear? If anything, by lifting sanctions on Nord Stream 2, Biden gave in.

Because we've been ginned up with Putin-Trump conspiracy theories for the past half-decade.

No one cared when Russia annexed Crimea in 2014.

> Why is the US so hellbent on fighting for Ukraine in this case?

The US (and NATO more generally) is hell-bent on not fighting for Ukraine, because Russia.

My cynical bet - the victims (aka Ukrainians) look (in popular press photos & video) similar enough to "white" Americans to really push the emotional buttons.

I have Ukrainian friends from college and co-workers (at least in part because my wife is Russian). We have a Ukrainian cleaning lady. It is easy to see people you know caught in this war.

Contrary to what some people believe US gets involved in conflicts beneficial to US. US and Russia have been in a proxy war for years now. Russia was putting bounties on US military.

It is in US interest that Ukraine does as much damage as possible to Russia. Now, the world is seeing how weak the Russian military is, a lot of poorly maintained equipment. Sanctions are going to cripple Russian economy. The western world is completely turning against Russia. London is passing laws to stop Russian oligarchs from owning property. Switzerland stopped being neutral and is freezing accounts. This is unprecedented.

We might be witnessing the downfall of Russian empire.

> Russia was putting bounties on US military.

Please stop spreading literally fake news, it hurts the cause for us to stop real Russian misinformation. Things like this is used to say that ALL western media is lies

Fact check: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56775660.amp

> Why is the US so hellbent on fighting for Ukraine in this case?

It's not, so far, but it would be because Ukraine is a democracy and Russia is a dictatorship.

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