Saudi Arabia puts 81 to death in its largest mass execution
apnews.com
apnews.com
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60714086
Raif Badawi is a blogger who was charged of "insulting Islam through electronic channels". He was sentenced of seven years in prison, torture and 600 lashes.
Of course no human being could take 600 lashes in one go, they just gave him the first 50 and dragged him back to jail to wait to be able to carry out the rest of the sentence. Due to poor health condition, they were never able to.
Let it be a good reminder of how archaic and retrograde the justice system is in Saudi Arabia.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/04/mohamme...
For the self and allies there is only: - Rule of law only until it comes in the way of Self interest -- in contention, self interest always trumps.
With this rule-set a lot of things make sense.
As it is, we'll need to settle for exporting what we can't use very well and importing what we can make better use of, until we have sufficient battery capacity tied to grids and EVs are plentiful and cheap.
That said, without an absurdly massive investment in refineries, we would still be exporting a lot of it and importing much of what we actually refined.
Feds actively restrict the domestic energy industry which increases demand for Saudi energy. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/biden-administration-pausing...
No real surprise, as Biden promised to restrict USA energy while campaigning. https://joebiden.com/9-key-elements-of-joe-bidens-plan-for-a...
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter, Except for those who return repenting before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
— Qur'an, Sura 5, ayat 33 & 34[8]
That's incredibly vague and appears to be made for abuse of interpretation.One could argue this is true for most (if not all) religious texts
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-execution-apostasy/...
Laws there are, to put it politely, archaic. It should be acceptable to discuss the law in a hacker sense -- what are the rules, how are they broken, what are the security concerns etc. I've no interest in diminishing other cultures, but any law of any land is ripe for review.
In this situation, we collectively look the other way because oil.
Yeah, but when we're discussing a quote he made he's knd of the only authority.
I don't get your argument. "MBS said x, he was probably talking about this vague passage." "No, he was probably talking about this clear one." "Yeah but he's the worst so who cares what he's talking about." OK? I wasn't defending the guy.
> "Yeah but he's the worst so who cares what he's talking about."
It's not that he's horrible, its that he is incentivized to misrepresent things if it makes him look better. It's a natural assumption with any person in power.
Islam used to have a very solid legal system but it has not developed past the late Khilafa ages.
One you have a religious manuscript, and submissive population, you can pull off whatever shit you want and you can always find an obscure religious passage to support your claim. MBS is such a disgrace for all humanity, not just Islam, and I dare wish to see Hijaz is outside the control of Aal-Saaud.
Well what constitutes war against GOD, referred to as "Allah" here, and Mohammed (my choice of words reflect that I consider him a real prophet, but specific to Islam, not Christianity, it's subjective like fame) is not elaborated on, probably in another section it goes into detail, and plus you have to use this old, outdated tech that isn't compatible with anything these days, "judgment." Nobody talks about it much anymore.
As for the specific punishments for that harm, it's not vague at all. Execution, OK so in Arabia that means you put their neck on a chopping block, made of wood for the same reason as a kitchen cutting board, a man with a mask whose job title is "executioner" walks up with an axe I think it is, I don't know I haven't watched them live but I know in Saudi Arabia it happens in the public square, some same place every time, everyone can go watch; the masked man lifts his axe, well from that point it's too graphic even textually for HN. Then crucifixion, it's the destiny of Christ, for good reason because that was the most feared form of torture and death in the Roman Empire. Then finally, the other punishments are lighter, and the opposite-sides rule for severing hands and feet is a way to be merciful so the punished blasphemer can walk on crutches at very least, not be absolutely crippled. Exile sounds light but it's rough, most people end up at the bottom of society if they're exiled, second class citizens and often slaves. Obviously much better though. So that's where judgment comes in, this isn't digital, it's much more consuetudinary. The judge can decide what the punishment will be commensurately with the unique nuance of the transgression.
I hope that clarifies the vagueness.
I didn't see any "/s" in your post so I'm somewhat confused.
Discussion of religion gets dangerous because it seems to morph into attacks. I've no interest in that but I do in laws in that name because then it's literally my (and everybody else's) business.
The key issue is melding of Church and State -- not a good idea according to the founders of the United States. Giving the Church the power of the State is a recipe for tyranny.
While it doesn't get enough attention, there's an active effort for the United States to do this very thing. We need to have civil dialog for the repudiation of that but avoid framing it in an attack on religion itself.
If you read this and disagree, go ahead and down-vote this but please explain why so perhaps we can someday find agreement.
Pervasive use of the death penalty is obviously an issue but far from their biggest sin. Execution as a form of punishment is pretty much completely pointless.
Execution isn't very good at deterrence and obviously is antithetical to rehabilitation. However execution happens to be exceptionally effective at incapacitation; a criminal cannot re-offend if he's dead. And of course, much of the public support for execution is also motivated by retribution.
On the topic of retribution, I want to be clear that I don't support the death penalty, but nevertheless I think a bit of retribution in the justice system plays a roll in suppressing vigilantism. If the government doesn't pay at least a little lip service to retribution, I think you'll have more people taking matters into their own hands.
But yes, I oppose the death penalty, particularly in America, because I don't trust the government to get it right.
Innocent people have been put to death before.
Multiple cuts would be horrific.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_Un...
That isn't to say the US is better, worse, or just as bad. Just something to compare it to.
Edit much later: you know what, I was wrong to comment this on its own. There's a lot more nuance to this and it's not a fair comparison at all. Those that called me out on this are in the right.
> The US has killed thousands of “militants” (and many people who were certainly innocent) with drone strikes in places where we’re not engaged in active conflict and without due process.
If you want to call those "war casualties", then those war casualties look a whole lot like executions.
And if they weren't war casualties on account of not being in a war zone, then they are simply executions.
But that might be tainted by my personal values. I personally value a legal system that refrains from the potential of killing an innocent person.
[0]: https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence/execute...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country#...
The list is growing at a rate of about 1 country per year, which, if continued, would mean that the 21st century would be the last in which countries formally kill their own citizens.
It is mere coincidence that you respect one country's due process and don't respect another country's due process.
Most places have non-arbitrary paths to punishment or any state actions, codified somewhere. And our media and pop culture just doesn't acknowledge that.
The similarities are greater than the dissimilarities.
Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship run by tyrants who order members of their own family kidnapped abroad, journalists murdered then cut up their bodies to hide the crime, and imprison then extort leading businessmen to consolidate power and money in their hands. They have far more in common with Putin’s Russia than the US.
The US is a long way from that, whatever its flaws (and there are many flaws, chief amongst them making alliances with brutal dictators like the Saudis).
Extraordinary rendition? Foreign policy in most places is different from domestic policy.
The similarities are greater than the dissimilarities.
The sentencing is so harsh for anyone demanding trial and losing that it's mostly a paper right at this time. It does give people the warm fuzzy feeling of justice and correctness though.
If you're used to the EU justice or penal systems (very far from perfect and sometimes not even good, mind you), looking at the US systems must feel similar to a US citizen looking at SA justice - very lopsided, barbaric or cruel, disproportionate, and nothing close to fair.
[0] https://innocenceproject.org/guilty-pleas-on-the-rise-crimin...
> The primary source of law is the Islamic Sharia derived from the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah (the traditions of the Prophet). Saudi Arabia is unique among modern Muslim states in that Sharia is not codified and there is no system of judicial precedent, giving judges the power to use independent legal reasoning to make a decision. Saudi judges tend to follow the principles of the Hanbali school of jurisprudence (fiqh) found in pre-modern texts and noted for its literalist interpretation of the Qur'an and hadith.
> Because the judge is empowered to disregard previous judgments (either his own or of other judges) and may apply his personal interpretation of Sharia to any particular case, divergent judgments arise even in apparently identical cases, making predictability of legal interpretation difficult.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Legal_system
Welp... I guess Saudi Arabia is off my bucket list
But the point is that many people respect the system they are raised under, and are aware of others systems. Its not a comparison of "the US to Saudi Arabia" its an acknowledgment of the nation state reality.
Sometimes cultural relativism gets it right and opens our eyes to our own inadequacies, but this isn’t one of those times. Saudi justice is light-years (or maybe centuries) from US justice.
Whew ... there's dozens of convicts on the death row that are presumably innocent. Even if some of them get acquitted at some point, having spent 20 years of your life behind bars not knowing whether the state is going to murder you for something you didn't do is not that far from barbaric.
So ... like another guy said, you're just accustomed to the set of rules of the environment where you belong, in the same way as a Saudi could think of executions as a regular thing (bc, well... they are).
nearly all of us here on this forum would expect to get due process, but the due process for the people who wind up on death row is often a joke.
Friendly reminder that the primary distinction between groups in that region is whether you have a nation state already, or merely aspire to have one.
We demonize the people that merely aspire to have one, and their practices like the beheadings. It is useful to acknowledge that they are the same practices of the ones that achieve sovereign immunity. It usually comes down to the underlining belief system, as they overlap with a nearby sovereign party. Western media isn't that discerning, but it could be.
It’s worth mentioning that shiites have been, and still are killing sunnis in Iraq, Iran, Syria and Lebanon, in massive numbers. Kids are not spared here.
Seeing all the death and destruction committed by the shiites, Iran and its allies like Russia in the Middle East, I’ve learnt to take what often appears to be pro-Iranian propaganda against Saudi Arabia with a grain of salt, and you should too. There is a lot to say about what Iran alone does to its sunni population.
This issue requires us to look at it from a nuanced perspective lest we do many victims in these countries injustice.
Edit: Removed an example of oppression which I unfortunately have no reference for anymore. If you want to see what’s going on, material is readily available on the internet. Search for example for “Hezbola”.
Syrians can be Shiites too .. and how do you know the threats were not directed at them for being, say, foreigners, which is unfortunately a common reaction to refugees around the world.
But for this specific example, that’s all I have from memory, the details are lost together with the video. Many of these disappear from Youtube because of Youtube’s strange ToS and flagging system. Facebook and Twitter also deleted a lot of documentation of the war.
In any case, there are still plenty of material out there. I’m not saying anything that’s not already well-established, that there is plenty of oppression against sunnis by the shia. Look at the Syrian regime, Irans involvment in various war-torn countries, the terror-organization Hezbola, shia militias in Iraq. The evidence is already out. Denying this is more absurd than denying Russias aggression against Ukraine, if we judge by the amount of testimonies and footage there is out there, and for how long the conflict has been going on.