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> Our other (kinda founder) who has been with us since the beginning does the back-end programming, without him it would've been hard. We are paying him about $25/hr below his market pay, but he went to college with me so he is helping with discount. The backend shouldn't be more than about 150 hours of true programming (not including research time). > > Here is the situation. The programmer is a dick. He has a house and baby so we try to cut slack, but he keeps on missing deadlines. He has almost no communication skills when we want to meet and work, he doesn't show passion like a founder.

I count six red flags. You're paying below market rate; your programmer is a college friend who probably agreed to take the job as a favor; you've given a time estimate which is probably wrong; you excluded "research time" from the time estimate when you clearly shouldn't have; and you show obvious disrespect and no gratitude.

And you wonder why you aren't getting his best work?

Couldn't agree more. I think the two founders just have no clue. Good on them for sharing the details though, they probably have a genuine desire to understand why they are failing.

Why assume my time estimate is wrong? I asked him for the estimate of hours. He doesn't include "research" time, I told him I'd pay for that time - he doesn't think it should be counted. In previous projects we've worked on, he has always underbilled we wanted to make sure that didn't happen this time.

I managed our frontend dev team and I personally estimated their hours (since I've managed software teams before) and got only 10-20 hours over.

I disrespect him because he started disrespecting me. Why assume the non-tech founder is always the bad guy?

One email for instance - "We have our life savings in this. This one feature update has taken over three weeks, please give us an ETA. Can another developer assist?" Answer: "Guilt doesn't work... I won't be able to see this until Friday. Sure another dev can take a whack at it, I'll add him to repo" (Email sent last Tuesday).

"I disrespect him because he started disrespecting me."

That is very immature.

"Why assume the non-tech founder is always the bad guy?"

Because in most cases this is true. And when you write a post titled "My programmer is a dick..." what do you think people are going to assume?

You demonstrate a lack of maturity and understanding of how to successfully engage with others. You came here asking for advice, don't be so defensive.

I debated responding to you. But I will, because I'm trying to truly resolve this situation with my dev.

I don't know the first thing about you and I won't assume. I'm asking for comments on what to do next. Sorry if I called a "person" a dick, and sorry if that person happened to be a fellow "programmer".

Would you have replied to this post had I posted "I'm having difficulty with my programmer meeting deadlines"

Deleted comment

Were you trolling? :) - I like you coffee. Isn't the assumption that I have a marketing background an assumption too? My background is web development (mostly frontend), not application development. I don't think you gave harsh criticism - hell I think we might make good friends. You don't know me and I don't know you - I tried to sum up a year's worth of work into 3 paragraphs because I want the next step (with or without our current dev).

I'm not here to argue, I'm not trying to feel sorry for myself. I'm here to talk amongst other founders and programmers in other startups.

Have you ever had a "My boss is a dick..." and chatted with like minded individuals? Everyone has, I came here almost just to vent. I know the options but I also know the risks, but just maybe, I don't know everything...

;)

No not trolling... I wasent assuming a marketing experience, it's directly what you state in your post. Maybe you meant to direct that statement to your co-founder and not yourself?

I deleted my response as it was just to harsh. If you were a friend, I would be just that direct and harsh with you, honestly I think you need it. But as a stranger looking for advise from other strangers, there is no reason to go that route.

You're right, I've had the conversation of "My boss is a dick..." but it was with fellow employees who worked under that boss, one-on-one, and not a public post. Is there a difference? I think so... But that's just my opinion.

Honestly, you're the boss in this situation. That means if this is not working, it's 100% your fault. Period. If you want it fixed, you need to fix yourself, no one else should be expected to do it. Here are some thoughts:

- Apologies to him. Tell him it's your fault things are not working smooth (even if he does not see it that way) and you want to do everything in your power to make it work better. Be genuine.

- Restate that you have put everything into this, you've risked you entire life to do this. Quickly follow up with the fact that you 100% understand that he is putting up a huge risk to work on this. He his risking his future, his family, his house. Make sure he understands that YOU understand this fact. Be genuine.

- Ask him what you can do in order to get past these brick walls. Once you ask him this, stop talking. Don't say a fucking word. Let him talk. Don't interrupt him.

- Make the changes he suggests. If you can't, then cut the cord. If you do, then analyze the results.

- If the results are good, make him a co-founder, you obviously need a technical one. Provide a document that outlines measurable results. Give him a real equity stake, with a 1 year cliff, and 4 year vesting. If he doesn't pull his weight, or produce the results before 1 year is up, cut the cord.

- If things are still not fixed, cut the cord. Lose a friend over this a gain some experience from the whole situation.

- Look for someone new. Apply these experiences to this new person.

Hope that helps. I've been through similar shit, so good luck!

>"We have our life savings in this."

Look, I get the stress of the situation, but using emotional guilt is a terrible way to try to manage people. If he's not doing the work, let him go, and make sure you set clearer expectations for your next hire. His response doesn't strike me as any more inappropriate than you dropping the life savings bombshell on him.

I wasn't trying to manage him, just that specific example was for a client who waited for three weeks for logins. All I need was an update (requested politely 4-6 times prior) and received no responses.

Those emails aren't the only ones, usually he is couple words per email. But you are right, dropping a "life savings bombshell" on him wasn't right either.

I think we didn't set expectations clearly with him because he was a friend and we worked together on various client work I didn't think anything of it.

>"Also please note as just a key employee we were going to give him 3-5% equity in the company."

A key employee who is putting $50,000+/year into your company is getting 3-5%?

Are you really worth $1million to $1.5 million after a year and will you be worth twice that next year...just so he breaks even (assuming he is only working 2000 hours a year)?

Sorry, but if you are losing clients then you and your cofounder aren't selling coal in Newcastle, and the fact that the programmer isn't welcome in the office and is being blamed for all the problems raises a question about who is actually a dick.

A key employee as in he is putting about 1-5 hours of coding per week but we needed a good backend dev and he was the best I knew. He's a college friend and I don't know how best to deal with the situation of him not communicating.

I came to ask this question on HN because I wanted devs opinions, I know non-tech founders get bad reps here - and I understand if you want to attach that bias to me.

I put my life savings into this project, I didn't ask for favors. He makes us feel uncomfortable in our office, and cancels everytime I ask him to come in. We only work on Saturday/weeknights, because I have to have a job to pay for this startup endeavor.

I don't assume we are worth $1 million or anything. I don't mean to take a defense stance, but I thought giving a portion of the founders equity made sense since he was taking a pay cut from normal hours. If he would've worked for free (like we are) he would've got founder's equity, but we still need a frontend dev which we had to pay for because he frankly said "I can do it, but I don't want to".

An hourly gig which requires one to five hours a week is Chinese water torture - just enough to be a pain in the ass, not enough to make any real money.

And considering it's being done at less than market rate - all it really amounts to is 1-5 hours of being pissed off on the cheap.

Seriously, with that little work, how often do you really need to meet face to face?

And while I understand the economics of moonlighting for a startup, it's a two way street and an unwillingness to take time off from your day job for a meeting over lunch suggests some lack of commitment on your part - i.e. you aren't willing to burn a few hours of leave from your day job, but are willing to ask the programmer to invest more time at below market rate around your convenience.

BTW, unless one person retains a controlling interest, if you are going to provide equity, 3-5% will give a third person equal control of the company to the two founders.

Just wanted to say brudgers, thank you so much for the "Chinese water torture" analogy. It made a ton of sense and I'll be meeting with my programmers to get things realigned from an expectation and compensation standpoint.

"...and cancels everytime I ask him to come in. We only work on Saturday/weeknights"

He has a baby, family, and a house. You refer to him as a "kinda cofounder" paying him well below market rate and have provided him no equity after he's put in 100+ hours into the project.

With all of that in mind, you're still complaining that he does not come into the office on weeknights and weekends?

You need to get real with yourself, seriously.

This is pathetic...

"...can sell ice to an eskimo..."

But can't sell a programmer, and college friend, on the idea of not being a "dick" to them? Sounds like the two founders have zero skill but do have HUGE egos.

They're paying him $25/hour below market rate, he's got a house and family, they have yet to provide him with any equity in the company after he's worked 100 hours on the project, they refer to him as a "kinda founder" and they're getting a special discount because they're college chums.

Are you sure the programmer is the one being the dick?

Actually one of the things I discovered while working with someone close/relative. Firstly they assume that you sort of come for a cheap price and won't have qualms or complains working for peanuts.

Secondly they assume you are some sort easy punchbag to offload all their anger in case something goes wrong for which you aren't even remotely responsible. Somehow its assumed since you are close to them you won't mind taking all that.

Part of what really pisses me off is, they feel its OK to make profit out of your work. But consider it some sort of a selfish action from your end when you expect to get paid for the work you do. I don't mind doing extra work for free sometimes. But when that sort of becomes a norm and you are expected to be the sacrificial goat for their profit, you must just politely call it quits.

These days you can earn a lot of money working for yourself. No point in doing donkey work for others profit while you are eating grass yourself.

Why do you think we have "HUGE egos"?

I'm trying to be open and candid. I just want to have a great startup team and that's why I chose him - yes because we were "college chums" and I thought he was one of the top backend devs I ever saw. How does trying to create a startup and dealing with growing pains and situation like this make be a bad person.

I don't want to "sell" my programmer on a vision, I want him to see what the opportunity is. I would love to give him full founder equity like stated (3-5% of the 20% fonders share - same as us!). I just want to figure out if we are a good fit or not, his work is amazing, we have difficulty working together.

I feel that I'm tied to one developer because of what stage we are at (prefunding) but we may raise capital or be in a notable accelerator. I want him with us, but I want someone I can work with too.

Take 2 weeks off, learn it yourself. It is not that hard! Not sure why people put this shit on the pedestal so much.

Anyway, lean it yourself, put it out there, make some money, hire at market rate. If you cannot do that then you are in the wrong business.

You make an extremely weak CEO by being this reliant on a dev.

Yeah, that's a good point. Time to brush up on my coding skills. Do you think you can sell and code in a startup and be great at both?

Fuck yes. It actually makes you even better as both, a programmer and a sales person.

Makes you a better salesperson becuase you know your product knowledge goes much through the roof, you know what is and isn't possible, and you can estimate how long things take to build and what it would cost to build them. (You are actually useful).

Makes you a btter coder because it is you who is married to the customer, so nothing is lost in translation.

Better to do the right thing, than the wrong thing 'righter'.

If he isn't meeting your needs, you should let him go. But keep this in mind: He took a $25 an hour pay cut to be with you guys, and from what it sounds like, has no equity in the company. How motivated would you be?

We want him to join us in an incubator/accelerator but we're not sure about his passion or drive. Should we continue to bare with him so that after an accelerator we go our separate ways?

Yes, you have a point in how motivated would I be in his shoes... so then how much equity is fair for getting paid to work but transitioning to founder? My partner and I have not taken any salary/pay (even from paying clients), we actually put more of our money in to bootstrap. Every ounce of additional cash I have goes there, and the sense of urgency from him isn't addressed.

Or is it too late already? I'd love for him to be a founder, but I don't want to hand over equity to a person who is going to make it uncomfortable to work with in the office. We actually prefer him to work from his home office (as does he) so we don't have to be around from him.

Then he'll do random things like switch from us buying him lunch, to buying us lunch - then we're like WTF?

I feel like I'm venting - I'm sorry. I'm just at the point that I would like to see the startup move to the next step...

Thank you for your response!

Is he really an asshole to you guys personally, or are you calling him an asshole because he is missing deadlines? I've worked with a bunch of asshole programmers, they all usually have a god complex and think they are the best in the field regardless of what happens.

It's hard for a programmer to stay motivated in the long run when things pop in his head like "I get paid $25/hr less than I could get somewhere else, shit this company may not even survive."

It's not too late, but honestly you need to step up and be a boss. You can't let your employee continue to act this way for multiple reasons. First, if this isn't/wasn't his normal work ethic, something has changed. You need to act like a leader and just ask him. If you really want him to be a founder, and he needs something that isn't asking for the world than give it to him! It sounds like you owe a lot of your projects current state to him. If he's worked like this all along, and you haven't said anything than that is your problem and you need to deal with it. A poor employee like that can bring a company down if you just like it sit and fester.

As far as he's the "only one that knows the backend", any programmer that's proficient in the language of your application can get in there and get to work. It may take a little bit of time to get used to your current programmers style and quirks, but it shouldn't be an issue.

It really boils down to the fact you need to sit him down and talk to him. Be up front and honest, voice your concerns. If there are troubles in his life, he'll let you know and you can work with him. If you get attitude and apathy from him than figure out IF you can even make him happy. If so, try. If you can't than it really sounds like you need to find another programmer. Not every programmer has the passion of a founder, especially if there is a family at home that isn't being taken care of as much as they could be.

Good luck with your situation. I hope you get it resolved cleanly.

- Brandon

Thanks Brandon, I'd love for him to just be a bit more social and give us updates. I'd like for him to be a partner and turn this around.

It is really simple.

> We are paying him about $25/hr below his market pay.

You get what you pay for.

> he went to college with me so he is helping with discount

That's a very poor excuse for not paying a market rate. You got a better end of a deal and you are complaining. How about you look at the whole situation from his end and evaluate who comes out as a dick?

A lot of my friends will commonly pass me freelance gigs. Sometimes though a friend is close enough I will cut them some slack on my hourly rate though it is usually all or nothing. Either I charge full price or I donate my time.

My advice is to sit down and ask what he wants. Does he want out of the project? More money? Does he feel disrespected?

I'm a developer. I miss deadlines because either I underestimated the time required or something else beyond my control came up. If the code is turning out harder than required then figure out what piece of it is the problem.

The fact that you are losing clients and not gaining momentum is something you have to eat. It sucks but part of it is just getting over this hump.

jtchang, thanks. I appreciate your comment and honesty on why deadlines can be missed. It was also on me not defining expectations and he may feel we'll just profit off his work and pay him peanuts. I really want him as an equal founder and would love for him to want it as bad as us.

I love all the opinions and please, hearing from devs and founders alike is amazing. I'd like to some comments that I didn't detail:

1) Total hours dev worked so far: 100, hours likely left 50-100. 2) Partner and I invested $30k so far 3) We have experience in software team management so we had a pretty good idea of what we needed from a backend dev for phase 1. 4) He is not full-time or even part-time, more like contractual basis as per his convenience. 5) We always ask for his input/suggestions, but doesn't really show it. 6) We work on Saturdays/weeknights, because my partner and I have to get money to put into the startup (and pay our devs). 7) Not expecting free work or sympathy, just expecting fair work at a fair price. 8) Dev has stated that once we get funding he'll be "more into the project" 9) Everyone has vesting options, so he'll still get something if we part ways.

I know non-tech founders get bad reps on HN and I understand each dev likely has a horror story that has developed a bias that we ask for too much in return for too little - I can't change that about HN.

I'm merely asking for two questions: 1) What would you do in my shoes? 2) How do you add another key employee/founder if we transition? As in, you've put all this time it's hard to gives the keys to the castle to a newcomer.

I've asked only 1-5 hours per week from this individual.

You asked for minimal effort; you're getting minimal effort. He probably is putting in at least that much effort, its just a really, really slow pace.

Dev has stated that once we get funding he'll be "more into the project"

Well, yeah. You only asked for 5 hrs a week, and hes working at a discount because you're friends. You're basically screaming you're not serious about this project and that you think it has no future. You haven't given him any reason to invest at all in this project. When funding comes in, it will show him that there is something serious worth getting involved in.

I feel the only way I can tell he is working is that the Github repo is updated.

Hes not communicating as much as you'd like? Then why don't you start initiating the communication? You don't have to hammer him about status reports, but bring him in the loop on your discussions, then you'll know what hes doing, and will help show him you're serious about your startup too. If you are doing that already, then start hammering him for status updates.

What would you do in my shoes?

Commit to bringing him on for more hours, or hire another programmer. Either in addition to him, or to replace him, but if you want your project to go anywhere you should be putting at least a 40hr week into your backend.

In another comment you said you're only asking him to work 1 to 5 hours a week. If the estimate 150 hours, he's got 9 months to 3 years to get the project done. If he started in May and has already gotten 100 hours in, he's far ahead of schedule.

In any case, few things of any importance are achieved in 1 hour per week. That is how much time I spend keeping my car clean.

Why don't you just hire a backend team in Poland like the frontend team you mentioned is doing a great job on the front end? Unless he's a genius and you're doing something really hairy I can't imagine it would take anyone long to understand the code. Just make sure you set commitment and deadline expectations properly this time.

It's more than a bit passive aggressive to call him a dick while posting under your own name on a public message board that loads of programmers (including probably him) read. The guy you have now will be relieved when you let him go.

You need to get organized immediately, new programmers or not. How I organize any messy/late project I've inherited successfully.

Again, 6-10 project's I've inherited from incompetent/sociopath devs and made into lifelong customers who I like working with. This works.

He needs some structure and routine and this will provide enough of it. He needs some consequence that while they're might not be another option besides him, there is a track record for him to keep and maintain. Don't threaten, ask him what he gets mixed up about a deadline being a deadline and how he can adjust his estimates.

1) Register for the free version of fogbugz

2) Put in each issue (one issue per case number/email)

3) Rank them from 1 (raging fire) to 7 (dont forget.. one day). Each ranking number is kind of how many weeks you need it in (realistically), or in how many weeks it will be completed. Ideally nothing should ever be a Priority 1 or 2. :)

4) Have individual discussions on each case, in each case, via email. This is the knowledge transfer from him into a central system should you add/change developers.

5) when you have enough information on each, rank where each is at. Analysis (what to do), Design (how to do it), Plan (who will do it when), Implement, Test, Launch, Support (bugs/wty)

6) If you can do #5 you can track everything anturally. Only communicate in Fogbugz. if it's not there, you can say everything needs to be touched on regularly.

7) Hook fogbugz up to your source code manager so each case can have the commits of each file tied to it an you start building a history of what's happening.

If you need help figuring it out I might be able to lend you a hand off-line.

OK sounds like hell, but your programmer is probably not a dick, he's probably got other stuff on his mind and I don't just mean the family.

As founders you're no doubt driven people, it's what it takes, but you can't expect everyone to share your vision, or be able to give up their time or commit their future for something they didn't invent - even if it starts to take off - simply because it isn't their idea no matter what the incentives.

That said, perhaps what you are looking for is someone who fires on all pistons, and surely you can spot that in the recruitment process. The twinkle in their eye, the energy, whatever it is there'll be a clue.

Also have you tried breaking down the tasks into smaller tasks, maybe the sheer size of the project has overwhelmed him. That way you get to keep a good handle on progress and can easily switch to someone else if things go wrong.

Talking of which, you'll be surprised how many good programmers can pick up the ball and run with it, so don't feel tied to this one guy just because he has all the knowledge.

"The twinkle in their eye" I think that is exactly right and I can't expect him to share the vision.

I feel the only way I can tell he is working is that the Github repo is updated. He's an amazing programmer and back in college we were good friends (maybe associates), he has a tendency to have "short" responses which we understand.

I think I am looking for a "firing on all pistons" type of programmer.

I think if it's this easy to find critical points about him, then you ought to ask yourself why you should be continuing.

You might be able to end the relationship now, and stay as friends, rather than prolong it and fall out.

Always a good policy I find.

1-5 hours a week is like one piston at best. And one pistons engines aren't fast.

I personally hate developing when I don't have much control over the project or when I don't see any return. Maybe you should see if he is happy with how the project is going. Does he agree with the decisions being made so far?

Don't be too controlling over his work either. Ask him what he thinks he needs to be working on and let him do it, let him come up with the solutions to problems. I hate it when I am told, 'work on this', then when I finish it I'm told, 'no make it more like this'. Most the time I know more about what is needed so just let me do my job. If you have a suggestion fine but make sure it's just a suggestion.

If you can't resolve the issue you should probably find another programmer. Try to find one who is passionate and really wants to work with you on this project. You're just going to be wasting your money and time otherwise.

Some possible reasons a developer might think of it as a project and not as a founder:

1. Not enough equity, or there is a promise of equity but no sense of commitment

2. No voice. Feedback and suggestions ignored

3. Possibly unreasonable expectations from management. How do you know it should only take 150 hours? See item 2.

4. Developer might not have confidence in management

Or, it's possible that the developer really is the wrong person for your startup. I would suggest some introspection before the "Come to Jesus" meeting. Maybe you can turn this around. Give the dev a chance to speak his/her mind and be open to what they have to say. Make your expectations clear, set a short term goal (x, y and z need to be done by Friday) that you both can agree on. If that milestone is met, great. If not, you have your answer and can move on knowing you did your part in good faith.

There are tons of posts on HN - I used "dick" just to grab attention and get responses. Did not mean any disrespect by it either. Last time I posted a thread that said something mild in title I got no responses.

I'm not referring to ALL programmers as dicks, I've just practically had it with him and he used to be a friend.

The most insightful opinion was that low hours per week = low motivation.

I'm being as honest and candid as possible. Sure there is emotion in this, this is our startup. I didn't have the money to bring him on full time and I don't think he would've worked for free either (or contribute funds needed for frontend dev).

> I used "dick" just to grab attention and get responses.

I am sure you know now but that was a bad move lol!.

Have you tried looking for another programmer? You can teach a lot of things in life but not passion and personality. If he lacks both of those fundamental traits (not skills), you should probably look for someone else.

Right now I wouldn't have a come to Jesus talk with your programmer, instead accept who he is. He is not going to change so make plans with that in mind. You can probably still launch and do what you need just look for someone else in the mean time.

alexwolfe, thank you. I don't want to leave him behind if we get funded, but i do need that passion and more compatible personality. Would you keep him on or hire back later?

I'm also worried if the system would fall apart? Can another developer relatively easy step in and learn the code...

If you want more commitment, you need to show more money/equity. Simples

Everything is relative. Food tastes better when it is cheaper. Work is more fun when you get paid more.

>The backend shouldn't be more than about 150 hours of true programming...

Someone who can't program knows how many hours it takes.

I can't wait for opportunity to do half the work and get 3-5%, where do I sigh up?

I wrote the title so I could get programmers to help me understand. I used to program years ago and I respect programmers and understand they are the lifeblood to any project.

I've asked only 1-5 hours per week from this individual. I've managed our frontend dev from an outsourced team in Poland and based on my same "can't program knows how many hours it takes" effectively hit the deadline/hours budget with only about 10-20 hours over.

It's not half the work. At the end of the day I have to sell it. In order to put more features and offer more we need to sell it. We need clients, programmers don't care about that. Which I understand, why should they it's not their job.

I wanted to offer equal equity the same as my partner and I, but due to personality differences I don't believe we can. My partner and I invested $30k into the startup including paying him on a contractual basis, how do you give someone equal equity after this?

With that low a rate of engagement, depending upon the topic material I'd be concerned with the amount of time it will take even a very competent developer to refresh their memory and get back "into the zone" on this particular product.

Sometimes, it's easier to have more work, simply because you can stay focused on it long enough to get more done and/or to think about it more thoroughly/deeply.

It's just one item, but perhaps take a look at whether you could adjust your development cycle for this fellow to accomodate more useful, efficient sustained bursts.

(Again, I don't know what the specific work in question is. The pertinence of my comment is therefore unclear.)

P.S. Your use of the word "dick" indicates that you are already emotionally engaged in this topic. Beware. No one's Mister Spock, but if you're letting your emotions lead, you may be heading for a mess. Also, if I were the developer and saw your use of the word "dick", our relationship would be over.

In short, you seem to be dragging some of your own baggage and/or faults into this.

1-5 hours a week is really little. On a level of commitment that only implies cursory level...or am I missing something?

Judging from this post I'm expecting a similar one titled "My co-founders/managers are dicks..." that links to this thread.