China to provide 5 mln yuan worth of humanitarian assistance to Ukraine
reuters.com
reuters.com
From https://www.ifrc.org/fundamental-principles
"The Movement is independent. The National Societies, while auxiliaries in the humanitarian services of their governments and subject to the laws of their respective countries, must always maintain their autonomy so that they may be able at all times to act in accordance with the principles of the Movement."
Russia is China's biggest permanent enemy, with its size and ambitions, together with the fact that it is the only foreign country that still occupy lands traditionally owned by China, you'd need a bullet in the brain to believe that Russia is China's ally. It is the single largest threat to China's security & future stability.
Seeing the poor performance of Russia troops in the last two weeks offered huge comfort to many Chinese like myself - a weak Russia & an incapable Russian armed forces is a solid foundation of the peace of our generation.
> of the peace of our generation.
Thanks, got a laugh from that.
These 2 facts don't match, and you should think why, maybe some propaganda is at work.
Edit: crap I forgot I'm green, which looks so bad when I make this kind of arguments.
Do we really know them? We know what china has publicly announced.
Officially they critizice it, but stand by russia anyway. Internally they might be cheering, or really frowning.
Very hard to believe this is something that could happen without the CCP’s politburo approval
Same here. China won't even allow local western politicians to meet with a local Taiwenese politician (yes they have such influence, Amsterdam Politicians are not allowed to be on photo with Taiwenese politicians). 100% sure they care about the actions of such a prestigious institute as the Chinese Red cross.
Maybe they'll give the speeches. Lament the tragic loss of human life. Say whatever polite society expects them to say. But they really don't care when it comes down to it.
Someone tried to tell me that a long time ago about a potential war between Iran and Israel. China would make the speeches. Show up at all the meetings. But they really wouldn't care.
It wouldn't be a cultural misunderstanding leading it to appear to us that they don't care.
It wouldn't be a feigned indifference they act out to gain some negotiating advantage in some other area.
They Truly. Wouldn't. Care.
They may participate in memorial ceremonies. Perhaps contribute to the reconstruction of affected nations. But for the most part, yeah, they'll just keep marching off to Africa and extracting resources to build China.
In essence, maybe they're like us in the West, but with less pretense.
People think because China and Russia are both opposed to the USA, then they must be friends. They are not. Especially not if Russia tries to revive the Soviet Union as a concept which hurts China's independence worse than US-type globalism.
Oh, I missed that part. Guess I was wrong.
The Chinese government does not tolerate independent power centers. Civil society organizations are either tiny or work extremely closely with the Party-State. The same is true of private companies. If it’s a big company it follows government directives.
The invasion of Russia put China in a dilemma that China can not condemn Russia but on the other hand it does not support the invasion. There are a few reasons:
1.Ukraine has a very friendly relation with China . Not only this government but also earlier ones before the war (Now it might be different). Probably because Ukraine is not ideological. It's only hostile to Russia but not China as it's a "Regime". As a comparison there's another democratic country did the other way
2.The invasion is against China's historic position in UN so not condemning Russia is already a embarrassment.
3.The invasion is against China's interest.
Just a some facts: * The trade and exchange of student between 2 countries are quite significant. * The first negotiation between Russia and Ukraine was after a online meeting between Xi and Putin, along with phone call between Foreign ministers of China and Ukraine. There's a speculation but as history shows China like to do things quietly because It's often a more effective way.
Humblebrag much?
And no, you're not China, whose government is actively supporting Russia; which means that any humanitarian support flowing from China to Ukraine is news.
Update: For those still unconvinced, a neighboring economy with equivalent to 5% of China's GDP donated 27 tons of medical supplies. Anyone with knowledge want to calculate the market value of each ton of medical supply?
>70% of employees at FAANG make less than $800k per year.
But okay, 2 FANG employees :)
How does entry level for Google in Europe looks like? Both in UK and non-UK countries?
Looks like the bottom is similar to Mountain View and higher levels are lower for Google.
https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&c...
But its a very welcome donation by CRC considering the political move.
By the way, when China used to have disasters, international communities use to donate 10x that amount. Some food for thought.
I donated 1 month of my paycheck to Ukraine. And notice how I'm not complaining that anyone donated too little. I think Ukraine can use any help they can get. And if the Chinese Red Cross donates whatever, that is great.
If you donated a lot, then I agree that you're allowed to judge others. But as long as you don't hold yourself to your own standard, I suggest you look in the mirror first.
Here's the definition for you (just in case): Critical thinking is the analysis of available facts, evidence, observations, and arguments to form a judgment.
What you are effective saying is that I should keep my mouth shut because any help they can get we should be grateful. Despite the fact, their government knew of this attack even before and support the attack on Ukraine by actively spreading Russian propaganda saying the Ukrainians deserve it.
As for saying I can't judge the motivations of the Chinese government until I donate as much as them is just.. ¯\(°_o)/¯ ?! What kind of logic is that? Pay-to-judge? What (https://i.imgur.com/lB5wmMp.png)?! Oh man.. This is truly the first head scratcher I have ever encountered here.
I guess complaining on a forum is easier than actually doing something to help people.
Is this a hedge to maintain a good reputation and a good working relationship with the world by using this action as a: "Hey, look we helped Ukraine in its time of need"?
> China has refused to describe Russia's activities in Ukraine as invasion.
So in this case it doesn't seem like they're different.
Also Red Cross seems to be dead. Many people on the ground said that in the past 8 years in Ukraine it did nothing.
Will need more research but it seems to be highly ineffective organization that spends a lot of money and doesn’t produce much.
So sending this amount of money is basically nothing and looks like PR move.
China isn't going to assist Ukraine directly, of course, nor is it going to push hard to back Russia. But backchannel humanitarian aid always looks good, and can't be criticised. Plus it helps to drive the point home that Putin has embarrassed them and they don't like that.
My understanding is Xi knew of the invasion well-ahead, and actually told Putin to delay it, to not interfere with the Beijing Olympics. This might partly explain the logistical problems the Russians are having: when they first started massing combat power, they didn't plan to have 150,000+ guys sitting around in the winter for quite this long.
TBH I'm still surprised Russia didn't employ salami tactics, taking the breakaway regions while holding troops on the Ukrainian border as a deterrence to interfere, and to warn them away from NATO.
But then again, word on the street is that Putin really did believe that Ukrainians consider themselves Russian at heart and would welcome him.
... Or maybe he just got impatient?
It feels weird even calling this 'an incident'. It's not like they invaded by mistake
The point is that in Putin's eyes, Ukraine should have put up a token defence at best before succumbing to the will of the people to rejoin Russia. It was most definitely NOT supposed to turn into this shitshow that forces countries and multinationals alike to choose sides.
And now America is going to milk it (much to Poland's consternation) by allowing this assault to continue, knowing full well that Putin is trapped and can't retreat lest he lose his head over it. So Russia will bleed herself dry over the next 1-2 months in an impossible war as he grasps at straw after straw until someone puts him out of his misery. Russia will be neutralized for decades to come (possibly forever), the cold warriors will rejoice, and Eastern Europe will join a West-centric alliance that can help defend against China's aimed rise to supremacy.
At least that's the plan. But China is no slouch when it comes to geopolitics and intrigue. Belt and road took a hit, but it's far from out.
That's why the West has refused to impose no-fly zones, and why America refused to allow Poland to play pass-the-mig-29 via Rammstein. There must be no perceived direct American military involvement. This has to look like Russia digging her own grave if there's ever to be a hope of him being quietly retired.
Also, simply pausing the official NATO process with Ukraine was insufficient, because the US was already giving a billion dollars of arms plus training to Ukraine independent of it's NATO status.
It seems like China was caught off guard by the scale, like many other people. Possibly even most of the Russian government.
The assumption by almost everyone was that Russia would recognize the separatist regions that were already essentially owned by Russia. But instead they dropped paratroopers and sent tanks straight to the capital of a European country with 45 million people.
One has to wonder how much of that difference in "geopolitical expectation" vs "strategic reality" comes down to military decisions around geography?
Geopolitically it would make sense for Russia to only go into the separatist regions and reinforce them, after all that's been their publicly stated goal since the beginning, such a "short-range invasion" into territories who are already mostly pro-Russian would have been a rather quick and done deal.
But from a military strategic perspective these areas might not be very good defensive positions long term, especially when the prospect is anything that involves masses of NATO forces. While just bit further West the Dnieper presents a very convenient geographical barrier, with Kyiv sitting right in the middle of it.
But still I didn't grasp the scale of it until paratroopers helidropped at some airport. The risk in such a manouver is insane and was really a scarier insight that this is a real war than rows of tanks.
I really thought the "peacekeeping force" Russia sent in to separatist territories was it and what the US had been warning against.
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/150118843952964403...
"Chinese media is reporting within Russia's captured territories and embedded with Russian troops" https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t9h3rp/chinese_med...
Humanitarian aid helps you support people and not help in the defense of Ukraine, so Russia won't mind.
Also, compared to China's GDP, this is nothing when you compare it to other countries.
China in general is concerned with trade.
How do we know which side those people are on?
Either way, fortunately the world doesn't function by 51% majority vote.
So, they are quite unhappy with Russia’s invasion, but they can’t join US sanctions, because US. Instead they’ll probably sanction Russia silently, and then buy out Russian industry for peanuts.
We are perversely enthusiastic towards wars. Chinese - the people, not just their government - hate war. Even if sometimes it’s not a good thing, like when declining to join economic war against Russia.
This is the argument you're still positing after the last month? Is the irony lost on you? I guess if it's not crystal clear: https://www.npr.org/2022/01/10/1071766987/u-s-russia-dicuss-...
China also promised that Hong Kong would operate as it had until 2047 so clearly the Taiwanese have reason to question the sincerity of these claims.
So, who left that detail out - you, or the medium you trusted?
That didn't happen trough "democracy and freedom", that happened trough literal British colonial conquest and subjugation.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Nanking#Cession_of_H...
Also, we don’t need to look 150 years back. It’s enough to look at current statistics from American penitentiary system to notice continued race-based mass oppression, and to some extent (fortunately slowly winding down) literal slavery in private prisons.
That would be the actual example of using offensive military action to take over other countries territories, but it was Colonial Britain doing it, taking away territories from China.
To get that territory back China did not invade HK with an military offensive, so you using HK as an example for such a thing happening is just weird and completely opposite to what actually happened with HK.
Adding some pointless fluff about "enslavement, torture, human rights" and all the usual memes does not detract from that point, it's just moving the goalpost, it's trying to evoke emotions over a situation that international law wise is quite unspectacular.
It's also historically revisionist, as it implies British HK didn't start out as a colony very much based on enslavement and exploitation, not out of some grander ambition to "bring human rights and democracy!" to the people of HK.
HK never had a legitimate claim to independence being a colony. Taiwan is a completely different case since it is ruled by locals (Chinese) rather than some colonial overlords.
You're clearly ignoring facts. They have increasingly frequently breached Taiwan's airspace with attack aircraft, which is a crystal clear threat that nobody can confuse (which is the point). And when they're not airspace breaches, they're as close as they can get to it in order to torment/bully Taiwan.
January 22: "Taiwan reports new large-scale incursion by Chinese warplanes. The 39 planes warned away from the island’s air defense zone were the most on a single day since October."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taiwan-reports-new-large-...
China has also directly threatened to force Taiwan into reunification as needed. The threat of force is an offensive action. If I threaten to invade my neighbor's house to take their property, that's an offensive action, it's not mere speech. If I threaten to kill my neighbor (which is what a forced reunification entails to one degree or another), that is an offensive action, it is not mere speech.
"China’s Xi threatens Taiwan with force but also seeks peaceful 'reunification'"
https://www.france24.com/en/20190102-china-xi-jinping-says-t...
Warmongering indeed. /s
> "Chinese people don’t attack other Chinese people. We are willing to use the greatest sincerity and expend the greatest hard work to strive for the prospect of peaceful reunification."
According to their words, China strives for peaceful unification, but there's little chance that can be achieved. Taiwanese people overwhelmingly reject unification, only 7.4% of the population prefer unification now or anytime in the future. The predominant preferences are 'status quo' and 'status quo but move toward independence'.[2] A vanishingly tiny minority (2.8%) identify themselves as Chinese, and they really are: Boomer Chinese refugees that fled to Taiwan after they lost the civil war. In decades past they were more influential as they essentially were a single-party occupational government thrust onto a people that didn't speak Chinese and hadn't been under "Chinese" (neither ROC nor PRC) governance since the Qing Dynasty. But as they die off, the vast, and growing, majority (62.3%) identify as Taiwanese, not Chinese, not both, just Taiwanese.[3]
> "But if separatist forces for 'Taiwan independence' provoke us, force our hand or even cross the red line, we will be compelled to take resolute measures."
That huge majority would most likely vote for independence in a referendum, except for the threat of invasion. The Chinese propaganda quoted above would have you believe that "separatist forces" are some radical minority, or outside agitators, but in fact they are they overwhelming majority of Taiwanese. They begrudgingly choose to maintain the status quo and continue to work slowly towards independence by forming stronger ties with other countries, asserting national identity, and decoupling their economy from China, rather than immediately declaring independence, because that would cross the "red line" and trigger "resolute measures." Do you sincerely believe that the Chinese "resolute measures" are not war? This isn't just quoting Western propaganda. I live here and talk to people every day. Practically no one likes China or wants to unify with then. The 'status quo' people I meet typically have two reasons: they enjoy the freedom of living in a liberal democracy and fear they will lose it if they insist, so it's better to quietly enjoy it, OR, they have economic interests in maintaining the status quo. That is, they are in business that benefits from cheap Chinese labor, or they sell into the massive Chinese market. I've never met anyone that didn't think the "resolute measures" were anything short of launching missiles.
> China is essentially pacifist. And it’s not just their politics; it’s how Chinese - the actual people - feel. Invading anyone just isn’t their thing.
This is nothing more than orientalism. Chinese are people, like other people, not a mythical enlightened race entirely different from everyone else on the planet. They commit war and conquer territory just like anyone else. You can call anything "internal" by fluffing up a story about inalienable, historical rights to it. In fact, their claims to Taiwan are not very compelling. The only time Taiwan and China were unified was for ~4 years after Japanese surrender during the civil war, or under the Qing. The Chinese themselves considered the Qing to be a foreign occupation of Tatars, so you could say that Taiwan and China were co-occupied. Before the Qing administered the coastal areas, a Ming renegade established a kingdom that ruled present-day Tainan for 20 years. He had fled the Mainland after the fall of the Ming to the Qing, and hope to restore the Ming (a weird echo of history with today's PRC corresponding to Qing and ROC to Ming). Before any Chinese claimed anything on the island, the Dutch and the Spanish ruled Formosa. Before them, aboriginals had been here for god knows how long, and still are.
The fact is, Taiwan is an important strategic possession for China to project its power, it's an important buffer for Japan (with who the Chinese have shared a millennium of conflict, regardless of ideology or government), and they'll make up whatever historical justification they can to support their claim. It's no better than Russian claims of protecting ethnic Russians in every country in Eastern Europe, or German claims to Sudetenland.
[1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22We+do+not+promise+to+reno...
[2]: https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7801&id=6963
[3]: https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7800&id=6961
This alone, when compared with your assumptions, shows the rift between reality and western media rhetorics.
Here's a good chart to consider for the history percentages of people who identify as Taiwanese rather than Chinese or both. Clearly that has been moving solidly in the direction of an independent identity:
https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/upload/44/doc/6961/People202112.jpg
(Source: https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7800&id=6961)
Now, here's the chart from polls looking at what people want:
https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/upload/44/doc/6963/Tondu202112.jpg
(Source: https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7801&id=6963)
That shows a more complicated position: support for either immediate unification or independence has been a minority position for a long time but “maintain status quo, move towards independence” has grown from ~8% to 25% with a notable spike starting in 2019 and a decline in both “maintain status quo, decide at later date” and “maintain status quo, move toward unification”.
This one is quite telling: https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3168656/u...
Everyone knows China as a Russian trade partner but they're also a major Ukrainian trade partner as well.
If you want a more neutral source there's Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Ukraine_relation...
Supporting evidence is that the amount is paltry, even insulting, as a govt donation, so either they were rushed into 'sponsoring' the existing announcement, or they are sending a message of barely even token aid.
https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/china-civilians-harm-russia-i...
5000x as much per person.
Netherlands donated more than 100 million. China is 1,4 billion people, not 1 billion and the donated amount is 800 k. Not 1 million. Netherlands is 17,3 million people, not 20 million.
Additionally, Netherlands donated euros, not dollars.
--
If you take into consideration that Ukraine was a "one road one belt" partner and had a nuclear protection agreement with China. In return, Ukraine also delivered a lot of food/wheat.
Then you can see that any notion of China as a strong ally is too ridiculous to even consider.
“worth 5 million yuan ($791,540)”
It is current President is Chen Zhu who was China's Minister of Health, he is also a current vice-chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, which according to the wikipedia is "the highest organ of state power and the legislature of China". Chinese Red Cross's current honorary President is Wang Qishan, the vice President of China & the right hand man of Xi.
The Netherlands with ~ 20 million people donated over 100 million in 1 donation this week.
That's more than 100 x more in absolute numbers and china has over 1 billion people.
Anyone wants to compare relative difference per capita? Since this is not even newsworthy in absolute numbers.
Probably it's a record low in relative numbers.
China has the means to end this war on short notice but it choose not to.
It’s something that happened and might interest some people. That makes it news and someone found it interesting enough to share on HN.
News items don’t have to be more meaningful than “x happened”.
In this case it’s interesting to know actions taken by China in the context of Ukraine invasion by Russia. Even if it isn’t that meaningful, it’s still a message.
Yes, they do. Any news story that would be covered by the mainstream media needs to present evidence of a new or interesting phenomenon that satisfies intellectual curiosity. Do most stories about Ukraine, Russia, China or the war satisfy intellectual curiosity, or emotional needs? Do they generate intellectually stimulating conversation, or just act as a medium for the same tedious political tribalism that most political subjects tend to generate?
The bar has to be higher than "x happened" or else we'll get flooded with pedestrian nonsense, which we are every time a major mainstream topic takes over and the existing moderation safeguards fail.
Now, we all get to speculate about the message.
Most of the speculation here is wrong. Russia invaded Ukraine under the pretext of a humanitarian mission and if you read Russian media, Russia is distributing food and aid in Ukraine. Everywhere, but especially Russia and China, a lot of effort goes into keeping up appearances.
I think the key question is how will this be reported by China. It could be pro-Russia (China is helping Russia free Ukraine), neutral (China is providing humanitarian aid in the middle of a conflict), pro-US (China is helping Ukraine against Russia), or just about anything else.
I'm keeping my eye on People's Online Daily. Articles like this one:
http://en.people.cn/n3/2022/0309/c90000-9968524.html
(Supporting EU efforts in Ukraine)
Or this one:
http://en.people.cn/n3/2022/0309/c90000-9968563.html
(Speculating US bioweapons research in Ukraine)
If it's the Chinese Red Cross independent of government, then it's a relatively generous donation for an ngo branch that is not even in the same region, perhaps thumbing their nose at the lack of Chinese govt. support.
You can see quite a few references to the party.
Red Cross Society of China information on IFRC: https://www.ifrc.org/national-societies-directory/red-cross-...