Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study
picower.mit.edu
picower.mit.edu
Because I hear this hypothesis come up from time to time--it's unlikely consciousness or long-term memory are maintained by e-fields generated in the brain, or that they require continuous electrical activity. Stark evidence against it come from ischemia studies. Ischemia usually accompanies serious underlying issues, so more controlled examples are easier to reason about: surgeons may use deep hypothermic circulatory arrest as protection for the brain in procedures with extended ischemia time requirements. In these cases, achieving electrocerebral silence (flat EEG) is one of the checklist items for the procedure. Clinical cases are worth reviewing for any hypothesis that suggests that long-term memory depends on continuous electrical activity* of neurons in the brain.
Since the events of ischemia, brain flatlining, and brain death are so closely linked in time, it's easy to conflate them. After a cold stop+start, the brain doesn't immediately jump back to normal function--there are a variety of processes that are worth studying better to get back to normal brain waves and brain function. Ischemia-related damage is often from a metabolic problems than from a discontinuity of electrical function. The reason for the cooling is to maintain the local energy reserves of the cells--when that is lost, the cells may have too much difficulty getting back to normal when blood is later reintroduced, and that's where you see brain damage or death. This kind of procedure is not without serious risk factors.
* Of course, electrical activity is needed for recall, but the point that I'm making is that the memory is later available for recall even after a period of discontinuity in the EEG.
Please note, this is the press release headline and sub-headline:
“Neurons are fickle. Electric fields are more reliable for information.”
“A new study suggests that electric fields may represent information held in working memory, allowing the brain to overcome “representational drift,” or the inconsistent participation of individual neurons”
A nearby lightning strike or overhead power line should also have some effect.
It would be quite amazing if the body were able to neutralize/counter such strong external electric fields.
Plenty of folks who do not consider themselves claustrophobic just completely fritz out inside an MRI tube. Could their usual ability to reason about and maintain composure be reduced by just such interference?
""" The researchers hypothesize that the field even appears to be a means the brain can employ to sculpt information flow to ensure the desired result. By imposing that a particular field emerge, it directs the activity of the participating neurons.
Indeed, that’s one of the next questions the scientists are investigating: Could electric fields be a means of controlling neurons?
“We are now using this work to ask whether information flows from the macroscale level of the electric field down to the microscale level of individual neurons,” Pinotsis says. “To make the analogy with the orchestra, we are now using this work to ask whether a conductor’s style changes the way an individual member of an orchestra plays her instrument.” """
He wrote a book about it. His marriage ended because of it (he had been a reliable emotional support for his wife while autistic), but he also became a lot closer to his son.
I think we’re only scratching the surface here, and even that, there are wide-ranging implications.
I predict if we're successful in creating general AI and/or artificial consciousness, we'll uncover a veritable zoo of different, altered states of consciousness much like how the standard model of particle physics revealed many more particles.
So without treading there, I am just going to say, I think this field-effect of neurons will lead to discoveries about field-effect of all cells, not just neurons; that consciousness is not exclusive to neurons; and how acupuncture (at a mechanical level) might work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmhsWAqP_0Y&t=4647s
I don't recall specific literature, but that might provide some names or searches to make.
This is new though (and revolutionary): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XheAMrS8Q1c
Regarding consciousness, I don't get why people who submit to consciousness being everywhere in the universe have problem with simply calling it the universe. It seems to make discussions much more productive.
There's a higher-level interpretation of what the term "state of consciousness" means to many people. Not a "state of the brain, like a state of a cellular automaton" but instead a section in the incredibly high-dimensional space of possible brain states that greatly facilitates going to other interesting positions, i.e. thoughts or experiences.
Well, it's not really a relic since it's actually the driving force behind our daily lives and society as a whole, sadly. They do more harm than good in a modern society with billions of individuals.
people need a better life so they don't get depressed in the first place.
"but we can't change their lives, so it's better for them to take antidepressants".
No! Nonsense!
People are depressed, because their lives suck for whatever reasons.
When they take antidepressants their lives still suck, but - like a slave! - they just learn to accept it as it is.
When you take a painkiller against pain, the pain and its source don't magically vanish. It's all still there, you just mask it out.
Are you feeling sad? Just take SOMA!
I imagine there's a thousand reasons for a state like depression to emerge — some, but not all of them external. I think the Venn diagram of people with depression and people whose "lives suck for whatever reason" is not a single circle.
You know, I think I actually agree with you on that point, despite the rest of your post. I won't address the rest of what you said, because it'd just get nasty.
The problem, in my opinion, can be described by Maslow's hierarchy of needs. In the US (probably elsewhere too, just speaking for myself), the layer below physiological needs, like clean air, shelter, clothing, etc, is: "Get a job." Without that, you're dead.
It wasn’t the article I read, but that should have a lot of leads.
[0]: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91mEWtZ15qL...
This makes some assumptions about the nature of real-time cognition though...it is possible that any given individual can do this for a given scenario, but the likelihood depends on many variables, many likely unknown.
I am not sure this is the convincing argument you think it is, however.
For example, the author herself is diagnosed with high-functioning autism. Her social impact on others is miminal enough where it qualifies for “high functioning”, but having executive dysfunction means she is highly dependent on someone in her life to help her. Our medical and social system does not provide adequate services because she is “high functioning”.
She then talked about other people with a different blend of autistic traits who are considered low functioning (high impact on neurotypical social interactions), but don’t have the executive dysfunction like the author. Her example was someone who is non-verbal, yet has a well-developed intellect.
I too, thought the idea that “autistic people are disabled because neurotypical people considers autism is a disability” was not very convincing. This author’s argument reframed it in a way that makes more sense to me, and that is, us neurotypicals are only seeing autism only from the lens of how autism impacts us, and we frame the discussion, diagnoses, and public policies along those lines.
And let me tell you, it's a WHOLE lot more bleak than that. The US medical system does not provide adequate services for ANYONE other than perhaps children (in some cases).
As soon as someone with a special need becomes an adult, nearly all public provided support is torn away. If you aren't 65, then when your child hits 26, they have no guarantee of being able to stay on your insurance. You might be able to make a deal with your employer and health insurance provider but that is by no means a given.
Now think of what that means in terms of estate planning.
It's possible for your child with special needs to qualify for social security and medicaid but their household income needs to be below poverty levels (with pretty crazy strict means testing). There's a reason so many people with mental disabilities often end up homeless.
The fact is, some individuals will need 24/7 care for the rest of their lives. However, because taxes and government are bad and "they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps" or whatever, the US and many state government are setup to instead worry about keeping them off the benches when they end up homeless.
Yes, I have a child with autism, and yes one thing that keeps me up at night is worrying what will happen to them after I'm gone.
But if everyone were autistic (as we define it today), and then someone was born that we would consider "neurotypical" (in this world, of course, they would be neurodivergent!), then that "non-autistic" person would probably be at a huge disadvantage (socially) in that society, so it'd be reasonable to call that person "disabled", even though we'd consider that person typical.
So yes, "disabled" is just a term we use to describe people in the minority, who have some sort of condition (physical or mental) that could confer a disadvantage upon them in our current society.
So to your statement:
> I too, thought the idea that “autistic people are disabled because neurotypical people considers autism is a disability” was not very convincing.
I've never really thought about it that way. My understanding would be more like "autistic people are disabled because their condition puts them at a disadvantage when interacting with the neurotypical world". And I think that jives with how we should think about disability: it's something that makes it harder for someone to interact (physically, socially, etc.) with the world as it is. We may try to make the world easier on disabled people -- ramps for those who cannot walk, audible signals for those who cannot see, attempts to change how we communicate with those who are neurodivergent -- but at the end of the day those people still have a disability, as there will always be parts of the world that they'll be unable to navigate the way a "non-disabled" person could.
Disability is a dis- (opposite of, or not) and an ability. If I cannot see, then vision is a disability. I wouldn't have it, but others would. Same if I was deaf, or had various types of mechanical physical problems.
Autism is different. Many types, depending on what's going on, isn't a dis-ability. Unlike me not having something that would allow me to perceive or do actions, this "disability" is instead of how other non-autistics treat us. I'm not lacking anything. Instead, I'm told I am defective because of the way neurotypicals treat us.
I use accurate language, and NT's assume that I'm talking in coded language... That's because NT's do just that. Or that I can hyperfocus. Most NT's cant. And worse yet, NT's make fun of us hyperfocusing. And being in IT, hyperfocusing is a powerful positive trait that puts me ahead of NTs.
Unlike other mechanical disabilities, this "disability" is primarily rooted in *others* treating us badly, over perceived badness.
As for me, I consider myself superior to that of most NT's. In fact, I feel sad for those humans who can't get the joy of deeply digging into an area of study, and then learning how other topics connect to it, and becoming an adept in a very short time. It might be an arrogant view, but I've seen NT's struggle with basic concepts time and again.
It seems a fair number of experts have well justified doubts based on studies of already deployed lower energy radiation.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/we-have-no...
> Citing this large body of research, more than 240 scientists who have published peer-reviewed research on the biologic and health effects of nonionizing electromagnetic fields (EMF) signed the International EMF Scientist Appeal, which calls for stronger exposure limits. The appeal makes the following assertions:
“Numerous recent scientific publications have shown that EMF affects living organisms at levels well below most international and national guidelines. Effects include increased cancer risk, cellular stress, increase in harmful free radicals, genetic damages, structural and functional changes of the reproductive system, learning and memory deficits, neurological disorders, and negative impacts on general well-being in humans. Damage goes well beyond the human race, as there is growing evidence of harmful effects to both plant and animal life.”
The scientists who signed this appeal arguably constitute the majority of experts on the effects of nonionizing radiation. They have published more than 2,000 papers and letters on EMF in professional journals.
> The World Health Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) classified RFR as "possibly carcinogenic to humans" in 2011. Last year, a $30 million study conducted by the U.S. National Toxicology Program (NTP) found “clear evidence” that two years of exposure to cell phone RFR increased cancer in male rats and damaged DNA in rats and mice of both sexes. The Ramazzini Institute in Italy replicated the key finding of the NTP using a different carrier frequency and much weaker exposure to cell phone radiation over the life of the rats.
> Since 5G is a new technology, there is no research on health effects, so we are “flying blind” to quote a U.S. senator. However, we have considerable evidence about the harmful effects of 2G and 3G. Little is known the effects of exposure to 4G, a 10-year-old technology, because governments have been remiss in funding this research. Meanwhile, we are seeing increases in certain types of head and neck tumors in tumor registries, which may be at least partially attributable to the proliferation of cell phone radiation. These increases are consistent with results from case-control studies of tumor risk in heavy cell phone users.
People living in cities (or anywhere really) don't complain much about the massive amount of exhaust from cars, which is definitely proven to be bad for everyone's health despite all attempts at reducing it. It's just there, we won't give up cars, so everyone just kind of ignores it.
So the car analogy seems a bad exemple to discourage progress.
Batteries are getting safer, too.
Perhaps realign your priorities to worry about something imminently catastrophic like climate change. And if it's theories you want to worry about, check this one out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_gun_hypothesis
If you're still worried about Wifi, then I don't know what to tell you.
If consciousness is not exclusive to neurons, then how much affect does the consciousness have on shaping the body … and how much does the body shape the mind?
Wow, it really happened.
Wow in general.
Here's the story
Neurons communicate via electric signals. There are multiple reasonnable ways to implement a memory based on that substrate, but the interface is almost certainly going to be through axons.
There must be a way, whatever it may be, to query and to alter the brain's memory through its interface. We don't have to know precisely how the system works to predict that fuzzing the interface might result in adverse effects.
That remains true whether the underlying storage is in the field, in synapses, a more complicated change in gene expression, or some other property of the cell.
"Self-healing codes: How stable neural populations can track continually reconfiguring neural representations": https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2106692119
It came out about a month ago, and I've just started reading it. But it talks about neural drift, and they actually were able to create a model for it.
And in that release, it ends like this:
"Dr O’Leary, Associate Professor in the Department of Engineering, said the study emphasises the idea that “drift” may arise from continual learning.
“There is a huge unanswered challenge in artificial intelligence, namely the problem of building algorithms that can learn continually without corrupting previously learned information,” he said. “The brain manifestly achieves this, and this work is a step in the direction of finding algorithms that can do the same.”"
https://wyss.harvard.edu/news/mike-levin-on-electrifying-ins...
There are many people who did have permanent memory loss from various TBI (traumatic brain injury), especially gunshot wounds, and many who recovered theirs slowly.
Kind of like restoring data from an archive, or rebuilding a RAID array, as an analogy.
This month we are actually asked by NIH to have an interview program to talk with people who are interested in SRS, so in case you are interested in our project, you could schedule a 20-mins quick meeting with me at your convenience:
https://calendly.com/hao-jiang-1/nih-i-corp-customer-discove...
how resilient is the brain and it's surrounding casing to outside electromagnetic interference ?
can there one day be some jamming tool strong enough to just crash a brain without doing physical damage first ? where it would just brick a human, but a physician examining it would find relatively nothing wrong at the physical layer .
They found that there was an improvement in skill levels in the untrained person. Intriguing.
If you find the article, please post a link.
But very likely it does not replicate, or is a lot less impressive than tge headline makes it sound.
> Watch Nancy's brain get zapped with transcranial magnetic stimulation. Measuring neural activity (with fMRI, MEG, ERPs, etc) cannot tell you which brain regions or neural responses are necessary for a given aspect of perception or cognition. To find out if a region is necessary, you have to mess with it. One method to do this in humans is transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS).
http://nancysbraintalks.mit.edu/video/watch-nancys-brain-get...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimul...
Perhaps your “hypothetical” bioweapon is already being tested in the field.
https://www.gpb.org/news/2020/10/27/cia-officer-visits-mosco...
Havana sickness I think they are calling it if you wanna look up more.
The first paper, about predicting where eyes will point next, is based on actual data recorded by the experimenters from two monkeys. The authors of that paper report positive but narrow results. They write about simple visual target info persisting for a few seconds. The second paper re-analyzes that data and draws much broader conclusions, less well justified by the data.
No electric fields were actually measured in that work. They're being imputed from voltages from neuron probes and EEG pickups. So the statements about fields are somewhat iffy.
It's recently become possible to image electric fields.[3] NASA work in 2015. A field-effect transistor with an open gate is an electric field sensor, and an array of them is an imager. A linear array was constructed and scanned mechanically to 2D image various objects, including a human. That paper has what is claimed to be the first image of the electric field of a human. Resolution was low, but it works. Might be useful for scanners at checkpoints and such, they claim.
So the technology exists to start to measure such fields directly. With enough interest and money, someone could probably construct an IC with a large array of open gate FETs and the readout circuitry to get an image from them. It's a non-intrusive passive sensor, which is nice for human experimentation. If there's anything going with the brain's electric field at high resolution or high frequency, it should be possible to pick that up. It's not clear how useful this is, but the electronics part looks possible.
[1] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1741-2552/aa5a3e
[2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S105381192...
[3] https://sma.nasa.gov/docs/default-source/News-Documents/elec...
An MRI scan could affect it depending on the frequency? Perhaps a minor, temporary, drop in cognition/memory recall?
You would have to conduct a study specifically for that.
Looks interesting, thanks!
This makes me sleep a bit better, I think.
If all our memories are stored in “RAM” and never flushed to “disk”, we may never find evidence of “disk”.
Did I just debunk the paper?
The illusion of a stable single entity emergent from the constant flux of billions of individual living units linked through trillions of connections is in my opinion the answer to the question of consciousness (and also an answer to the question 'can machines ever be conscious', which is without a doubt - yes).
It might also pose the question then, could humanity as a whole - as a global connection of billions of individuals - be thought of as a conscious entity? Well, maybe not - where's the stable field?
Point in fact: as we are now hundreds of years into medical research and we still can't figure out how the brain stores memory. Or what physical structure a memory even is. And I am supposed to believe this all happened by accident? Who is driving the upward development of life if the physical universe tends toward chaos?
I'd start in the gut, considering the cells are quite similar.
I reversed a life-long case of Prosopagnosia after doing some n-of-1 experiments with replenishing my gut bacteria, so it seems plausible to me that losing intestines could impact this.
I also have a friend had her intestines removed due to Crohn's disease. She had an infection from the surgery that put her in a coma she woke up unable to picture things in her head. Hard to say what caused it.
Disagree. Look at our solar system or any other planet. There is no life anywhere. This beautiful blue planet is brimming with life.
Yes we are screwing our planet but that is because we as collective have not become fully conscious about it. There were horrific things done in past by humanity but once a sufficient amount of population reached that point of consciousness where we recognise something is bad we shutdown those things.
I know we are screwing this planet bad but life on this planet continues and it's been this way for millions of years.
Yes, we've defined human evolution as "upward" as opposed to other life on Earth, but that's purely our self-description, not anything inherently true about the universe.
> Who is driving the upward development of life ...
This is begging the question. It presumes a both a who and an intention.
Also, "upward" is an odd take -- spiders / sharks / humans are all equally evolved in that they can trace their lineage to a common ancestor and have been evolving all that time. It seems upward only if one is thinking like that cliched monkey -> caveman -> human illustration.
> ... the physical universe tends toward chaos
It tends toward increasing entropy, not chaos. For sure, there are local pockets of organization, but they are all temporary.