What it costs to live in Japan | Hacker News Reader

What it costs to live in Japan

bemmu.posterous.com

112 pointsbemmu70 comments

One thing he doesn't mention is transport costs. Japanese people have their commuter train costs paid for by their employers. If you aren't Japanese, you probably have to pay for this yourself. I thought I was clever by living in a $280 apartment 40 minutes outside of Tokyo. However, my train fares ended up costing $600 a month, so I moved to a more expensive apartment where I could walk to work.

Likewise, road tolls are incredibly high by North American standards. I remember one 30 mile stretch that cost $17 each way.

Whether or not you have to pay for your commute probably depends on who you work for and what your contract is. I worked full time for a Japanese company, and they did pay for my commute; granted, I was also being paid a typical Japanese salary, not an expat salary.

> I was also being paid a typical Japanese salary, not an expat salary.

I'm curious if you mean to imply that an expat salary would be higher or lower?

I think in average expat salary is higher

In Japan, employees mostly start at roughly the same salary - somewhere between $20k and $30k per year, regardless of position, with salary increases reflecting time spent at the company.

Expats often move at the request of the company, and not into entry level positions. Employees who are asked to relocate would expect to do so in exchange for a raise (particularly if their home country has higher salaries and they expect to move back eventually), so expat salaries tend to be significantly higher.

Given that, I wouldn't necessarily expect expats to be offered the same benefits as native Japanese employees.

He seems to work from home, so I would think his transport costs would be minimal.

That said $600/month! Ouch. Out of curiosity why doesn't your employer cover the transport?, As far as I know all of my non-japanese friends here have their transport covered.

Regardless, I definitely agree on moving closer to the city, I ride my bike everywhere in a 10km radius.

I was working under the table. I got paid in cash, in a big manilla envelope. This was ages ago. I no longer live in Tokyo.

I like hanging out in Japan and I can confirm this.

Last year I spent 2 months right outside Tokyo (on the Keio-Inokashira line) and this year I'm here for 4 mo right smack dab in the middle of it.

Since I'm only here on a tourist entry visa, I can't get "real" services so I'm paying 140,000 yen/mo in rent (for an admittedly pretty decent place, and no "key money" and they charge it right to my credit card) and $250/mo for an unlimited data SIM card rental (can't even get prepaid without a proper visa…), but aside from those inflated costs, everything here is the same or cheaper than in Sweden. Especially eating out. E.g. back home you can't get any prepared meal aside from sloppy tax-evasion kebab for less than 90 SEK (US$13) but here you can get away with it for at least half of that.

Public transport is about the same price as at home, but it's really easy to underestimate how big Tokyo or even the whole country is. Thinking "oh I'll go to yokohama for that party" it's really easy to forget that at home that'd be the equivalent of taking the train to the next country over.

I absolutely love it though, anyone even remotely considering coming here should definitely do it, even if just for a short while. It's an amazing place.

Edit: oh yeah, I got an ear infection while here and had to go to an ear doctor without any insurance. For the first visit (which included a signup fee, a hearing test and a prescription), I paid $150, and the 2 followups each cost closer to $40 each. This sounds about right for what I'd pay at home if I wasn't european and got free healthcare (my reference for the cost of European care comes from my parents, they moved to Australia and lost european coverage so when my mom fractured her jaw when she was here for a visit she had to pay out of pocket).

By the way, you can get a prepaid Softbank mobile on a 90-day entry permit if you look in the right places. I had luck at the Don Quixote in Roppongi (no surprise there). It probably didn't hurt that I had my Japanese address written out in kanji and folded in a piece of paper inside my passport.

Data service, though, is still unavailable prepaid, I think.

You can get prepaid data from b-mobile and I highly recommend it. They piggyback on Docomo's network and they sell both data-only and data/voice prepaid sims. I don't know if they check visas for the voice version nut the data version is cheap and you can buy it online with no credentials. It's the best thing I've ever seen out of the Japanese mobile industry.

One thing he doesn't mention is that Tokushima, is, I believe, something of a backwater, It's not even on honshu (the mainland of japan), wikipedia lists it as the 86th most populous city: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_cities_by_popu...

I'm not sure how much this plays into the cost of living; I am assuming that things are a whole level cheaper than in Tokyo, as it would be compared to any other country, but I'd also be curious how it compares to secondary cities, such as osaka, or other smaller places w/ more population....

  > I am assuming that things are a whole level cheaper than
  > in Tokyo

Depends on what. If it's not even on the mainland, then shipping could be expensive. For example. Yellowknife (Canada) is away from major cities, and I'm sure that real estate is cheap, but shipping costs have to be through the roof.

There is a land bridge to Tokushima.... I assume most goods are trucked in.

It's night and day.

For what I'm paying for a tiny 1LDK (one bedroom, living-dining-kitchen) in Tokyo, I could get something about three times the size in Saitama, and that's still within commuting distance.

Go out into the boonies and space gets really cheap.

Food is also cheaper, but you pay a lot more for transportation.

  [it costs] about 1400 eur ($1870) / month. 
  I live with my wife ...
  All of these expenses are just what I pay. For now we are
  splitting everything ... keep in mind these costs are just
  what I personally pay.

So basically it costs 2800eur assuming he splits evenly with his wife.

Why on Earth would you not include her share? (even if you maintain separate accounts or something... people want to know the total cost)

I think you don't get it. He is talking about his personal expenses. Things that are shared between the couple are paid by them both.

For example, the total cost might be 2200Eur because the husband spends more money on Gadgets, Laptops...

But things like Internet access can't really be 'split.' If his ISP costs $62/month, then a person living alone wouldn't be paying $31/month.

Hadn't occurred to me that split accounts are weird, but I suppose it does go against how most people arrange things. Works for us.

(I liked your article btw. Sorry I didn't say that up front before)

Not that weird, my wife and I keep some things in separate accounts and other things in joint.

My point was that without knowing the ratios, knowing your numbers doesn't really answer the original question except in the most literal sense of "what does it cost you to live there?"

If your share of the living expenses are, say 1500eur and your wife's are, say 1000eur, then why not just say "2500"? In my opinion, when $friend asks me "How much does it cost to live in New York?" What they are really asking is either "How much would it cost $friend to live there" or "What are the comparative costs against some baseline, e.g. {$friend}'s home area"

That speedtest is interesting considering popular conception of Japanese FTTH speeds. Under 10 Meg download for over $60 per month? Where's the 100Meg for $20 or whatever is usually mentioned in the "bash US broadband" articles?

What's funnier is that upload is twice that of download. You usually don't see the ratio's flipped like that!

I can only assume the speeds he is getting are a result of where he is living. For a similar price I get ~95/50 in Tokyo: http://www.speedtest.net/result/1515164158.png

"I am enrolled in the Japanese national health insurance system. My monthly premium is 20 eur ($26), which is low as my income in Japan is zero (my income is officially in Finland, where I pay taxes). A 15 minute doctor's visit costs 58 euro ($77) without the health insurance."

Moving to Japan would save me approximately $4000/year in health insurance costs. Right now I pay $260/mo for myself and $160/mo for my kids.

Damn.

Well, it doesn't work that well for everyone. Since health insurance cost depends on income, I previously had to pay more than $700/month for health insurance for myself. I haven't even dared to look at insurance costs more recently.

Before you start packing, make sure to compare taxation and coverage.

From everything I've read, and from talking to Japanese friends, it sounds like doctors in Japan are generally far worse than you would hope for.

I am convinced that for 99% of doctor visits the quality of doctors is completely irrelevant. So long as they can fill out prescription forms and scold you for your blood pressure/weight/drinking/smoking, you're going to have the same experience.

I would be more concerned about surgeon quality, but that sort of thing is rarely needed.

As someone who had Kaiser Permanente coverage as a young adult, I don't agree with you. The doctors were incompetent, incapable of diagnosing why I was falling ill with the same symptoms every month. They gave outright bad advice on the subject of an ankle injury, which scared me off from doctors for years. In my experience, the difference between a good doctor and a bad doctor is enormous.

Ten years ago, I might agree.

But now, not so much. In my experience, Japanese doctors are on average quite good, and unlike in the U.S., you can actually walk into a clinic or hospital and speak to an actual doctor, not a PA or RN, within a reasonably short period of time... without having to go to an ER.

A very close friend of mine is an ENT, and her husband is an oncologist, so I've got a bit of insight into the medical system here. There's no direct equivalent of the AMA, so there's no artificial restriction on the number of physicians produced every year.

Starting pay for a new physician out of residency is much lower than the US, but rises quickly with experience. Also, to become a doctor, you aren't required to first get a BA or BS -- you just go directly into medical school for about six years, as I understand it. Followed by rotations and residency, just like we do it in the U.S.

Other than not needing to get a BA/BS first, medical training in Japan is effectively the same as the U.S.

There is one problem that deserves mention: "chinese medicine".

Many people, especially the elderly, prefer to seek 'traditional' treatment for health problems, so there are plenty of 'doctors' and clinics certified to practice chinese medicine.

These operate alongside, and sometimes inside, traditional clinics. They are part of the medical fabric here for historical reasons, and many Japanese swear by them.

Personally, I've had the misfortune of visiting one of these when I had a minor bronchial infection, back before I understood enough Japanese to know what I was being prescribed.

Two weeks of worsening coughing and hacking, and each visit I got a stronger packet of what, pardon the pun, boiled down to being some notably awful tea.

Once I figured things out, I visited a real doctor and picked up the local equivalent of a Z-pack (azithromycin), and was fine by the end of the following week.

I don't think it's the quality of doctors but the language barrier that limits your selection. There are some doctors that specialize in treating foreigners purely for financial reasons (not for better money but for income stability since the market is a bit competitive). Also, doctors tend to come from a position of authority and they don't really care to explain things thoroughly. It sounds like I'm proving your point but I've rarely had a negative experience with the quality of doctors. Dentists are another story...

Well, the basis for my opinion of Japanese doctors comes from talking to Japanese people, and from some books about Japanese expats.

I'm not even going to get into the stories I've heard from two Japanese women about being effectively molested by their family doctors around the age of 16.

What is "key money" ? A bribe? Or is it security deposit?

Can you imagine them marketing a 660cc car in the USA? I'd love to have one but it will never happen.

It's more like a broker's fee, but goes to the landlord. It isn't returned when you move out.

> Theoretically we could get some back when we move out, but based on our Tokyo experience I don't really believe we will.

That makes it sound more like a deposit that slimy landlords will find an excuse to not refund ("Ooh, look! A scratch in the shiny floor!")?

I don't know why he wrote that. Key money is not returned.

It could be that I am just totally wrong about this, as I am not the one who signed / read the rental agreement, but afaik both the Tokyo payment was and this payment is supposed to contain one month of deposit as well. For the Tokyo one we didn't get it back.

Key money is a kind of "tip" albeit a big tip -in the way of several month's worth or rent. It's separate form a deposit -which is also necessary. Foreigners can be asked for more key money than locals. Key money is negotiable --newer properties may not require key money, also vacant properties may forgo key money.

> Can you imagine them marketing a 660cc car in the USA? I'd love to have one but it will never happen.

Sounds like a "smart" to me. According to Wikipedia you can buy one in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_%28automobile%29

The American version of the "smart" uses a 1000cc engine, not 660 like the European. My 15 year old car gets better mpg than the 2011 smart.

American cars need to maintain 45mph or so at a 6% grade to be allowed on many interstates. Your 15 year old car does not need to meet 2011 emissions and safety standards.

edit Also, the EPA has changed to more aggressive testing procedures over the last 15 years. What was a 45MPG car in 1990 (Toyota Tercel) is now "35MPG".

Traditionally, when folks from the country moved to the city, they would bring 礼金 (money in return for a kindness - n.b. It is what you call paying someone to tutor you, too) to show thanks for their landlord taking them under e landlord's wing socially. In modern Japan this doesn't really happen, but traditions are durable. Prevailing norms differ by area, but it can be anywhere from nothing to, most commonly, 1 to 3 month's rent, and it is compulsory. You never receive 礼金 back. Most apartments also charge a security deposit, generally one month's rent. Custom in Japan favors the landlord heavily with regards to security deposits, for example in accepting debits against it to return the apartment to pristine condition (such as buying new tatami), so most people wouldn't expect to receive it back either. e.g. I got charged a $350 "cleaning fee" after paying for my own cleaners to make it absolutely sparkle. Their employee apologized but said it was standard practice.

Ah, so it's a "polite" bribe, heh.

Managed properties in the USA also almost always keep a security deposit and find something else to clean. So basically you are paying for their own property depreciation, they cannot lose.

When you have bad credit, it is common here to require first and last month's rent in addition to the security deposit. I thought maybe that was the equal of "key money" but now I understand.

So with the key fee @ 3 months' rent, first and last months' rent, and a security deposit, you could have to front 6 months' rent to move in!?

And still they wonder why some young people are very averse to moving out from their parents' homes (I'm not referencing hikikomoris, that's a whole another matter).

Sounds like NYC.

I don't know what you mean by "last month rent", but yes, between key money, deposit, real estate agent fee (1 month's rent), insurance and, if you're foreign, guarantor's fee, you typically pay something like 4~6 months' rent upfront.

Last month's rent means you've prepaid for the final month of your rental. In the US, if you're in a region where this is legal/accepted, when you give 30-day notice you don't owe any money for that final month.

I see. In Japan the rent is usually paid in advance anyway.

You mean last two months' rent. The two you pay in advance.

keep in mind key money its also an incentive to not bail after 3months of living there. As unlike the US you can terminate your rental agreement at any time with a 30-60day notice and dont have to pay rent until end of contract or someone else moves in.

  > dont have to pay rent until end of contract or someone
  > else moves in.

So if you give 30-60 day notice on an apartment with a contract that still has 1 year left on it, you can basically stay there rent-free until they find someone else to rent it (or until the original contract runs out)?

s/dont/only/

You only have to pay for the gap time until a new tenant moves in. Basically the renter provides vacancy insurance, not a guaranteed sum.

The market is competitive, though, and there's a lot of places offering zero-reikin (礼金), or if they don't, are willing to negotiate.

Especially if you look during the off-season when nobody is moving; for those that don't know, almost everything in Japan is seasonal, from new-graduate hiring to apartment-hunting. This is changing, but bucking the trend can save you some serious money.

You'll still have to hunt to find something good, but I'm willing to spend some evening and weekend time to save myself enough cash to purchase all new appliances.

For example, my current place took almost a month to find, but was zero-deposit, zero-reikin, and came with a free month of rent. I'm in central Tokyo, so I cough up $1300 USD/month in rent for a whopping thirty-five square meters, but the convenience is very much worth it.

For others interested, I paid one month key-money, no deposit and half a month to the rental agent. I probably could have negotiated more but was eager to move in quickly. After getting my first gas bill the last payment on the account for that unit was two years ago so the apartment was probably empty since that time. I'm not in Tokyo though.

From my experience in the Tokyo area, the cleaning/restoration fee is negotiable if: -you haven't put money down -The contract doesn't stipulate it directly -you're willing to play hardball

At our last place, we just cleaned the apartment ourselves after moving out. While moving out, we found some serious water damage underneath a bookcase that hadn't been moved for two years (probably due to the wood flooring having been installed directly on the concrete). He quoted us a price to fix it and we talked it over. My SO said we didn't really have to pay any of it, but it's usual to pay about half of what they quote. Of course, this could mean they just pre-inflate their prices by 2x.

So one should rent from a Yakuza, now that these bribes are illegal to pay.

Real estate agents are not allowed to collect more than 1 month's rent as a fee. This means that the borrower's and landlord's agents will have to split the fee, each of them getting only half a month's rent. In many cases, some of the 'key money' will filter back to the agent as commission.

For Americans, it's worth noting that Japanese apartments don't come with appliances. You'll get to buy your own fridge, microwave, and washing machine. Dishwashers are insanely expensive, and some older places don't even come with a stove.

Appliance sales here are like car sales in the US, so negotiate the bejeezus out of them. A friend of mine picked up a free 50+ inch brand-name TV when he bought his refrigerator and bistro oven, to give you an idea of what's possible.

This is an important point especially if just wanting to stay short-term. Furnished places for rent are extremely rare. Pretty much the only chance for that is if you go through an agency which targets foreigners and you will pay through the nose for that.

Sometimes though appliances are included. My flat included a small bar fridge. Another flat I looked at (but didn't rent) included a washing machine and TV.

You'll also need your own washing machine. Rental buildings don't have a common laundry room.

One thing he doesn't mention is that living in Japan without visa "sponsorship" is a chore. There's this weird requirement that you need someone to sponsor you, either a Japanese national or your company (you can be self-employed but it's much harder). You wouldn't think it walking about Roppongi or China Town but it is.

This comes into play when renting too. The real estate agent usually requires someone Japanese to sponsor you. I know lots of guys that got their girlfriend to do this. Only applies to the initial contract.

The city version:

Living quarters suck. The closer to Tokyo, the less space, the more rent.

Anything involving services will seem overpriced. I think it has to do with high median salaries overall, inefficient distribution (lots of middlemen), and low labor productivity.

However, one thing people underestimate is the number of ways you can save by shopping smart, especially things like groceries and electronics. Or for example gyms, lots of local governments run fitness centers open to anyone on a walk in basis as long as they live or work in the area for $3 while a brand name gym will cost you $120 for full membership.

Yep, we were actually denied an apartment once because I am not Japanese.

Wait, $350 a day to feed one person?? Is that a typo?

Thanks for pointing that out, fixed.

I lived in Japan for around six months last year, and I estimate that I spent around $2,000 per month. I stayed in a nice dormitory-style guest house run by Oakhouse. Rent was about $750 per month, with no key money or anything like that. The bedrooms (bed, desk, and mini-fridge) are private, but the rest is shared, which led to me making friends with some really great people.

I wasn't in full-tourist mode, but I didn't go out of my way to save money. I found it fun to learn how to shop and cook most of my meals like a local might (lots of chicken curry and yakisoba), but I regularly went out for dinner with friends, and drinking binges on the weekends.

I lost quite a lot of money to Bank of America's ATM and currency conversion fees (I later got a Capital One money market account, which has better fees, and finally Schwab, which has none). I saved a tremendous amount of money by buying huge bags of chicken at Seiyu (Walmart), and learning what out-of-the-way big grocery stores my Japanese housemates shopped at. I could have saved a lot of money on train fare if I'd blown $100 on a cheap bike from Seiyu (or gotten a local to buy a bike at the ward sales they have every few years -- abandoned bicycles collected by the police are sold cheaply, but it's only open to ward residents).

Getting a cell phone is a huge hurdle now. You have to pay exorbitant rental fees, or have a foreign resident card (not available on a tourist 'visa'). Or, do what I did, and get a local friend to buy a prepaid phone in his or her name. That will have to be a very good friend. :-D

Oak House Kiba, by chance?

Higashi-jujo in Kita-ku.

TL;DR: About the same as in Northern Europe.

I live in Sweden and spend about a third of what he does. Then again, I bike instead of drive, and I don't often fly to the other side of the world, so that saves me a bit of money.

and you pay rent?

Yes, 2/3 of my expenses are rent (including phone/electricity).

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