To avoid Finland’s tax a 1,000HP imported Hennessey RAM is limited to 55MPH
thedrive.com
thedrive.com
This is also to avoid taxes.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2021/06/03/ford-...
This kind of thing has been around 50 years at least :)
https://www.gearpatrol.com/style/a715423/converse-chuck-tayl...
Compare it to similar rent-seeking taxes on land ownership (i.e. property taxes), which affect wealthier people more able to afford the tax.
I know when I was a college student, affording the registration and bare-bone insurance payments on my 25 year old honda was actually pretty non-trivial. If I couldn't afford gas on a particular month, I could find creative ways to ride-share / take public transit (sometimes) / not drive / etc. But that didn't do ANYTHING to my registration payment.
Really it's this that ought to be changed. Although I realise that's a much bigger task.
https://codes.findlaw.com/nc/chapter-20-motor-vehicles/nc-ge...
Explanation here:
https://thecampingadvisor.com/nc-weighted-tag-cost-requireme...
Oh wait, is it because the tax is “weighted” based on the weight of the vehicle?
Edit: the weighted plate is for commercial use and over 9000lbs total (vehicle included). This can also cover non-commercial if you're hitting that weight and not hauling a camper. There are carveouts, but the tax increases with the weight of the expected max tow. The state charges a road use fee instead of a state tax on registration.
Ongoing construction works, local municipalities that want to reduce noise, others want to reduce traffic jams, end up with enough places limited between 80 and 100 km/h.
Speeding isn't dangerous. Stopping is.
[1] https://www.vejdirektoratet.dk/sites/default/files/2021-12/D... (in danish)
EDIT: 43%, not 46%
Maybe OP is confused about the rules on unlimited roads like some German autobahns, there is indeed reduced payout above 130 km/h. But insurance not covering anything above 100 km/h is ridonculous
See: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/verkeersregels/vraa...
Bij 50 over de snelheid ben je de lul. Hoe dat zit als je in Duitsland 150 rijd overdag waarbij in Nederland de limiet van 100 dan geld zou ik niet uitproberen.
[0] https://www.allianzdirect.de/kfz-versicherung/zahlt-die-vers...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring#Nordschleife_publi...
He did end of selling it for much more than he bought it for.
Being a Hennessey product, this probably comes with a flashed PCM and the handheld tuner for it. I wouldn't be surprised if the manual came with a section stating something like, "this setting right here will adjust the speed limiter on your vehicle. It would be VERY ILLEGAL to use this feature to CHANGE THE TOP SPEED LIMITER to beyond 55MPH. Please don't use this feature if you're in the EU."
- Tyres have well-defined speed ratings
- It's not illegal to drive >120mph. It's only illegal to do it on public roads.
Amstrad exported the 64K CPC 464 to loads of countries, and it did quite well. But Spain wanted to promote home-grown micros, and in an act of protectionism, applied a special tax to any computer with 64K or less of RAM.
Amstrad MD Alan Sugar directed his engineers to solder a completely non-functional 8K RAM chip to the mainboard, changed the name of the Spanish version to the 472, and skipped the tax.
These Are The Cars Most Commonly Owned By People With DUIs https://jalopnik.com/these-are-the-cars-most-commonly-owned-...
Edit: 1.8lbs/mile of you prefer.
Traditional "supercar" sports cars are rarely driven and especially not on daily basis. Partly because of their value, but also because they tend to be spectacularly impractical and are usually uncomfortable to boot. Can't even fit your groceries in them half the time.
This monster pickup truck is actually practical as an everyday driver.
(I'm not saying that 1000HP is something people actually need; I'm just saying - you could drive it to the store and carry your groceries home with it comfortably)
It's not even good for groceries, for reasons anyone who has actually bought groceries can readily fathom. You want your groceries in a backseat or in a trunk, not in the cab of this stupid testosterone-poisoning-advertising machine.
In any warm climate, you don't want your groceries out in the hot sun while you drive home, and in any cold climate, you don't want them damaged by that weather, either.
A Honda Civic is 20x more practical and carries 2.5x more passengers and gets 5x better mileage.
If you want to roll coal, fine, but just admit it. Let's not pretend this vehicle is in ANY way "practical". It's just not.
I think the Rivian is a much flashier truck though. It has a better 0-60 time than the un-capped Hennessey RAM, and is less than half the price.
Neither are practical for "truck stuff" (the Rivian has a small bed, and depreciation on the Hennessey is going to dwarf the value of most loads). At least the rivian is solid around town and for offroading/camping.
If you want to roll coal, you can go die in a fire. Seriously. You're assaulting everyone around you with carcinogens and cardiovascular poisons.
I'd ask how it's legal, but it's not (at least around here). A better question is why the law isn't enforced.
It's not even good for groceries, for reasons anyone who has
actually bought groceries can readily fathom
Sorry, no.Like many pickup trucks sold in America (not sure about elsewhere) the TRX has two rows of interior passenger seats and seats four people. The back seats fold away and create a large interior cargo space if desired.
Additionally, many folks with pickup trucks have tonneau covers on their cargo beds for everyday use when they're not transporting anything really big -- at that point the cargo bed is essentially a traditional car trunk/boot.
Such vehicles are popular with the significant portion of folks who "need a truck a few times a year, but want something that can be used as an everyday vehicle because they don't want to own two separate vehicles."
A Honda Civic is 20x more practical and carries 2.5x more
passengers and gets 5x better mileage.
Yeah, again, sorry. The TRX seats 4 people.Do I wish people would drive Civics (or smaller) vehicles instead of these monster trucks? Yes.
Do I personally drive a much smaller, hybrid vehicle similar to the Civic? Yes.
Have I been working remotely for 4+ years, partly for environmental reasons, to avoid driving in the first place? Yes.
If you want to roll coal, fine, but just admit it. Let's not
pretend this vehicle is in ANY way "practical". It's just not.
I tried to be clear in my post.I do not think anybody should be using such a monstrous vehicle for mundane everyday tasks like transporting groceries. Obivously it is overkill of the highest order and a bit of a menace.
But you certainly could use it for that. In that sense it is eminently practical.
That's what makes vehicles like this such a potential environmental nightmare. Unlike a lot of other vehicles in the "$100,000 / 1000HP" neighborhood, people might actually use this monster as an everyday driver rather than a "garage queen."
Amazing.
The Maverick should be the new version of that... if it actually offered any practical options!
Yup, whenever I see one here (in Germany) I wonder why not go the Full Size Pickup way? I mean the modern Rangers are as tall as my RAM 1500 anyway and only a little narrower. But narrow enough to make them look awkward. It's like only 20cm I would guess.
I also wonder why no manufacturer brings a full size pickup model to the Euro market. At this point mid sized trucks aren't that much smaller and me daily driving an imported RAM 1500 I can say that German cities/roads aren't too small for full size pickups. (DHL Delivery vans are larger yet still fit everywhere).
Oh and the really cool mid sized trucks aren't here either. (I'd kill for a TRD Tacoma).
There's no special technology in EU cars that makes them get better mileage than their US counterparts. Europeans just tend to drive smaller vehicles, many of which wouldn't pass crash tests in the US. For example, the Smart Fortwo had to be increased in length to pass US crash tests.
1. https://www.businessinsider.com/why-european-gas-mileage-rat...
2. https://theicct.org/press-release-gap-between-reported-and-a...
> many of which wouldn't pass crash tests in the US. For example, the Smart Fortwo had to be increased in length to pass US crash tests.
The smart isn't really a common car in Europe. As for crash tests, some US vehicles wouldn't pass EU tests either. The two regulations test for different properties, and manufacturers optimize for that.
As for actual safety, trafic fatality is equivalent or better in Europe, especially for people not inside a car.
I can't wait for the day people will have decided they need a vehicle so heavy that an airliner mpg actually sounds reasonable for a car.
Airliners are pretty darn fuel-efficient, more efficient than even many lightweight cars. (Assuming you don't leave seats empty, that is.)
As of 2017 [1]: "Domestic airliner can get anywhere from 45.5 to 77.6 miles per gallon per passenger, with an industry average of about 51 miles per gallon of fuel per passenger."
For comparison, the average car gets something like 25-30 MPG, so airliners are some 2x more efficient.
[1] https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/ask-mr-green/whats-better-...
A starlet from 1998 gets better fuel economy already. And so does a Volvo v40 2.0 turbo. I believe a 1800kg modern day M3 sports car already gets better fuel economy than a plane if you seat it with 3 people.
If you just like the look of the truck, you could buy a RAM 3500 and install the liftkit and bumper yourself for less than half the price.
This is clickbait. The article takes some technically possible bizarre situation and presents it as though this is something that happens regularly.
Does this mean that no vehicle in this weight class is permitted to go over 55 mph anywhere in the EU, regardless of tax and whether the vehicle is foreign or domestic?
It also needs to be equipped with driving time measurement equipment
More pain than gain I say...
However, there seems to be a "M1" class for passenger vehicles that isn't weight restricted.
My understanding is that the truck cannot be classified as a commercial vehicle (too heavy) so they classify it as a N2 truck to save tax, but they could presumably also classify it as M1 (paying the tax but avoiding the need for the speed limiter). I read it as "commercial vehicle" being a third class that would normally be used as a way to bypass the tax if the vehicle wasn't too heavy for that.
But then you can take the same truck and change the papers so you limit its max total weight to 3.5 tons and you can drive as fast as you want with your normal driver's license.
[0]: https://bookshop.org/books/there-are-no-accidents-the-deadly...
[1] https://explorer-magazin.com/fahrzeuge/landrover-kooperation...
The way that VAT is implemented is that every intermediate pays VAT, but gets a credit for the VAT that they paid.
Obviously things can go wrong, like they did here, but it's not worth discarding the very useful tool of specialized taxes due to cases like this.
Ideally the tax on non-primary homes would be so onerous that people would sell their extra homes to people who do not have homes and that would cause home ownership to increase, taking pressure off of the rental market and driving down prices.
Apartments are supposed to be affordable homes for young adults starting their lives out, not permanent living situations for anyone not financially established as solidly in the middle class or above.
You could easily add waivers for section 8 and military rentals to ensure that all sections of the population would be accounted for, and the tax wouldn't affect apartments and condos, just single homes and duplexes/triplexes/quadplexes that are either being held empty as value stores or used for rental income generators by their owners.
I would also say that once homelessness drops to lower than 1 in 10,000 (a little more than half of it's current number) you could waive 80% of the tax with the caveat that should homelessness increase above that number the full tax would come back immediately. That would provide a strong incentive for property management companies to keep rents low enough for poor people to afford them.
But seriously, the point of this Finnish tax is to internalize externalities of vehicles that contribute excessively to global warming. Even if there's some loopholes it's still shaping consumer behavior by making you jump through them... and if the jump is too easy, they can just continue making the loopholes smaller.
Thinking this tax is for meeting the government's budget is missing the point. It would serve its purpose just as well if you were required to burn the money instead of giving it to the government.
Hardly. The taxes are based on the value of the vehicle, not emissions.
Also, the issue is just as much 'how the taxes are used' then anything else.
Hennessey Performance is an American car modification company run by a man with questionable ethics.
https://www.thedrive.com/content-b/message-editor%2F16467767...
Original factory Lambo work: 'Italian factory weld/lead gore (Lamborghini Miura)' https://imgur.com/gallery/IMHTxIq
But due to the low tax rate on computer components at that time significantly drove the price of the item lower.
Probably not, but you can dream.
That risk is mainly significant when there's a "general speed-check raid" going on, the periodical drives the police undertakes to remind motorists that speed limits exist and should be obeyed. If you're just going between 55 and the speed limit in this thing, it's not all that likely to attract the attention of any passing traffic plice officer so they even aim their radar at it, since it looks pretty much like any other (penis-envy variant of) pickup truck.
Some US companies were doing that by e.g. adding pointless seats. One that ripped the seats back out after import got fined (many, many years later), another one was leaving the (barely usable) seats in for the owners to rip out and IIRC got away with it.
Because paying a mechanic + some paper pushers a few k (at most) at either end is cheaper than 120k in tax...
I'm not familiar with Hennessey products, but this is how Ford Performance handles their "factory" supercharger kits. The tuner isn't included with the kit, but owners expected to have one.
Most cops won’t pull you over for an exhaust that is too loud unless you keep blasting it in your neighborhood enough for neighbors to complain. And none of them will ever check your fueling system. Manufactures of these devices sell them as “non-public use only”, knowing full well you won’t race your 800 lb Harley. The saving grace is that most people don’t do this. Only a few people buy motorcycles (or high performance cars) and of those only a few modify them to this extent.
Well sometimes there is a small exception. If you live in California then you swap the stock parts back on to the car to pass the emissions test. (Note: Not because the tailpipe emissions are higher in any way, but because the state bans aftermarket parts).
Do they make tires that size that are rated higher? And of course, do you want to take something like that (aero, celery of gravity, etc) faster than that?
Yeah, weird. Maybe it was for the "celery of gravity". ;-)
We should be looking to reduce polluting vehicles like these and also the fetishisation of cars in general.
The weighted average price per ton for carbon credits from forestry and land-use projects that reduce emissions or remove carbon from the atmosphere has been on a steady upward path, rising from $4.33 per credit in 2019 to $4.73 per credit so far in 2021, with a spike to $5.60 per credit in 2020.
So, spend $35/year or if you want to get fancy, the cost of 1 tank of gas per year to offset your carbon footprint from driving and enjoy a guilt-free year.
Or we could fold that cost into gas, if you use 1 tank a week, 10/gallons a tank, that would be less than $0.02 as a carbon tax credit.
I would be all for that.
But, if you raised the price of gas $0.50 and funneled all of that money into funding carbon capture industries, I would also be all for that, and at that price point more people would search for public transportation or purchase EV's so that is a double win.
But then again, these taxes would disproportionately affect the middle and lower classes in suburban and rural communities so that would make life far more difficult on people who already have it tough enough and manufacturers would probably shovel any taxes you put on them directly to the consumers as well, so I would say it's almost as if there isn't a single simple fix to the issue and only a multipronged approach that takes into account dozens of moving variables rolled out over time is the only viable solution.
Pulling CO2 out of the atmosphere might or might not be a good idea. But that's a cost/benefit analysis that's independent of the carbon tax take.
Come on. Gas taxes are hilariously regressive. The people—ALL the people—who can afford this kind of dumbass vehicle and who are willing to commit the offense of buying and operating it will never, ever be affected or restricted or motivated by any piddly gas taxes.
So, no. No. Of course it's not actually accomplished by gasoline taxes. That's a fantasy.
If you made gas taxes 1-2 orders of magnitude more progressive than they are right now, that would be a tiny start.
Just so we're clear, punishing them would involve, say, jailing them or confiscating all but $50k or so of their net worth and then making them work at Burger King for a month or two. That would be punishing.
Asking for a more progressive and fair tax system does not "punish" anyone.
As with most ad valorem (or fixed per unit) consumption taxes, because consumption as a share of income declines with increasing income, so total and marginal tax share drops with greater income.
Calling these taxes regressive just a socially acceptable way for people to say “I don’t want to shoulder any burden for this”.
Yes, sales taxes and VATs are regressive, though in many cases that is made somewhat more nuanced by selective exclusion of basic necessities on which the poor focus a disproportionate share of consumption; when that's done, they are progressive at the low end shifting to regressive higher. This kind of tax that puts it's heaviest burden somewhere between the above average income segment of the working class and the petit bourgeois middle class is somewhat more popular than straight regressive taxation (when you take into account payroll taxes and favorable taxation on LTCG and certain other income disproportionately concentrated among the very rich, US taxes on income also largely break this way).
> Calling these taxes regressive just a socially acceptable way for people to say “I don’t want to shoulder any burden for this”.
Er, no. I actually favor heavier gas taxes (or carbon taxes) as a pigovian tax, but I think that the overall system of taxation should be asjusted so the net effect is not to to decrease progressivity (which, given that I have above average income, probably means I shoulder the burden of that as well as of the additional gas tax, so really the opposite of what you suggest). An individual tax desirable for other reasons being regressive is an addressivle issue.
If you want to project your biases against poor people onto others, fine, but let's be clear that that's what you are doing.
Read my comment again. I didn’t say they weren’t.
> If you want to project your biases against poor people onto others
Are you calling my criticism of armchair economists a bias against poor people? Do you know that most armchair economists are not poor people?
But in any case, I don't think it matters too much whether individual taxes are progressive or regressive or flat. That consideration only really makes a difference for the overall tax system. Individual taxes can be designed to be as efficient as possible, as long as the overall system is as progressive/flat/regressive as desired.
The people who can afford 272k for a car are a vanishingly small percentage of the world population. In this category of people wasting money, this is one of the least impactful activities. For comparison, they might also consider chartering a jet to the Alps for skiing, renting a yacht for a week in the Mediterranean, going on African safari, etc.
> So, no. No. Of course it's not actually accomplished by gasoline taxes
You do know there is a point where gas taxes can be raised high enough that it just pays for full carbon offset/capture, right? At that point you’re just having a fit that rich people exist, which has nothing to do with solving climate change.
Consider what job it's doing, not what arbitrary market category it fits in.
I agree this is a thing that can be done, but I disagree it's a job that it's doing - because stating its a job usually means there is some ultimate purpose to it.
Also a more specific issue here is car manufacturing itself is like 25% of the carbon footprint of a vehicle, so regardless of use it's still doing damage.
[1] e.g. a solution may be that we take public transport, or micromobility, or relocate so we don't need to drive as far, or videoconference, or any number of other things that examine the full range of options we have to reach the goal.
Just do a gas tax (or carbon tax) and be done with it. If you are worried about some specific use cases, just give those deserving people money so they can pay their taxes with that.
No it doesn’t. That is what authoritarians do under the guise of climate change when they just want control.
Climate change demands we reduce CO2 in aggregate. It is better to tax all gas equally to force a reduction in its use and keep increasing the tax until its emissions are negligible. No exceptions, full stop.
Being faster? Being more fun? Giving you social status in your in-group?
Internalizing the externalities refers adding an additional cost to the purchase price to cover for the externality. In the example above for the pollution machine, this could be a carbon tax or a carbon offset.
I don't get that? If do adopt a carbon tax, then the rich guy who wants to drive a performance car pays a lot more, than the poor person who take the bus.
> If you have a high polluting performance vehicle, maybe it can be restricted in a normalizing fashion when used for transportation or recreation within some arbitrary boundary, like speed limits to some extent [...]
That sounds awfully intrusive and full of loopholes, that only people who can afford expensive lobbyists and lawyers can exploit.
> [...] but some people shouldn't have the ability to just disregard things in daily in daily life that the place has democratically decided upon only because the money is available.
How would paying your democratically-decided-on carbon tax be the same as disregarding anything?
But the poor guy with a beat 20 year old car in a badly insulated rental pays more than the rich guy with his Tesla and energy neutral villa.
That's just needless paperwork, and never catches all use cases. Eg the guy who walks doesn't get an electric car subsidy. Or the guy who practices hypermiling on his ICE, vs the guy who drives his ICE like a maniac. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermiling
Much easier to just apply an emission tax (or a cap-and-trade program) and let people figure it out by themselves without extra paperwork and government favouritism.
Unless you’re suggesting we tax the cheap option, in which case you’re saying the same thing.
If you want to do redistribution to help the poor, the impact of the overall tax system is important. You don't need to make every single tax progressive.
Individual taxes, especially sin taxes, should be designed to do their job as efficiently as possible.
Is there a cost? I would say it is priceless - because we do not have any mechanism to funnel that money into undoing the CO2. And no, planting trees are not the opposite of taking oil from deep underground. Once that oil is out it remains in the above-surface carbon cycle. While it is underground it would never even be part of it. So any price would be made up - and just funneled to some interest group. The "compensation" does not actually compensate anything. This is the danger of only thinking in "money". I paid, problem magically solved!
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-food-climate-obesity/obes...
Hobbies that harm other people by polluting are not a "necessary evil". They are not necessary.
For example, in many cities in the world it's illegal to have a bonfire because it makes people (unwillingly) inhale toxic particulate.
Maybe we also accept that some limits can't be surpassed, at least not at an acceptable cost. In my opinion, the world cannot sustainably support so many people. So artificial limits we like to defeat, natural limits are much tougher.
The carrying capacity of earth is likely hundreds of billions of humans, if we were to set our mind to it.
Just to concentrate on food alone: we are barely harvesting anything from the oceans. Even on land, using greenhouses everywhere would give us vastly more agricultural yield.
We are not using greenhouses everywhere right now, because that's a huge capital investment; and given current food prices, it's generally not worth it. But if push came to shove, we could totally do it. (Just like we _could_ totally get rid of fossil fuels, if we really had to and run everything on wind and solar. It's just not economically viable to do that right now.)
There's lots more techniques you can do to produce more calories. For example fusion power could help a lot to power lots of artificial lighting in vertical farms, and to purify sea water. (And even without fusion power, we could generate lots and lots of power from fission with current technology. It's just unpopular.)
> Maybe we also accept that some limits can't be surpassed, at least not at an acceptable cost.
I guess you would say that the suggestions I made above fall under the second clause of unacceptable costs?
Do you mean economic costs or some kind of ethical or moral or metaphysical costs?
I can see how some people might be queasy about putting fission reactors everywhere. But I don't really see anything against Dutch-style greenhouses apart from economic costs?
Just to cite one of of your statements, the oceans have been decimated with countless species extinct and many more on their way there due to overfishing and habitat destruction. The oceans are also filled with industrial chemicals, plastics and have numerous massive "dead zones" due to nitrogen run off from the huge factory farms we run to sustain our massively overpopulated planet.
The suggestion that the earth isn't overpopulated, let alone the idea that the earth could support "hundreds of billions of people" is beyond absurd. We are losing biodiversity among animals, insects, fish and every other form of non human life due directly to massive overpopulation. Saying this ignores the decimation of our ecosystem and the food web that has left our planet teetering on the brink.
However, there's vast patches out in the open ocean where almost nothing grows. Mostly because the areas with sunlight (at the top) are not where the minerals are that plants need to grow (mostly the sea floor). See eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fertilization for an overview.
If you mind putting fertilizer directly into the open ocean, someone more clever than me can probably work out a scheme for enclosing some water in a giant floating bag, and growing your stuff in there. (Or something much better than this.)
The Tragedy of the Commons. Note that cows and chickens are not endangered species, despite our vast consumption of them.
I've never seen anything that states that. Link? UN and others estimate 8-12 billion. And none of those estimates are accounting for sustainable population. You say 100s of billions, but with what quality of life? With scare resources comes conflict.
"we are barely harvesting anything from the oceans."
Most major fish stocks are down more than 90%. Farm raised means feed and and antibiotics. Sure we can increase stuff like seaweed consumption, but that's not very significant.
"Even on land, using greenhouses everywhere would give us vastly more agricultural yield."
What are those greenhouses going to be made out of? Petroleum based plastics, glass (CO2 for melting), or cellulose/corn plastic (that requires chemicals that aren't environmentally friendly)? Where are we getting the nutrients? We already use a massive amount of petroleum based nitrogen.
"But if push came to shove, we could totally do it."
No, if push came to shove then people would start literally shoving in the form of a war.
"(Just like we _could_ totally get rid of fossil fuels, if we really had to and run everything on wind and solar. It's just not economically viable to do that right now.)"
That's another unsubstantiated claim. Even the EU says they cannot convert fast enough to get off of Russian gas. Let's see a link that says wind and solar are completely feasible to meet current power demands, including the energy storage required.
"I can see how some people might be queasy about putting fission reactors everywhere."
So are you changing from just the wind and solar mentioned earlier to include nuclear?
I agree that hunter-gatherer tactics are beyond their limits.
What makes you think seaweed consumption has to stay insignificant? See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30648873 for slightly more.
> What are those greenhouses going to be made out of? Petroleum based plastics, glass (CO2 for melting), or cellulose/corn plastic (that requires chemicals that aren't environmentally friendly)? Where are we getting the nutrients? We already use a massive amount of petroleum based nitrogen.
I had mostly glass in mind. But whatever works, works. You can make your glass with any energy source, doesn't have to be CO2 producing.
You can take nitrogen out of the air. Also, the atoms that fertilizers are made of don't get destroyed.. so you can recycle them indefinitely (with some effort). We are also sitting on a huge ball of matter.
You can also use substantially less fertilizers and insecticides in a controlled greenhouse environment, perhaps with drip feeding.
I hope we both agree that those approaches take energy to pull off? So the question is whether humanity can get enough sustainable energy.
> Even the EU says they cannot convert fast enough to get off of Russian gas.
We seems to be talking about different time scales here? Getting off Russian gas is something they'd want to do in the next few months or years at most. I'm talking about decades at the least.
(And, the EU could totally get off Russian gas next month. It would 'just' make energy a lot more expensive at least in the short run, and likely put the EU into a severe recession for a while. That's a more painful than the shame of buying from Russia, so they keep buying from Russia.)
> No, if push came to shove then people would start literally shoving in the form of a war.
I don't think so. But for the sake of argument: a few wars here or there don't have much of an influence on carrying capacity. Unless, of course, the wars are bad enough to kill off a substantial fraction of humanity directly or even just destroy the economy badly enough to kill off indirectly.
(That's something we can argue about, if you want to. But we don't need to argue about a few minor wars.)
> So are you changing from just the wind and solar mentioned earlier to include nuclear?
Sorry for mixing examples. I used fission reactors as an example of non-monetary costs that someone might object to.
I suspect we _could_ run everything on wind and solar (especially if you also add solar in orbit via power satellites), if we really had to. But adding nuclear fission (or fusion) to the mix would allow us a higher standard of living.
> I've never seen anything that states that. Link? UN and others estimate 8-12 billion. And none of those estimates are accounting for sustainable population. You say 100s of billions, but with what quality of life? With scare resources comes conflict.
It's more than reasonable to ask for more background information. Sorry, it's a bit hard to Google for this stuff quickly.
So here are just two links that touch on the topics mentioned:
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lJJ_QqIVnc
---
Also just to clarify: I am arguing that physically and technically we could support vastly more people on earth. I share your fear that people might blow each other up anyway.
At an absolute poverty level in a Warhammer like hive city perhaps.
Divided by a trillion people, that gives you 510 m^2 per person.
For comparison, Singapore has 128 m^2 per person.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Maximum_Speed_Law
"From April to June 1982, speed was monitored on New
York's Interstate highways, and an 83% noncompliance rate
was found despite extreme penalties"
There was a legendary coast-to-coast race in the 70s, defying the national 55 mph limit: "Dan Gurney, winner of the 1967 24 hours of Le Mans...won
the second Cannonball in a Sunoco blue Ferrari 365 GTB/4
Daytona. Gurney said, "At no time did we exceed 175 mph"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannonball_Baker_Sea-To-Shinin...While the races ended due to police crackdowns, people still do the coast to coast run individually and set records:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannonball_Run_challenge
"In May 2020, Arne Toman, Doug Tabbutt, and spotter
Dunadel Daryoush set the new cannonball record of 25
hours and 39 minutes during the COVID-19 pandemic in a
modified 2016 Audi S6 disguised to look like a Ford
Taurus police interceptor. Police-evasion modifications
included brake light kill-switches, radar detectors,
laser diffusers, CB-radio, and a roof-mounted thermal
camera. Performance modifications included a trunk-
mounted 67-gallon auxiliary fuel cell..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cannonball_RunA comedy where:
"JJ McClure, a famous racing driver and team owner
(Reynolds), and Victor Prinzi, his chief mechanic and
sometime co-driver (DeLuise), drive a Dodge Tradesman
ambulance fitted with a NASCAR engine (Hal Needham and
Brock Yates used the same vehicle in the actual 1979
race)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Can%27t_Drive_55 "...it took two and a half hours to drive there from
Albany. And I was driving from Albany, New York at 2:00
in the morning, burnt from all the travel. Cop stopped me
for doing 62 on a four lane road when there was no one
else in sight. Then the guy gave me a ticket. I was doing
62. And he said, 'We give tickets around here for over-
60.' and I said, 'I can't drive 55.' I grabbed a paper
and a pen..."
Really, (and I just learned this) it says it all that there was a punk album titled as a reaction to "I can't drive 55" called "Double Nickels on the Dime". In Soviet America, the rebels drive 55!In any case, from what you quote here, it seems Americans driving fast occasionally is worthy the stuff of legend? In Germany those speeds would be just another Tuesday.
About half of German Autobahnen famously don't have a speed limit. The recommended speed is 130 km/h (~80 mph).
Of course, petrol costs a lot more in Germany than in the US. In practice, that tends to limit driving much more.
Not really. People that drive a lot or like to save money just buy more fuel efficient cars - whenever I read about fuel efficiency of US cars (and bother to convert gallons and miles to units I understand) I am shocked how super inefficient many vehicles on the US market are, especially given that speed limit - likely due to much lower petrol cost.
Sadly its not that simple :( 'Czech millionaire investigated over alleged 417km/h motorway drive in Germany' https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60301705
Another thing to keep in mind, is that if you drive fast enough in Germany, and anything happens, the burden of proof shifts: the (extreme) speeder is presumed guilty of causing the accident until proven innocent.
Fun fact, the incident you linked to happened where I grew up.
You can argue that the law is bad and just be repealed, of course.
(Or like the guy in the article, you can have your lawyer try and argue in court that the law doesn't apply in this case. As a competent lawyer should in a fair trial.)
Not sure any politician was involved in the first place? Though of course politicians might utter opinions on the whole thing. As they should, so that voters can decide who to vote for, if they are in favour or against this law.
I was making a more general point too, and I'm sorry if you took my comment too literally.
In Germany it would be another Tuesday, because it would be legal. Driving fast according to the law doesn't represent the same thing, which is connected to that cultural difference I was observing.
For more about the whole philosophy of the movement I recommend:
The Cannonball Run Countach: Supercar Legend | Full Documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b7erU_DOfE
The original https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic is pretty incompatible with big companies & co.
I also don't understand how that is "left" either.
He's probably also being intentionally inflammatory given the association of left and progressive politics.
But from an environmental, not spending the money in the first place (not upgrading a car or phone) in both cases would be a net win for the environment.
If you just take the money and bury it in your backyard forever, the central bank will just replace it after a while. (Assuming a typical inflation targeting central bank. And also in aggregate, because the central bank doesn't know exactly how much money is getting buried; but they do monitor total spending in the economy.)
If you leave the money in the bank, the bank invests it.
If you want to make a positive difference, you can use the money to contribute to eg carbon reduction efforts.
The rest of what you are saying is right: there's better and worse ways to spend that money. (In the worst case, you could buy a few tons of coal and just set them on fire.) I'm just saying that earning money and not spending it at all, doesn't automatically mean zero net emissions.
But since we are at it: loans create deposits only in some narrow technical sense, but not in practice.
You are right than in the logical second when a bank makes a loan, they just create a pair of accounting entries out of thin air. One entry in your checking account, and one entry to record the loan.
I hope you agree that most people don't take out loan to let the money just sit in their account: they spent it.
For simplicity, let's assume the common case that the people the debtor spends their money at, don't have an account with our bank.
Our bank loses reserves, when people spend deposits. It doesn't matter whether they spend via withdrawing as cash first or whether they make a bank transfer.
A bank can not operate with negative reserves.
They get more reserves by either accepting deposits or by borrowing them.
Does this make sense to you? If not, where am I going wrong? and why do you think banks accept deposits in the first place or issue bonds in their name etc?
(For simplicity, let's assume no (positive) legal minimum reserve requirements. But also let's assume that banks need a positive level of reserves to operate; eg to pay out withdrawals and net-settle interbank transfers.
If you want to challenge those assumptions, we can do that, too. But please say so explicitly. Thanks!)
Basel III makes no mention of reserves, but it does talk about liquidity. Liquidity can be and is met through interbank lending, with the center bank filling in as necessary.
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/m... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel_III http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcaval... https://positivemoney.org/2011/04/monetary-reform-myths-1-10...
A nice bonus link on interest rates not necessarily controlling inflation in the expected way: https://new-wayland.com/blog/interest-price-spiral/
For the same reason they pay interest on deposits: https://new-wayland.com/blog/why-banks-pay-interest-on-depos...
These are fun weekend/special occasions vehicles.
All this is very perverse, like a race to the bottom with double-standards and contradictions everywhere. "For thee, not me".
2) even the most polluting Ferrari, which according to this page (1) emits 385g/km , is still almost a quarter less polluting than this car (506 g/km according to the article)
(1) https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/cars/Car-CO2-and-fuel-economy-mp...
But hey look! That one car! Fuck that in particular.
Yes, but this entire thread is about de-revolutionizing the car industry. People in China and India would like to have a word with us.
We should be working on sequestrating CO2 from the atmosphere using novel means (Solar, Nuclear), making breakthroughs in efficiency and promoting domestic manufacturing. I don't have the answers. I am just pointing out the double-standards that are hidden behind massive sweeping statements like "Ban all cars".
These discussions tend to be about one-upping each other instead of discussing fundamental issues and solving them. It is mostly political, not objective and shying away from confronting reality.
How is it de-revolutionizing to optimize away from massive, wasteful cars like this and towards more efficient cars -- or perhaps even systems where personal cars are done away with entirely as a necessity?
> People in China and India would like to have a word with us.
India has roughly half of the country not owning a car, and the US, Japan, and Mexico all manufacture more cars than them. Not sure what bone they'd have to pick in this fight other than you assuming they're invested in manufacturing cars?
> We should be working on sequestrating CO2 from the atmosphere using novel means (Solar, Nuclear), making breakthroughs in efficiency and promoting domestic manufacturing.
All true, but we can do all those while also disincentivizing wasteful cars like the one described in the article that serve as nothing more than dangerous, pedestrian-killing status symbols.
If anything, the more stuff they give everyone, the better their emissions look relatively.
No thanks!
we all need to be able live together, and just as a completely carless city is unrealistic, a car only city is no better, but the latter unfortunately is often the reality.
I live without a car. Public transit suffices, I walk my kid to school.
But sure, don't engage with the argument at hand, I guess.
Imposing the emission of a 1000HP truck onto other people's lungs is a good example of bad taste.
Designing a car-centric society that denies access to good quality transit is authoritarian.
> excelling at craftsmanship. It gives people jobs, reduces income inequality (transfer of wealth from top to bottom) and propelling culture forward.
Citation desperately needed of all those claims.
> virtue signaling ... woke fetish
Spare us the dog whistles please.
I say all of that to say that big gas guzzler vehicles are an easy target for judgement but in the scheme of things they’re about 29% of CO2 emissions. Cars are getting more fuel efficient and the average car is not a supercharged v8.
Also what’s wrong with the fetishization of cars? There is a lot to geek out to in vehicle engineering. Not all cars are a giant eff you to the planet. Just like not every computer is a 500gpu crypto miner.
And keeps regular people from affording an EV truck. Although, I also hate how much stupid tech they put in them.
"Cars are getting more fuel efficient and the average car is not a supercharged v8."
I was surprised that I recently got 20.5 mpg hauling 1200 lbs of lumber. That was almost double what I expected to get.
"There is a lot to geek out to in vehicle engineering."
I absolutely agree. Prior to computer (and phreaks, and ham, etc) hot rodders where hackers. There's still a lot of interesting tech and concepts to explore.
They don't have the money to transition so they could either sell these high margin vehicles to fund the transition to EVs or sell off the business and dump all the non useful assets like the engine/transmission factories. Either way, you aren't getting your cheap truck until there is sufficient volume and the second approach will make it harder to get to that volume.
It's unlikely that many normal people will be able charge an EV, even if they can afford one. About 1/3 of houses lack a garage, and I highly doubt that apartments will offer chargers in their lots. Electrical generation may be an issue if large numbers of EVs are being charged every night. Lower repairability and the large costs associated with battery packs mean the used market won't be large. It's going to be very hard to live outside the city.
> And keeps regular people from affording an EV truck.
How, exactly?
AFAICS, if Stellantis didn't have the profits from stuff like this, they'd have to charge even more for other stuff... Like electric vehicles. Or go out of business -- and then they wouldn't sell any electric vehicles at all. Which would lower the overall supply-side of the EV market, lowering competitive pressure on other manufacturers so they all have less of a need to compete on price. Now that would keep people from being able to afford an electric truck!
The exact opposite of your thesis.
Eh, the former is pretty easy: just tax pollution and let people decide how much polluting they want to afford. But that's too boring to have long discussions about.
About the latter: it's not my business what people do in their bedroom.
It's easy to say "just buy electric"... but that's 40k+ eur right now, and if you live in an apartment building, you have nowehere to charge it, unless you wait at a public charging station for hours every few days.
We have A LOT of people warning against climate change, eg obama:
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-record/climate
But we also have obama buying waterfront property, which will supposedly be underwater soon.
https://www.businessinsider.com/obamas-buy-home-on-marthas-v...
Same for the terminator:
https://www.schwarzeneggerclimateinitiative.com/about
But drives a monstrosity of an SUV:
https://www.tmz.com/2022/01/21/arnold-schwarzenegger-car-acc...
So yes... raise the taxes, the poor won't be able to drive at all, their houses will be cold all winter, and massive polluters will still pollute.
No need to mix up your redistribution apparatus with your pigovian taxes. Both of them would be worse off for this double duty.
Since the comment in question is merely a normative opinion on what we should do, here's mine: We should banish the fun police, and stop believing all the hyperbolic things that activists tell us. [1]
We are under no obligation to align every aspect of our life (like interest in fancy cars) with the puritan values of anyone.
[1]: Things like "we only have 18 months to save the planet" (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48964736.amp).
"Fetishisation" is a word that is inching closer to being an instant giveaway for a ham-fisted or outright stupid take. Your average person driving a car in the US isn't "fetishizing" anything. They live in a big-ass country where a lot of things they care about are far away. Having a car allows them to get to their job, see their family, and so on. It's not some insidious plot to keep you from walking around your city.
Americans are mocked worldwide for their ridiculous cars. Oversized, gas guzzling, ostentatious, and yes - fetishized cars are associated with Americans worldwide.
> It's not some insidious plot to keep you from walking around your city.
OP didn't say it is. However car manufacturers did in fact plot - conspired, even - to attack trams, public transport, trains, and anything else that could threaten their dominance. That's just well known fact, and I don't know why you're defending any of this.
Have you ever actually traveled outside America and seen how much nicer it is to be able to walk around a city that isn't designed completely around cars? It's a far, far superior daily experience.
But remind me. Where are BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Jaguar, Rolls Royce, and others HQ’d?
While Americans have larger vehicles we also have more space and unfortunately a society designed around cars. I don’t get how we are “fetishizing” cars when almost all of the actual fetish vehicles are designed in other countries. Everyday people buying a giant SUV are almost certainly not fetishizing it. They just have 3 kids and it’s easy and they sit up high on the road.
I agree completely with the rest of your post, though. I’m experiencing some schadenfreude (not in a serious manner) with those multi-car households and giant gas-guzzling vehicles having to experience a bit of the costs for the world they advocate for when they typically do not. Problem is they vote, even against their (and my) long-term interests.
Those cars are designed in other countries to be larger specifically for America taste.
Americans visit Europe and chuckle at the "tiny" cars, which are in fact perfectly appropriate for three children. And those cars were designed by the same companies for European standards.
To me, that reads as fetishization on a mass cultural level, and while you can point the finger anywhere you like that fact will remain at the core.
There is no justification, on a planet burning faster every year, for the ridiculously oversized cars Americans choose. None.
You're mixing up a preference based on no immediate negative repercussions with Pimp My Ride. Believe it or not, Americans are just regular people. Immigrants to the U.S. don't walk from point to point, they buy large SUVs too.
If Americans are burning the planet (and we are, to be clear, with bone-headed city and urban planning decisions) than auto manufacturers from other countries absolutely share the blame, including their employees (to the same extent you'd blame an American for buying a large SUV) for selling the fuel and matches and advertising how cool the fuel and matches are, especially when used together.
Which facts? Can you provide some sources?
You may be genuine, in which case I recommend using literally any search engine on the device of your choice to find sources which you like. Wikipedia, YouTube, or deeper - there is no shortage of sources - all you have to do is look.
Americans mock other nations for all sorts of shit that isn't true, like French people not showering or Germans sounding/being angry all the time. Should we take those thoughts seriously because a lot of people think them?
Americans do buy a lot of pickups. Many of these get decent gas mileage. A lot of people use these for work. Crossovers are the biggest new sellers (over 50% of new sales, if my memory serves me correctly), which get marginally worse mileage than the cars they're directly descended from. The size of all of these vehicles is prodded along by "safety" regulations and ratings, where a higher hood height is correlated with the driver/passengers being safer in accidents (this has its own problems but it's a different discussion).
I think you have an exaggerated view of what US auto consumer preferences look like. This is really easy because the whole "the US is a shithole with no redeeming qualities" narrative is popular among some crowds, but it doesn't reflect the reality of what's happening.
>However car manufacturers did in fact plot - conspired, even - to attack trams, public transport, trains, and anything else that could threaten their dominance. That's just well known fact, and I don't know why you're defending any of this.
Those plots and attacks range from completely unverifiable conspiracy theories, to unintended consequences, to actions that one might reasonably argue were an attempt to interfere with public transit. It is nowhere near as cut and dry as you're making it out to be, and trying to claim that some unproven conspiracy by Big Car is the primary reason the US is so dependent on cars today is myopic. You've suggested that others in this thread "just Google it", but some of the first results you're going to see when researching this subject touch pretty heavily on what I've said above -- the person asking you for some sources probably wasn't a "sealion" (whatever that is), they probably already did what you told them to, and some of the highest ranking info directly contradicted your argument.
>Have you ever actually traveled outside America and seen how much nicer it is to be able to walk around a city that isn't designed completely around cars? It's a far, far superior daily experience.
Nobody is denying that it's nicer to be able to walk around a city without having to deal with cars and traffic. The discussion is whether or not it is even feasible to have that anywhere in the US to the extent that other places do.
That's not an argument that applies here, because Americans actually do buy stupidly big cars.
> I think you have an exaggerated view of what US auto consumer preferences look like. This is really easy because [overly defensive strawman]
No, I don't. Here's some numbers, which you could have looked for yourself, with the search engine of your choice:
" According to data from IHS Automotive, larger vehicles accounted for 63 percent of total US sales in 2013. Meanwhile, large vehicles only accounted for 25.4 percent of all vehicles sold outside the US during the same year."
> Those plots and attacks range from completely unverifiable conspiracy theories, to unintended consequences, to actions that one might reasonably argue were an attempt to interfere with public transit.
The cars are bigger. The cities are less livable. The conspiracies are verifiable, there are entire books, documentaries, and Wikipedia pages about the various fuckeries involved.
You seem to be rather defensive about this though, so feel free to think whatever you like.
> The discussion is whether or not it is even feasible to have that anywhere in the US
That may be what you wish to discuss - fine. You can have that discussion somewhere else, with someone else. It is feasible though - and necessary. Again, the fucking planet is burning.
"Larger" is doing some really heavy lifting, and that data is not capturing the large market share gains crossovers have made in the last decade.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/276506/change-in-us-car-...
45% of all vehicles sold in the US in mid 2020 to mid 2021 were crossovers, which are almost without exception based on a "small car" platform and have similar fuel efficiency numbers. You're finding data that has some arbitrary definition of "large" -- from what I can tell, IHS would count an Impreza as "small" and a Forester as "large", and that is completely worthless for backing up a claim that Americans overwhelmingly drive gas-guzzling vehicles. The shift in focus to crossovers in the strategy of large auto manufacturers active in the US is glaringly obvious and you not realizing this is either a matter of you not paying attention or just willfully ignoring it.
>You seem to be rather defensive about this though, so feel free to think whatever you like.
I'm not even disagreeing with you that it happened in some circumstances, I'm just saying that you're massively overselling the importance of it. It's hard to even engage with this; you just keep saying that there's verifiable instances of it that are as impactful as you're claiming, but then refuse to provide specific examples that might make me reconsider my position. If it's so easy to find info about, just link it and we can be on the same page.
>That may be what you wish to discuss - fine. You can have that discussion somewhere else, with someone else. It is feasible though - and necessary. Again, the fucking planet is burning.
If you're just going to straight-up make very, very debatable assertions (like reducing American car dependence in favor of public transit being feasible) with nothing to back it up, there's no discussion to be had here. We get that America is car dependent, that we should reduce carbon emissions, that the climate apocalypse is imminent, etc. so if we're just going to go over that ad nauseam we're just wasting our time.
I assume they know how to sell, and that fetishisation works.
>It's not some insidious plot to keep you from walking around your city.
It's exactly that. "Jaywalking" was promoted by the US auto industry. It doesn't exist in most countries.
I'm still waiting for a coherent challenge that isn't 1) we need to completely change the economy and how geography works because climate change; or, 2) I don't like the people who really like cars.
So the rare times I drive, I mostly use an electric. The even rarer times I drive a diesel car, I use HVO100 [0]. That is by choice. I consciously try to limit my fossil fuel consumption with the goal of reducing war subsidies and global warming. So what if that makes me a naive idiot.
And yes, I hope for more people to share those goals, eventually translating them into my government's energy policies.
But but but... am I a gas guzzler party pooper? Not at all! Museum workshops work wonderfully well for steam trains, historical agricultural tools and industrial archeology. They could work very well for this kind of historical vehicle propulsion too!
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrotreated_vegetable_oil
How many people here avoid flying out of principle?
There is a clear answer to - Do planes pollute a lot? (yes/no)
> Also, using a different car is very easy, it does not compare to not flying, so the comparison is more than just a little flawed to begin with.
What if one wants to drive a gas guzzler, but avoid airline travel? :)
I'm not sure what you're expecting, but surely it's lots?
Yep, absolutely!
> also the fetishisation of cars in general.
Aww come on! What's wrong with being a petrolhead? Appreciate a fine piece of engineering!
I'm into planes as well.
Talk of car specs and removing limiters is disappointing you? This is “hacker news” after all?