Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets
googlemapsmania.blogspot.com
googlemapsmania.blogspot.com
On the other hand, the actual due process part happen when the actual authorities of those countries, follow the laws of their country, and seize those assets because of sanctions.
An upvote alone is not enough to echo this comment. After all this is Hacker News. Not really a great place for insight in due process, but a good one for things OSINT visualization projects
So it's not doxxing because they're Russians?
Russia is currently bombing Ukrainian hospitals. This is a somewhat tame escalation in that light.
If there are digital archives left over after all this, these are the conversations people in the future will be reading to understand why the fuck Russia was able to get so much implicit support. Ever wonder "how germans let Hitler get away with it"? Future generations will look back at these to understand how Putin got away with so much.
Say hi, you're on a book. What year is this?
EDIT: I’m also calling it whattaboutism because I don’t think folks are actually arguing that other nations should have entered the Iraq war on the side of Iraq or ISIS. If they’re legit arguing that, it’s valid (though I disagree).
Later edit: To make things clearer, because I have the impression that people in the West live with the idea that out-here in the former Communist East (from where I'm from) things like nationalisations and all that were done sort of outside the law, hence why doing similar things in the West right now might be ok because it's done under the auspices of the law, I repeat, most of the that stuff was done with the law in hand.
I even wrote/implemented a small personal project [1] based on such a law, the June 1950 nationalisation law. I wanted to see where were located the properties of the Bucharest-based Jewish population that got their properties confiscated (remember, this was after WW2, under a regime that had fought against the Nazis). Of course that the Jews were not implicitly targeted by that law, but they were greatly affected by it (being, on average, a little better-off and more urban compared to the regular Romanian peasant).
[1]http://bucuresti.maglina.ro/nationalizari/ (you have to ignore the GMaps warning, I was too lazy to put anything else in place since their API changes some time ago; also, not sure it works on mobile).
In the USA this is specifically banned by the Constitution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder
It's universally thought as a "bad thing", and more like a "highway robbery" than something citizens actually want.
But when it's the russians, it's suddenly ok.
Is it technically ethical and nice? Maybe not, that can be debated. But I don't see why we should care. Russia's also seizing foreign property as well as invading another country, if you do want to have that ethical argument.
This is how the world works, I don't think we should get bogged down in whether it's technically entirely OK for those poor Russian-govt-linked billionaires to have less yachts. It's in our power, it's in our interest, and that's how the world works.
American oligarchs have total influence over American government. If they allow such thing to happen they are materially responsible for the damage.
Why mexico or canada? Why not for iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? Jugoslavia? Why only for annexation and not for "just bombing" or even occupation, with yes, tanks?
Shelling civillians?
Like bombing a civillian train? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing
A bus? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%C5%BEane_bus_bombing
How about escaping refugees? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Albanian_refug...
Or a foreign embassy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_C...
Civillian tv station? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_the_Radio_Tele...
How about directly custer bombing a city? Twice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1_cluster_bombing
A hospital? https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans...
So you agree, that if US/NATO doesn't immediately pull out from eg. syria, that switzerland can take away googles property in Zurich?
Because those are different things.
> So you agree, that if US/NATO doesn't immediately pull out from eg. syria, that switzerland can take away googles property in Zurich?
No, I don't agree.
Why don't you agree? Americans occupied a sovereign country, started a war there... why no sanctions against american oligarchs? And if not, why sanctions now against the russians?
Full scale invasion with intent to annex with nearly complete global opposition is different from America going around the world to kill people at their whim, very often with support and acceptance of other nations and occasionally with support of large groups of people in countries America messes up.
Putin invaded two countries and parts of Ukraine already in a predictible pattern. And next ones in line are NATO countries. I guess enough's enough to take action.
Serbs in Yougoslavia tried to do racial cleansing. Ukrainians never had such ideas.
By drawing such overstretched parallels you are no different than Putin supporting Russian now, nazi German after the WWII or Serb after they were stopped.
Putin has a russian minority in ukraine, that was being attacked for a long time now, by groups like Azov (who were globally marker as neonazis just a few months ago, by most mainstream media), and which are now a part of national guard (for the last ~7 years). You cannot call it racial clensing if all the people mentioned are white (serbs, albanians, russians, ukranians), but considering the amount of brown people the americans have killed in the last few decades, it makes you wonder.
Are you seriously trying to justify what is happening right now in the Ukraine by existance of small nationalistic groups not condemned by the Ukrainian government? Anything that this fringe nazi group did, Russian soldiers are doing on a country wide scale as we speak.
And yes. Approval of parts of invaded population matters. That's one of the reasons world didn't react strongly to annexation of Crimea. And large groups of Afghanis were in favor of US bombing Taliban.
And also yes. Allies matter. Even the moral allies.
And sure, you can imagine a world in which EU and UK support Putin in the invasion of Ukraine for entirely selfish reasons with Ukraine being as innocent as it really is. It wouldn't be good then.
But if Ukraine built death camps for their Russian population. Allying with Putin to put a stop to that would be good.
However we do not live in any of those worlds. In ours Ukraine just wants to be a country and a nation they were always striving to be, despite being repeatedly crushed by the Russian heel and murdered by millions. And the west is supporting that ambition despite the great cost to its economy that is the result of cutting outselves off from Russia exports. We are doing it for both moral and selfish reasons. Because people and their actions are nuanced like that
It's never as simple as "it's ok when we do it".
I'm very sorry that you are struggling with this world to the point of turning you into a tube for clear aggressors.
I mean... that "small nationalistic group" became a part of the official national guard, so it has support from the government itself. What exactly did eg. Afghanistan do, that attacking it was "good"?
> And also yes. Allies matter. Even the moral allies.
Oh yes... if your friends say it's ok to bomb some random country, that makes it OK?
> But if Ukraine built death camps for their Russian population. Allying with Putin to put a stop to that would be good.
Afghanistan had death camps? Yugoslavia did? Iraq? Lybia?
> However we do not live in any of those worlds. In ours Ukraine just wants to be a country and a nation they were always striving to be, despite being repeatedly crushed by the Russian heel and murdered by millions. And the west is supporting that ambition despite the great cost to its economy that is the result of cutting outselves off from Russia exports. We are doing it for both moral and selfish reasons. Because people and their actions are nuanced like that
Yes, so did every other middle eastern country strive to be a normal, peaceful country... sadly most of them have been attacked by americans, some more than once.
America had no real reason to attack eg. afghanistan, but they did. Because you find americans to be allies/friends, you support them at that, even though they basically destroyed the country in the same way as putin is doing now. And same for many middle eastern, south american etc. countries, that were attacked by americans. Putin is atleast using the same excuse america used when they attacked yugoslavia. America couldn't even plant "weapons of mass destruction" in the second iraq war, but that faked excuse was enough to attack a sovereign country.
America has been destroying countries for decades now, for same egoistic reasons putin has now. They have destroyed many buildings, killed many people, army and civillian, children and old people, destroyed infrastructure, etc., and the destroyed/killed numbers are a still lot higher than russias, even with this war now.
I have no idea, how lying about weapons of mass destruction can be a good reason for you, to attack a country on the other end of the world, and than act as if you're better than putin.
Out of military involvements I support only the one in former Yougoslavia because it prevented genocide and ended the hostilities.
When you are comparing Putin to someone you can compare him to Serbs. Because similarities are many. And current support of Putin comming from some Serbs only proves that they are spiritually similar in their nationalist ambitions towards their neighbors.
When it comes to everything else America did in middle east and elsewhere I think it had a huge negative effect. That it was unjustified, immoral and instigated just for the economic benefit of US military industrial complex under the false pretenses.
However since US military budget is what it is and there are other strong global players that might act up in the future (Russia, China) the countries of the world couldn't really seriously impact USA.
However USA deserved to loose every bit of global good will and moral standing that they lost due to their actions.
But nothing USA did puts Russia in any better light. Existance of one murderer doesn't make the other murderer less worthy of contempt and punitive action.
You may cry 'hypocrites' all you want but we live in the real world in which because we can't go after one murderer, because he's too powerful, doesn't mean we just let all the murderes free pass just to be consistent.
Be anti-american all you want. It doesn't mean you have to be pro Putin.
To be honest I myself would prefer Anerica sat this one out just because of their lack of moral standing and history of direct mythicized conflict with Soviet Union.
I think Europe should wipe Russian hardware from Ukraine using just European equipment.
Honestly, I would have thought that the recent nationalisation of Russian oligarchs' assets over much of the Western world would sent thrills down the spines of many, many other wealthy people, no matter their citizenship. Probably it was a shock to them, too, I expect a counter-reaction via media in the coming weeks.
Locke wrote his famous treatises on government especially for cases like this one, i.e. what happens with your property when you fall on the wrong side of the current powers that be? He said that said powers shouldn't confiscate your property, and there are many smart people who have said/written during the last few centuries that that viewpoint stands at the basis of our (Western) civilisation. Interesting times, to say the least.
Probably.
The case against the Russian oligarchs is better because they are quasi state actors, however, but the case against the Russian oligarchs looks bad too.
Google's founders were funded and supervised by DoD employees in their grad school.
https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci...
Here is how "Google Earth" happened: "In-Q-Tel sold 5,636 shares of Google, worth over $2.2 million, on November 15, 2005. The shares were a result of Google's acquisition of Keyhole, Inc, the CIA-funded satellite mapping software now known as Google Earth."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel
Facebook launched in 2004. First check from Peter Thiel, who founded Palantir in 2003. DARPA's Lifelog was "cancelled" in 2003.
They were designed to be mass surveillance from the start. Some even funded directly be equity investments at pre-seed/seed stage. Others, funded at the research stage.
The people you quoted have a lot of power and influence. That doesn't make them state actors. The difference is extreme. If you genuinely don't understand that difference, I invite you to read "The Dictator's Handbook" by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita, which nicely explains (among other many interesting things) how dictators and authoritarians wield and share power. You can apply those lessons to how Russia and its oligarchs work.
In the book de Mesquita refers to regardless of whether the system is Authoritarian or Democratic, rulers have to please their respective circle of power brokers. The only difference is the number they have to placate. And the US is not the prototypical example of the most democratic and grassroots political system out there by a long shot.
To say I believe Biden has been on his throne for 22 years is such a blatant strawman, I find it difficult to take you seriously. Even if he was a Senator since 1973 who clearly knows how to stay afloat in politics for 49 years.
American billionaires have too much power, for sure, but that's a statement on the power of money and the ability for people to amass too much of it in one place in the USA. Russian oligarchs have this power because Putin shares it with them.
Since you've read the book (and I'm guessing agree with it, as I do), we're on the same page about the spectrum of democracy vs authoritarianism. But nowhere can you compare the actual individuals. Individual Russian oligarchs are the equivalent of extremely large corpora of people, servants and businesses; not of individual CEOs.
Also Afghanistan wouldn’t wouldn’t have been invaded if they handed over the Osama.
You can't even make them pay proper taxes,... "ripped off their nation" applies very much to most sillicon valley companies.
>Also Afghanistan wouldn’t wouldn’t have been invaded if they handed over the Osama.
"Do what I say, or we'll invade you!"
.... "It's ok, when americans do it!"
I'm sorry that you're dealing with some incovenciencse. But there are people dying right now.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni...
But when america does it, it's a "war for peace!" - https://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/11...
Look, we all agree war is bad... I live in the balkans, and I had american planes flying above my roof, bombing a country 300km away not that long ago... not to forget all of our "local" wars before that. But saying that americans are any better than russians or vice-versa is a huge lie. Russians atleast had a "weak" period in the 90s, where they didn't do this shit, until they got their economy fixed a bit, americans didn't stop even then.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/24/world/europe/putin-ukrain...
Please. Stop. Amplifying. Putin's. Message.
Why cry about ukraine and not about syria?
Why are you so keen on protecting the americans, when they're just as bad as putin? If america invaded ukraine, this would be just another "war for peace", like every other american war was.
I'm more personally involved in the Ukraine war because this is my government, and my extended family is targeted. But I never fucking ignored Syria, and I'm not ignoring it now. I'm saying that all you're doing here is helping Russia, which helps neither Ukraine nor Syria. So stop it.
Let's say you have a country, and there is a minority in that country... and people hate eachother a bit, due to historical reasons, there are tensions, a war, the minority unilaterally declares independence, some superpowers support them at this (others don't), main country disagrees and attacks the separatists, and after all that a superpower comes in and starts destroying the main country to get what they want.
If you're not sure if I'm talking about ukraine or kosovo, you're right, the scenario is the same, but since the americans were doing it back then, the destroying of the country was "good" and now it's "bad".
If switzerland pointed fingers at putin.. sure, point, curse, whatever. Nato members (including my current country now) should just stay quiet, because they did the same, many times before.
We're pointing fingers. Switzerland is pointing fingers. I'm OK with the USA's support in the fingerpointing, so please let us have their fucking support. Every Ukrainian I know is OK with the USA's support, and it's been by far some of the most effective in this war, so please let them have their fucking support.
You don't get to pick and choose your own allies, LET ALONE SOMEONE ELSE'S.
Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government?
And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'.
Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against.
Even during the war you would expect the overseas property to be quarantined to use it as a lever during potential peace talks. As opposed to the unreversible confiscation such as giving it to somebody else to own. I'm not sure if that's what happening here.
but when a veteran soldier confronts a former US president for pulling pretty much the same shit, he gets dragged and thrown out:
https://old.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/td5wgj/ir...
Have we seen the same video? There's no threat. He said "You lied" and "You need to apologize".
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30548972
Everything that pushes the required narrative gets massively upvoted and accepted as truth without verification, even if falsified later (like the “Ghost of Kyiv” which turned out to be screenshots from a video game)
You can try it yourself. Take a random picture from Google and put a made-up caption on it and note the results.
Like, you're trying to frame it as some kind of hypocrisy, but it's not a stretch to imagine that the people who rage against russia on reddit and the crowds who go to Bush fundraisers don't overlap much.
I have Ukranian/Russian roots. My girl, born in Germany, was just pushed by classmates and called nasty words just last week in school.
This reminds me of the racism against Asian people when Covid appeared.
This war only has losers, the Ukranians, the Russian people, the Europeans, the Americans.
Edit: Somehow some posts were deleted from this thread, also my experience with Racism I have faced a few days ago. That is strange.
Amazing how quickly our base, tribal instincts kick in when an "enemy" appears. All pretense to "peace" and "restraint" and "avoid foreign wars" goes out the window really damn quick.
If you're the kind of person who looks back and thinks "man, how could America be so stupid to get involved in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq"? Well, you're living in those times right now.
Hell, that's exactly why we put the Japanese in internment camps. Looks like a pretty good portion of HN would support that even now.
I told my child to say that she has Ukranian roots (which she has, my grandmother is from Ukraine) and deny her Russian roots after she was bullied last week in school. I tried to explain to her the situation and the motivation of those bullies.
I also deny my Russian roots in the volunteer group I support in my city here in Germany. They need Ukrainian/Russian speaking people to help to translate. When I first joined the coordination zoom chat of one group and it was my turn to introduce myself and mentioned my Russian roots (to explain why I speak Russian), I got banned. I later joined another group and there only mentioned my Ukrainian heritage. Now every day I help as a translator for the people who come to my city and I am very happy to do that.
As they cliche goes "the veneer of civilization is thin".
Wishing you the best during these difficult times.
This isn't a thing that happened.
Looks like a pretty good portion of HN would support that even now.
No, it doesn't. "It's okay to freeze the assets of the oligarch collective currently invading a friendly nation" is quite far away from "let's round up Russians and put them into camps" and your comparison is ridiculous.
Who would this be? A casual googling shows an individual from Finland has been the director since 2020. What am I missing here?
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-Symphon...
Director at SF Symphony lost a bunch of gigs because the Montreal Symphony cancelled a bunch of performances by a Russian pianist.
I’m sorry but a state does not go full totalitarian in a week. Putin has been in control for 20 years. This, was predictable and many had been predicting it for a long time.
What happened over the last couple weeks is that “authoritarianism” has lost its sheen. Russian-style strongman authoritarianism has bee a twinkle in the eye of a certain strain of American and Western politician for some years now (I’m looking at you Peter “Democracy and freedom are incompatible” Thiel and Fox News), and people who previously called Putin a strong and capable leader are now either having to get on board with a genocidal war, or eat crow.
A lot of people (on this site and elsewhere) are still even pushing the lines coming straight out of the kremlin (but biolabs! But nato aggression! Think of the poor oligarchs’ seized yachts! Can we really call the invasion and slaughter of Ukrainian people and cultural identity a a genocide?). It’s really quite sad how self proclaimed free thinkers on this site so obviously push the Russian propaganda being circulated in their conservative newsfeeds. These talking points go from the Kremlin, to Fox News, then back to Russia to be aired on RT, and at some point they make a stop here on HN by avid “free thinking“ consumers of this media.
> I’m sorry but a state does not go full totalitarian in a week. Putin has been in control for 20 years.
the point is that it has happened suddenly in the past couple of weeks; let arrests of top FSB officials speak for it.
> This, was predictable and many had been predicting it for a long time.
oh that is absolutely true. every child in eastern europe knows this. the point is, when it happens matters - and it just has.
My point is that invasions don’t happen suddenly. Even if the spark happened in the last few weeks, the preconditions to make this war possible had been laid for years. People pretending that they never saw this coming are the very same who have been cheering Putin and Russia on for years.
note that if not for these laws and arresting people holding blank pieces of paper, there would be a full-blown revolution in moscow now.
Yes, it's a war. Deal with it
If they have a problem they can take it up with their boss.
> to this is getting pretty fucking scary
I believe there are kids in Ukraine who are legitimately scared. Getting your megayacht confiscated is just a first world problem.
The countries doing the seizing aren't at war with Russia and seem adamant about currently not being at war.
We're trying really hard to toe the line in order not to start a third world war. But we are at war. We're sending aid and weapons every day by the megatons to Ukraine.
Ukrainians are fighting on our behalf, so that nuclear escalation does not happen. But as far as Russia is concerned, we are at war, and in fact Putin himself said that the various sanctions and such are "acts of war", even if he hasn't acted on it (yet).
i'd google what mr. neville chamberlain did in 1938, though.
German clinic refuses to treat Russian Patients [0] Canada bans Russian pianist from performing [1]
0: https://www.rtl.de/cms/muenchen-iatros-privatklinik-will-kei...
1: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/arts/music/russian-artist...
Do you think that is OK? Because of a lunatic in their home country?
The same things were said about the Jews in the 1920's. We should try to be carful, and keep our empathy.
The clinic has reversed their position by the way
Frankly, what kind of communication do you expect from civilians in a kill or get killed situation.
it is a war, and the one started by them. They should be grateful of losing only property while people in Ukraine are losing their lives. They didn't afford due process to those Ukrainians. Actually they don't afford due process to any Ukrainian. What expectations of due process they may reasonably expect for themselves after that? After the war these Putin's top supporters should get punished for the war crimes together with Putin. This is the due process they should get.
Limiting blame only to Putin just doesn't make sense. Putin doesn't press the button launching missiles. All Russians in Russia are responsible for what is happening. Just looks at bacchanalia of "Z" symbol celebration these days across all Russia (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/07/world/europe/russia-lette... - The "Z" is the marking on the Russian armor of the western invasion group in Ukraine, the one which is attacking Kiev for example, and that symbol became the symbol of that war in Russia). You wanna get beaten as a dirty traitor by a bunch of Russian passer-by-s - just make some offensive comment on the "Z".
>And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'.
It is applicable only to Russian soldiers in Ukraine. It would be strange that one can shoot such a soldier, yet wouldn't be able to call for a death of the soldier on FB.
i agree it's a fine line, but then, these people are undermining western democracies and at the same time seek safety in them. they assumed their assets would be safe and tried to max their payouts.
US oligarches are the people that decide what the government is allowed to do. They can stop any decision that they don't like. If they don't stop it, they are responsible for it. And should pay for it if the rest of the world decides it's prudent.
Yes, I think most of us would agree it is reasonably acceptable to freeze the assets of people who have close ties with a government currently engaged in an invasion that is being condemned by the people doing the seizing.
Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government?
I'm sure there are – and I hope that if, say, the US decides to invade Mexico and start levelling cities, then other countries seize the property of rich Americans who are backing that invasion.
And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'.
No we don't – you chose to deliberately misrepresent this.
Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against.
Nah, false equivalence. I think "we are going to seize the international assets of supporters of a regime engaged in a war we consider illegal" is a pretty fine tool, and really not anywhere close to "we are going to launch an all-out invasion of a relatively functional sovereign democracy".
Yes and it always has been. None of these people are actual citizens of these countries in any meaningful way, and Russia is a mafia state where the sanctioned individuals have more or less committed crime in order to gain these assets in the first place, and they are helping someone that the countries seizing assets believe is committing a war crime.
This is more like having a king and princes and princesses and seizing assets of the princes and princesses conducting the war. These aren’t like “oh shucks” rags to riches wealthy everyday Russians.
> Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government?
Sure you can. And Iran or Venezuela or Russia or North Korea can seize their assets in those countries for committing “crimes” as they see fit. Wonder why nobody has assets in those countries?
But this whataboutism also fails because (insert cartoon CEO villain scapegoat) isn’t giving money to Joe Biden to go personally invade Canada. It’s incomparable.
> “Something something Iraq”
First who cares? We’re talking about Russia and Ukraine.
Second yes countries can decide that they don’t like Americans and seize their assets abroad.
> Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against.
You haven’t seen anything yet. We’re 100% going to war with Russia or will be engaging them directly unless Putin is deposed and I don’t think that’s going to happen. He wants a war so it’s just a matter of time until he decides to attack resupply missions in Poland directly on Polish soil.
> And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'.
You're absolutely right in both regards but please do not conflate those two.
I'll weep zero tears over Putin's rich friends not being able to play with their yacht anymore, but common Russians having to leave their home country and suffering from heinous mob mentality outside have my dearest sympathy.
Just in case there's misunderstanding about what "seize" means...
Are governments actually taking ownership possession (nationalizing) of Russian yachts or are they removing the assets from the owner's control?
In other words, does "seize" mean:
(1) civil forfeiture like USA police confiscating cash without due process ?
or
(2) freezing an asset like impounding/towing a car away and the owner can eventually get the car back later (e.g. after Russia stops the war) ?
The various reports I've read makes it seem like UK is treating Russian yachts as (2).
In contrast... with the fleets of airplanes leased from Europe sitting in Russian territory, it looks like Russia does literally want to take ownership of them in retaliation to sanctions.
At least in Europe AFAIK. The rationale is to prevent, at least temporarily, oligarchs from benefiting from their assets. And the possibility of getting them back could give these influencial oligarchs an incentive to push for a resolution of the war that might be less catastrophic than where it is headed now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_ideologies
Not quite sure which part of punk idealogies you are aligned with, but imo seizing assets of bloated billionaires that support and profit from war is definitely a punk move that I would support.
2. Wars of this scale are not fought between governments but between societies. Anyone who contributes to the economy of Russia (or Ukraine) is participating in the war. Third countries that favor one side of the war may seize the property of those who are contributing to the other side. Legally and legitimately.
3. Property rights are only as strong as the governments guaranteeing them. If no government is able and willing to guarantee them, they cease to exist in any meaningful sense. Once the war is over and the dust has settled, the victors and their friends will sort out who owns what.
Seizing the assets of a de facto government agent of a sanctioned country is following due process. Governments decided by their own internal deliberation mechanisms to sanction Russia for its aggression in Ukraine. The world didn't magically decide to seize assets of some random Russian speakers because they said mean words.
> And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'.
Nope, they relaxed rules specifically with regard to Russian armed forces[0]. It would be pretty ridiculous to ban a Facebook user in Ukraine that call for the defense of their country by attacking the invading soldiers.
[0] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-facebook-inst...
This also sets another dangerous precendent, that you can just sieze property of someone you don't like... people protesting against covid measures? Seize their property. Protesting against a pipeline.. sieze their property! BLM, pro-trump, anti-trump, eco-protests, sieze everything!
Yes. And if America invaded Mexico and started shelling their cities, I'd like the world to do exactly the same. Tank the dollar into the ground and seize all assets of American companies and individuals who own over a 100mln dollars and stop all trade. You are benefiting for your government, you are materialy responsible for its actions. In the modern world there's no other way to keep the world sane.
If something is going bit too far is excluding Russian sport and culture. But even that it only mild overstepping since large number of Russians support their government and large part of Russian export of culture and sport is government subsidized.
How strongly the world reacts now is the only thing that can curb future teritorial ambitions of other countries like China. The message should be clear. Starting a war will cost you, your economy and the wealth of your wealthiest. And the world will really shrink for you because you won't be able to enjoy its freedoms.
Mind your tongue. It's not seizing, it is just a special legal operation. Absolutely nothing to do with seizing.
I'd also want to remind what Karl Popper said about Paradox of Tolerance.
" Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal."
Who said there's no due process? That's why it's getting seized. Forfeiture happens later if it's proven laws have been broken.
Besides, seizing property is better than more violence. Maybe if the Taliban seized the assets of rich american elites America would have left Afghanistan a lot sooner.
>Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary.
I'm watching people lose all their private property or worse while the aggressor responsible for the situation threatens “consequences greater than any you have faced in history” to any nation who wishes to step in and stop this. Pretty scary huh?
>We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against.
So no military intervention and sanctions. How is this supposed to end? I don't think apathy will do it.
Also, governments can un-seize property back after a while. It's not like this stuff gets immediately liquidated and funneled into defense spending or disaster relief or whatever.
Honest question: Are Russian oligarchs more tied to the Russian gov't than in the USA, like how the RBN is more tied to gov't than American counterparts such as Pegasus/etc.
I'm not saying people here are Russian trolls, but if your key reaction to "What's happening in Ukraine is shit and we need to do something NOW" is to say "Oh but what about what the US did in the past?", you're amplifying Russian propaganda, and it may be because you've been hearing Russian-funded articles/media, directly or indirectly.
Nothing, in the immediate, will be done about the US's past war crimes. Should something be done? Yes. Is having this conversation now while Europe is at war and civilians are dying every day, hospitals are bombed, and millions are fleeing Ukraine? No, all that serves is to strengthen Russia's position on the web, which is a very important part of their strategy (as it has been for the past 8 years).
So I ask of you:
1. Do not amplify Putin's message and propaganda. You want to talk about this stuff? Wait for the war to end. Please.
2. Stop making everything in the world about the USA, FFS. My friends and girlfriend's family are hearing bombs fall every day, why do you have to make this about you?
Where have you been when RT was doing that brazenly in front of your faces with full acceptance of the governments?
It's quite frankly amusing that it took Russia an invasion of Ukraine for that to become illegal, while before (Brexit, etc) it was just "freedom of speech".
I was always there, speaking out against propaganda, maybe you can check my post history.
And I don't know what you're on, but "everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia" is utterly wrong. HN is becoming a very scary, far too pro-Russia place since the past week or so now that the Russians have gotten a better handle on their propaganda. If you have doubts, you can look at my post's score which is hovering around zero, constantly being voted up and down.
Opinion in Europe is extremely anti-Russia at this point, but I see that the US media is coming back to its old habits pitting controversy for the sake of clicks.
As a result, US opinion went from overwhelmingly anti-Russia to "maybe they're not all bad I mean let's just look at what we did before oh well" in the span of a few days.
Not just "because US has done worse", but anything from "it's our fault because of NATO" to "Ukraine is supposed to be Russian anyway, he's taking back what's his".
It's not the majority opinion (yet), but it's worrisome.
I guess the idea that it's our fault spreads easily when it gives people another thing to say Biden has done wrong.
As for any claim that Ukraine is Russian, if that's a thought that anyone genuinely has and not just Russian disinformation agents, then I hope they have no problem letting Europe have their American colonies back. Or turning their homes over to the American natives.
If a nation does something that other nations do, it is completely unjustified to pretend that their actions are wrong. The international community normalizes actions through actions. You might not like the fact that some particular action is normalized but you cannot suddenly villianize a nation for doing the same that other ("our allies") nations do regularly.
Ok. If that's the case, then Russia's actions justify any action the West ever takes in the future. There are no rules, all bets are off, and all war crimes are justified henceforth. Including the use of nuclear weapons, which was normalized in 1945, and the use of biological and chemical weapons as normalized in World War 1.
You wont' complain if any nation - the US, Israel, anyone - invades a sovereign nation and slaughters civilians because that's been normalized and is now justified, correct? And nothing - absolutely nothing - is more important than not being a hypocrite, correct?
Actually, now that I think about it, since the US wasn't even the first country to invade Iraq or Afghanistan to begin with, their actions were already justified. It's not as if the US created imperialism or war, so what are people even trying to accomplish pointing out America's flaws? It's been normalized for thousands of years, what's the problem?
Let's be clear, there are war crimes happening daily in Ukraine and there is NOTHING normalized around this. The US having done it before doesn't make it fucking normal, but it also doesn't mean the top priority now is to talk about US war crimes.
1,582 civilians killed by Russian shelling and blockade in Mariupol (Reuters): https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraines-mariupol-says-1582-ci...
Lavrov confirmed that Russia deliberately bombed a maternity hospital in Mariupol (Article with more details from the Independent): https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/russia-maternity-hospti...
These are just two random recent examples I pulled from a long list of updates. Let me know if you want more, there's a buffet of choice.
"It is not possible to straddle the middle and try to apply the same sets of rules to every actor"
And this would be, how justice is supposed to work. Apply the same rules to every actor. Otherwise it is not justice and you loose every credibility, when you claim to wage wars in the name of "justice". It becomes just a meaningless word and you no different from the bad guys.
"and celebrate our allies"
So hooray to the great rulers of Saudi Arabia and co. May they live long and prosper, bomb the shit out of their enemies in Yemen(370000+ deaths so far) and stone their own women to death, if they dare to speak up and disobey.
Let's be extremely clear: Russian people are not the enemy. Very few people here in Europe think this, and those who do are mostly the xenophobic assholes who enjoy thinking anyone who isn't them is the enemy anyway.
Oligarchs are Putin's keys to power. Sanctioning them is a way to hurt Putin's power and influence, which has a chance to bring the war to an end. Not sanctioning them because "oh there's a chance maybe one of them actually doesn't like the guy" is an idiotic move.
Given recent russian history of fights between Putin and various oligarchs - I rather think it would be a idiotic move to target them all without due process - because the chances are actually quite high, that many of them oppose Putin.
This is how we're helping a coup d'état happen. It's a good and solid strategy. A lot is riding on this.
Ok, I would be somewhat fine with it, if it is only "freezing". But still not without some form of process, that shows links of them to the government, or support/benefit of the war. Because otherwise this sets a (further) dangerous precedent. There was something called, "rule of the law".
But need I remind you, we are at war, with an enemy committing war crimes every day and absolutely not respecting any "rule of the law". When you're up against fair adversaries, it's right to call for a fair fight. When you're up against somebody who's getting dangerously close to getting us into a nuclear war, it's ok to take some damn shortcuts.
Fat good the "long term consequences" of not having followed proper procedures will do us if half of Europe is irradiated. As we say in France, "there are largers cats to whip". I don't care, I live in Brussels, well within the blast zone.
Erm, no we are not. Russia is at war with the ukraine, but not with the EU, nor the USA. So maybe do not escalate?
"where is the rule of the law not being respected"
Where is it? It is not the case btw. that there is a title called "oligarchs". What all of this means in its current shape, is targeting simply rich russian people. Now sure, chances are quite high, that they got to their wealth through crime, but law does not usually operate on cliches.
"with an enemy committing war crimes every day"
And as far as I can tell, way more horrible are being done in Yemen for example since 2014 with no one giving a shit about it.
Yes, we are. Like I said upthread, we're sending aid and weapons en masse into Ukraine. Putin has put us on a shit-list of countries, and even called the sanctions a declaration of war: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60633482
It's a proxy war, but still a war, with high chances of escalation. It's also being fought online, over social networks, with Russians actively spreading propaganda on our media and networks.
I've not been drafted yet, but the likelihood is becoming higher over time. We are at war, it's just not official yet. But as far as Russia is concerned, it's not even official in Ukraine, so "official definitions" don't matter.
> And as far as I can tell, way more horrible are being done in Yemen
ctrl+f whataboutism on this page, please.
I know, I know, only good propaganda supporting your cause is allowed here by your opinion.
But can you please explain to me, why a ukrainian child is worth more, than a child in yemen? Because they are also dying right now, too and in greater numbers. Caused by "our" allies. Not only in the past - but also today.
I think we need to be doing something about both. Otherwise it is just hypocrisy.
"It's a proxy war, but still a war, with high chances of escalation."
And yes, with every fanatic statement, chances of escalation are increasing. But have you heard of something called "Mutual assured destruction"? Sowjet Union did probably way worse than russia today, but was not attacked. That's why.
"I've not been drafted yet, but the likelihood is becoming higher over time. We are at war, it's just not official yet."
And do you know that you can go there and fight today? Ukraine is welcoming volunteers. But maybe bear in mind, that unlike in CoD, you might actually die there on day one. And it likely won't be heroic. War seldom is, nor black and white, especially not if it is in part a civil war. And you might end up fighting next to actual fascists. Not (only) against them, but with them. Stepan Bandera is considered a National Hero there to many. Google him if you are curious. And then about the Regiment Asow. And then about the ukrainian law, that was targeted against the russian language way before the war. Not against russian propaganda, but against the russian language(and people). Putin is a war criminal, belonging to Den Haag - but the ukrainian side are not made up by saints either.
""official definitions" don't matter."
And unlike in your opinion, official definitions actually matter a lot, because the moment russia attacks NATO territory - ALL NATO forces will react. Not before, no matter how great the lust for war, for people beating the drums of war online.
This is whataboutism, again. I never said such a thing. I'm more involved in the war in Ukraine because I have personal stakes in it.
This thread, HERE, is about Ukraine. You're trying to make it about Yemen. I have a close acquaintance currently dying of cancer, do you see me making this thread about cancer?
> And do you know that you can go there and fight today?
Yes, I'm acutely aware. I almost signed up. I decided not to, because I do not have military training. Since the attacks, I've been taking first aid and firearm training, whatever I have time for. I intend to take combat training later this year. Don't think I'm sitting idle here; the best thing I can do until I'm ready, is fight propaganda.
No, I am trying to make it about peace. How to resolve conflicts. And I seriously doubt we can really resolve conflicts, if we only solve some conflicts, but profit of others. Because yes - we profit of the war in Yemen. By selling weapons to Saudi Arabia and buying their oil (and in the case of the US also with direct military involvement). As long as we do that(and all the other shit) - how can anyone take us seriously when we say we care for peace and democracy? That's double standards and hypocrisy, which is the fuel for war and conflict.
"the best thing I can do until I'm ready, is fight propaganda."
So you want to fight propaganda? Why not fight the propaganda, that we are the good guys fighting the bad guys. Because this is not true, if we only do it sometimes and ignore the many times we don't.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Ira...
We could have a ceiling of say 50 million quid and you get to say you won capitalism, and everyone throws you a bug party.
How do you expect to have Google, Microsoft, Apple Tesla, SpaceX? if their founders were to retire once they have 50m
Or maybe others would be highly productive if the current people retire.
> shift their goal from making a great profit to making a great social impact
who says they will shift?
Progressive taxation should be uncapped, when you pass some threshold of "this is more than you need in the lifetimes of you, your partner, your next-of-kin to all live a life of unparalleled luxury" then it should escalate up to 99%, and if you pass some really obscene threshold equivalent to a small country's GDP then let it go to 100%.
Wealth taxation should be effective. No individual needs to own land area equivalent to a city, or housing and art assets of a disproportionate nature.
And on the flipside... income taxation can be lowered if we're more effectively taxing wealth and the obscene earnings. Instead we could encourage far more social mobility and the growing of a far larger middle-class. Tax low earners and those without wealth nothing at all, and tax the middle-class only a little.
This opinion won't resonate on HN, but modern society has become so effective at extracting money from people and enriching a few, and rent-seeking as a business model so prevalent that it does feel we're at risk of putting future generations in a serfdom role that had taken hundreds of years to get out of.
This is all distinct from what's happening in Ukraine and with sanctions, this is just an opinion about what's happening in the World at large.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/61percent-of-americans-paid-...
Why stop at 100%? Assuming it is okay to put a cap on how much wealth and income a person can have, it should be sensible to have marginal tax rate higher than 100% of the taxable income.
You earn more than 100M in a year? Please pay 200M until your wealth is back to sensible levels. Alternatively, you can reduce your taxable income by making charitable donations willingly – same thing as far as balance is concerned, but you might feel differently about it.
Perhaps if anyone asks the Russians they can just say it was worth it[1].
Let's stop with pretending that the reason why Ukrainian deaths are different is for any other reason than because they're pale skilled Europeans with blue eyes and blonde hair. Most major media have already admitted it, governments have already applauded it in parliament, it's probably about time that HN stops pretending it's about other reasons too.
[0] https://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/iraqi...
For a long time, West Europe sought good relations with Russia and benefited from trade. That changed when Putin attacked Ukraine. The war hit too close to home, and West European countries could no longer trust Putin's intentions. The primary reaction was a sudden increase in military spending. As a secondary reaction, West Europe gave ok to stronger sanctions that were already supported by East Europe and the US.
What's happening in Ukraine is a completely unprovoked attack by a nuclear power led by a madman who seems to have lost all grip on reality. The potential for escalation in to something nobody ever imagined possible is very real.
Lastly, there's also such a thing as "intent". Cynical responses will surely follow but I'm convinced that while the US made many colossal mistakes in the Middle East they never came close to having malicious drive that Russia is showing now.
Way to lose the point. Nothing on that paragraph is different from the Bush Jr. excursions into the Middle East and threats all over the world?
Not to say the entire situation is alike. It's not. But on those features it's similar.
Irak was a dictatorship which committed genocide on its own people. Even if the reasons weren't true (and they weren't but people believed the propaganda at the time) there was at least the hope that things would improve for the people. (For the Kurds, they have.)
Ukraine is a democracy. The propaganda isn't even good enough to fool anyone.
The situations are very different.
I even saw some brown people getting murdered by US forces on TV in my local McDonalds at 4 in the day one time.
By the Iraq War Bodycount's dataset, the civilian kill count of US forces alone, without including the Iraqi government forces, almost matches that of the sectarian terrorists who explicitly sought out to kill civilians. From occupation to leaving in 2011, it is only about 20% less. That is plainly unacceptable and criminal in any context.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/oct/25/iraq-t...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/24/iraq-war-logs-...
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2010-03-10/oba...
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2011-05-23/us-...
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/iraqs-new-death-sq...
It's perfectly consistent to believe in equity and believe that neither the Russian nor the American billionaires' assets should be seized.
You can't just handwave away one side and say "regardless of whether you believe it's justified for group A, you have to believe it's justified for group B".
I have to agree with everybody else in this thread, not a big fan of blaming the people of Russia for what their dictator does; even if they are in his so called "inner circle". Perhaps these people can pressure Putin to change his mind, but he doesn't look like a humble man looking for advice.
It is a weird development, but all things considered not the worst thing that's happening.
I agree, not a big thing, and I certainly think people with that kind of wealth know more about hiding money than the rest of us will ever know, and this war will probably not affect their wealth too much. They probably all knew in advance and shorted some Russian stock on the London stock exchange - making a killing. I do find it a bit strange that we "cheer on" this seizure of property based on nationality though; but most probably think it's ok since they are so obscenely rich.
If I am forced to return and work in Russian IT (seeing as I would also not be able to get paid by overseas customers due to sanctions), we both know which government's war this would support.
This talk now is in response to Russia acting in that manner first.
Russia is TO THIS FUCKING DAY in Georgia and nobody cares about it.
Georgia and Ukraine are just 1,167 km = 725 miles away but the West only plays world super police when something near to the EU border happens or if the country has a lot of Oil.
I am really sick of the politics of both sides. If the US would have done something in 2008, than Russia wouldn't even dare to touch Ukraine.
I could say the exact same of Turkey and Cyprus. Being sick of the politics "on both sides" only serves to lessen the CURRENT reaction. It's not useful.
You want payback for Georgia? I want payback for a lot of other things that didn't get their deserved political reaction. NOW is better than "let's just not do it cause we didn't do it last time".
Poland understood what was happening from the first invasion. But western governments have their perception impaired by distance or something. Maybe yoi can't hear bombs that well from under all of that Russian oil.
Only the vision of Russian tanks on NATO border and two million of refugees entering EU got through to them.