Comment by qiskit | Hacker News Reader

Comment by qiskit | Hacker News Reader

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> helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

The italian renaissance started in the 14th century for sure and maybe even in 13th century depending on who you ask. Though the exact date can be disputed, nobody disputes the fact that it started long before the fall of the byzantine empire in the mid 15th century.

And the italian renaissance had more to do with direct trade opening up between europe and china/india/etc via the mongol empire ( who had an indirect role in the creation of the ottoman empire ) than anything else. Prior to the mongol empire, they had to no direct trade with either asian centers. Instead they depended on the arabs/persians who acted as middle-men between china/india and europe. It's why we call numbers, Arabic numerals, while the arabs themselves call it Hindu numerals. The arabs got the numbers from india and we got it from the arabs. It's also why europeans used to call china cathay, which is what the arabs called china.

Trade increases wealth. Wealth increase arts/humanities. This is true for italy, india, china, europe, united states, mesopotamia, ancient egypt, etc. It's like how spring rain brings about floral bloom. The italians started getting ridiculously wealthy in the 13th/14th. And like magic, the renaissance was born.

Interesting tidbit, the mongol empire had a significant but indirect part in the "discovery" of the americas by columbus.

>> helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

> The italian renaissance started in the 14th century for sure and maybe even in 13th century depending on who you ask. Though the exact date can be disputed, nobody disputes the fact that it started long before the fall of the byzantine empire in the mid 15th century.

The early "Renaissance" was Latin, the Renaissance proper was Greek. That's all you need to know to figure out when (1397+), where (Florence+), and how it started. The seed is more important than the soil.

"Interesting tidbit, the mongol empire had a significant but indirect part in the "discovery" of the americas by columbus."

So did the Ottomans. Their monopoly of the eastern routes caused the Western kingdoms to go the other direction.

The Ottomans did not get a monopoly on eastern routes until they conquered Mameluke Egypt in the early 1500s. Western European (particularly Portuguese) attempts to go "the other direction" started in the 1400s.

If you look at a changing map of the Eastern Roman Empire over time, like the Western Roman Empire, it "collapsed" well before it fell.

Many educated elites from Rome moved to Constantinople a century before Rome fell. ...and similarly, the most educated elites left Constantinople for northern Italy (and Russia!) before the Ottomans smashed down the walls over the preceding century.

I'm kind of perplex but can understand why it's really hard for European people to admit that Renaissance in Europe has much to do with two concurrent Muslim Empires (Spain and Abbasid) rather than the remote Mongols. Also talking about Columbus discovery of America, I'd not be surprise if in the later years people found out that there were some of the crews are the force converted Jews and Muslim onboard based on Alhambra Decree that's being introduced exactly in the same year as the journey happened. The necessary technology for sustained shipping and navigation definitely from the Muslim Empire that preceeded the event.

Some fun facts, Muslim Empires also strecthed to the Italian Sicily Island (ultra Pharum) who ruled for few hundred years before it's later conquered by the Normans, who then later conquered the Britain [1]. Obviously this southern Italian empire is very much cosmopolitan not unlike the old day of Constantinople/Instanbul and modern day New York with probably the best hospitals in town [2].

If I want to guess this is the time Italian Renaissance started because of the superior way of life is happening right at their doorstep with a thriving community basically different in their mentality, religion, culture and lifestyle.

[1]Muslim conquest of Sicily:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Sicily

[2]Schola Medica Salernitana:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schola_Medica_Salernitana

The so-called pax mongolica:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Mongolica

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