The Hacker's Diet | Hacker News Reader

The Hacker's Diet

fourmilab.ch

79 pointsThursday2443 comments

Any guide to diet and nutrition that is dozens and dozens of pages with heavy emphasis on calories, tracking, numbers and restriction without even a _single_ mention of disorder is frankly massively irresponsible and harm waiting to happen to another poor soul.

There are many people with un-diagnosed eating disorders, and they think that their eating habits are 'normal'. I regularly stop doing keto and overdose on carbs for a few weeks, in full knowledge I'm ruining my body, but I continue this habit to my detriment. The trick is consistent keto with a commitment to continue doing it until your last days.

It's the Hacker's Diet. Move Fast and Break Things.

But more seriously, I agree with you. There are some red flags the content of the text.

For example this: "Why don't they notice? [...] You may be surprised and/or disappointed to discover that people you encounter every day don't remark on the dramatic change you perceive. [...] Don't worry, eventually they will notice." https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_4...

Or this: "Always bear in mind that dieting is the polite term for ``deliberate starvation.'' " https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_4...

And this: "Why am I doing this to myself? [...] This is the most fundamental reason to lose weight: to live longer. [...] Even if excess weight doesn't shorten your life, you're far more likely to suffer a variety of medical problems" https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_5...

What bothers you about that last one?

Several reasons. The page itself is very problematic in my opinion.

Weight loss is a valid and healthy goal if it is done for health reasons and/or to achieve personal goals. But here are the reasons the author mentions here:

1) Live longer - The author uses a quote from 400 BC as a source.

2) Better health - The author uses anectodic stories to justify this.

3) Accomplish more - The author puts the fear of exclusion in the reader's mind. Accomplishing more should be about achieving goals that you weren't able to achieve before, not about fearing that your weight will cause you to lose your job.

Everyone should have their own reasons for losing weight. I would say that emphasizing the fear of death in content that markets weight loss is borderline unethical. Especially since this page uses the "bait & switch" principle. It presents death as a fundamental reason to lose weight and ends with what amounts to saying (in my words) "even if what I said above is not true, you are more likely to get sick".

Even that is pseudoscience at best. While clinically obese people are at risk, there is no clear conclusion in the medical literature about the "perfect weight." You can even find studies that discuss the potential protective effect of a healthy level of fat that might be considered by some standards unattractive/unhealthy.

You can weigh a lot and be healthy and you can be light and unhealthy.

Physical activity, diet and avoiding a sedentary lifestyle are all lifestyle choices that matter far more than the number on your scale.

Throughout the content of the book, you can never tell if the author is addressing a medically obese person or someone who is a little overweight in the winter and wants to lose a few pounds.

The author seems to lack emotional detachment from the subject. This is a double-edged sword. It can mean that the author is giving excellent personal advice, but it can also mean that his fears, traumas, and problematic behaviors shine through.

Don't get me wrong, this is an excellent collection of tips & tricks. It is the justifications and thought processes surrounding these tips that I find problematic.

With respect, this guide is somewhat better than most.

For instance it dedicates a section to the fact that the scale lies. A lot don't. It mentions that nutrition is more important than calorie counting before dismissing that as “but... we're only focusing on calories here.”

Haven't seen yet if it includes an understanding of “the wall,” the barrier impeding further weight loss... I suspect it doesn't but it has some suggestive headings that way.

I keep having to repeat this: in my experience, fasting and food quantity restriction is seriously prodromal for mania. And a good unrestricted euphoric mania can ruin your life.

Let us not forget that mood stabilizers are notorious for making you put on and retain weight. (Mine makes my body use its muscles for energy before it taps into my fat - hooray!) But honestly, lots of people with mood disorders - like mine, which prior to medication inspired me to periodically drop out of school and quit lucrative jobs - do that math every day. In the grand scheme of things, there are worse ways to be than overweight.

I fast for five to seven days a year plus intermittent fasting. In my experience it causes something close to a high. Elevated energy levels. A long fast allows you to change your guts flora which has a lasting effect on me. YMMV but n.b most cultures and religions include yearly fasting, and the is a lot of medical evidence that it's a good thing.

Try not repeating it to yourself.

please explain

or not then!

nonsense. you've got cause and effect the other way round.

this is akin to expecting programming tutorials to warn about autism.

I agree with you. I think the book is from January, 1991 so I don't think we can blame the author much as it wasn't as widely known. (I think)

I read the whole thing a while ago. To your point he wants you to weigh yourself every day and then take the weighted running average, while this works well for me when I want to diet, it would be a good way to get most people to have a disorder.

My recommendations:

[Weight lifting]

1. Squat Rack from Amazon if you have the space. Or Gym Membership. You can put together a pretty good home gym for around $1k. Lots of guides on youtube.

2. Do any good 4 day split. 30-45 minutes each.

[Cardio]

1. Rollerblades - easier and faster than running ~$300

2. Kayaking - Supper fun ~$500

3. Bike - Trail riding ~$500

[Mindset / Recovery / Stretching]

1. Bubble / Epson salt bath while you read a book for 20 minutes aloud

2. After your body is warmed up from the bath. Do 20 minutes of yoga. Like this one from Boho Beautiful Morning Yoga

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX6I6vs1EFs&t=69s

   You can add 4x10 pushups to this one. 
   Proper Breathing is half of Yoga.

3. 10 minutes of guided meditation. To improve focus Like this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTN29kj7e-w&t=13s

[Calories]

1. cronometer is a great app/website for tracking calories.

2. eatthismuch.com can be used for meal planing.

3. Mike Thurston shows how to meal prep in 15 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQVl4b-HHfY

4. Fancy vegan meals.

https://www.youtube.com/c/avantgardevegan vegan recipes and cooking

Excercise is great for overall fitness but it really does nothing for weight loss. This has been shown over and over.

While you're on fourmilab site, I recommend The Autodesk File ebook:

https://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/

A story about how Autodesk started. If I recall correctly (read it 15+ years ago), a bunch of programmers got together, without clear idea what they'll build. So they started multiple projects and decided to focus on what gets the most traction. In essence a way to test multiple ideas in paralel, thus increasing their collective chances.

There is a PDF version and an updated (2005) edition available at the URL one level up: https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/

“[The fourth edition] is essentially identical in content with the previous editions, but has been extensively re-formatted to improve appearance, accessibility, ease of navigation, and standards compliance.”

This is an area with so much noise that doing nothing can be immediately preferable to doing anything because that 'anything' might be suboptimal.

But something must be done - especially in a cognitively strenuous field. Exercise, nutrition, and 8 hours of sleep are the only consistent 'free-lunch' brain supplements a person can take outside of medication for disabilities and maybe the occasional sideways oriented substance depending on the person.

Most people want to be hot and feel good. A minority of people know how to make that happen safely. I think this is where software can really shine - by telling people exactly what to do, how often, and adjusting based on results. This site touches on the wide context of health in an 'easy to understand' yet shallow way. It leaves a lot to be desired (for example strength training) and will leave people better off but still deep in that sea of noise. Have any HNers had success with any apps or programs that they would recommend?

Love seeing this on the front page. This site was the thing that improved my health more than any other health information I’d ever read. There’s so much handwaving in the world around the subject of weight / body composition when the basics are very simple. I hope this site stays up forever.

John Walker [0], the author of "Hacker's Diet", is also a founder of Autodesk [1] - maker of AutoCAD [2] - premier CAD design tool in mechanical and structural engineering.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_(programmer)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoCAD

This post counts as a dupe because the story had significant attention less than a year ago (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html):

The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29847579 - Jan 2022 (42 comments)

Earlier:

The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25095213 - Nov 2020 (2 comments)

The Hacker's Diet (2005) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17676314 - Aug 2018 (77 comments)

The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16245178 - Jan 2018 (1 comment)

The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9658696 - June 2015 (85 comments)

The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=710399 - July 2009 (33 comments)

The Hacker's Diet: Losing weight the hacker way - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=496675 - Feb 2009 (53 comments)

The content needs major update to incorporate recent research on:

  - Macro nutrients (protein, carbs, fat)
  - Micro nutrients (vitamins and minerals, important if you do IF)
  - Intermittent fasting (IF) / time restricted feeding (TRF)
  - Strength training (including weighted calisthenics)
  - Mobility exercises
  - Sleep management
  - Supplements

There is a service for tracking weight that uses methodology from The Hacker's Diet: https://trendweight.com/

While COVID isolation did a number on my results, it's my favorite weight tracking solution.

For folks interested in the topic, the best resource I've found that thoroughly covers the latest science is [How Not to Diet](https://nutritionfacts.org/book/how-not-to-diet/) by Michael Greger. Very, very complete look at all the various aspects of dieting, with [almost 5000 citations](https://nutritionfacts.org/book/how-not-to-diet/citations/)

Seems like a pretty good resource. It doesn’t seem to follow the more recent consensus on intermittent fasting or keto/etc, but it’s an older page, so that makes sense.

As someone tempted to try it, I’m curious - what IS the consensus on intermittent fasting / keto?

I admit it’s difficult to find exact, consistent answers, but what I’ve seen is generally a roughly keto diet with all eating constrained to a 4-8 hour period in a day is very healthy.

That’s basically what I do: high fat and moderate protein, very low carbohydrates and sugars. One meal a day on average.

Same. I've been doing IF for almost 4 years now and I love it. I only do added sugars on the weekends. I do have to take salt while I'm fasting to not get headaches but aside from that it's great.

> One meal a day on average.

aka: calorie restriction

There is a lot more to nutrition than calories. The main component is "how hungry does this diet leave you feeling". Low carb in most cases leaves people feeling more full. 1600 calories of protein and fat are a lot more filling than 1600 calories of donuts and don't swing your blood sugar levels around like crazy. However you are free to keep on preaching "calorie restriction". Humans are complex machines with a conscious and subconscious not a caloric measurement device in the lab

> how hungry does this diet leave you feeling

This still comes all the way back to calorie restriction. If you feel more full, you eat fewer calories.

> Low carb in most cases leaves people feeling more full.

That has less to do with the carbohydrate content and almost everything to do with low carb food being physically more difficult to digest.

Fat and protein stay in your stomach longer than sugar but - and here's the point "low carb" advocates ignore - so does fiber. You can eat a diet of not-low carb, high fiber, plant-based foods and still lose weight while feeling full.

There's not enough hormone-altering magic in carbohydrates to overpower the effect of calories or the satiation of physical digestion.

Your post smells of gaslighting. I'll leave it to the reader to decide what they want. Keto has been the best of several diets that I've tried.

* It does decrease hunger relative to other diets (for me, possibly others)

* It doesn't have to just be steak and bacon. It's encouraged that people add in broccoli, celery, cauliflower, nuts, berries, and a variety of meats, not just steak, bacon and cheese

* It is much easier on your insulin levels than traditional diets

* It can include plenty of fiber

* Diets need to include psychology and account for it. A successful diet will not just be "calories-in/calories-out". Very few people have the will power to starve themselves to a successful weight. Almost all of the people I've met that said that never successfully lost weight or never had a weight problem to begin with.

* Don't talk down to people when clearly they have had success and have studied the topic.

I pretty much agree with everything you're saying here.

The only thing we seem to disagree on is that I believe a successful diet is overwhelmingly due to CICO. Yes, it's not the only aspect of a successful diet, but it is mandatory. I also agree that everyone needs to tailor their diet to their individual psychological needs, but not at the expense of CICO.

> Don't talk down to people when clearly they have had success and have studied the topic.

If we're comparing anecdotes, I always have success losing weight with a mainstream healthy diet (moderate protein, moderate carbs including some sugars, very low fat). I have had success with other diets - including high fat ones, which I don't do anymore because I don't think it's healthy.

In every case I attribute my success to weighing food and tracking calories.

I don’t see where anyone has talked down to you in this discussion. Could you elaborate?

I’m pretty sure there is no consensus on keto. And I’ve been doing it for just over 9 years.

edit: Luckily "It works on my hardware" is perfectly acceptable for nutrition ;)

> what IS the consensus on intermittent fasting

That some people find it to be a useful method of calorie restriction, but it's not magic.

There isn't one, they're just fad diets like all the other ones.

It's a diet to try. As someone who took to it right away vs multiple other diets I would say it has lots of advantages over "CICO" and "exercise and eat fruit you f-cking slob" diets. I was much less hungry on it, and didn't have a very hard time keeping to 1600 calories a day and losing 50lbs and keeping it off. I went back to a more moderate “lower carb” diet afterwards and have maintained just fine, with the occasional “gotta lose 5lbs from vacation”. It does work for some, but I also guarantee it won't work for everyone.

Keto is, at best, unknown and at worst controversial.

IM (or "timed eating") has been studied extensively and has been shown to help people control their weight. But it isn't magic. We're talking about around 5 lbs sustained loss.

The "exciting unknowns" of IM and whole-day fasting are around if it is good for your medium-long term health (e.g. blood sugar control), but jury is still heavily out on that one.

So, super unhelpful summary here, sorry. But nutritional science moves very slowly, in particular with long term health questions. Neither one seems outright dangerous.

The good parts of keto are the reductions in carbs which reduces blood sugar, and that by focusing on healthy fats and protein, you don't get the sugar spike and crash and then feel hungry.

Because you can go between meals, or even two meals without feeling hungry, it makes IF easier.

I recommend this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1vvigy5tQ

The most useful tool for me is the weight tracking using moving averages. I've been using Hacker's Diet Online since 2008 to track my weight and it's been a very useful way to address my weight creeping up before it got out of hand.

I think this only works if you're OCD and love tracking -everything-.

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