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Comment by saiya-jin | Hacker News Reader

Its a stupid suggestion to put it mildly, pardon my french. There is no deal to be signed. Unless you mean complete Ukrainian surrender, being dragged into being another Russian slave like Chechnya or Belarus. Putin doesn't accept anything less. Russia is now yet another horrible dictatorship, no reason to believe Ukraine would fare any better, in fact most probably much, much worse due to resistance to this invasion.

By now we all see that Russian words are less than farts in the wind, meaningless blabber with no face value.

This all was the reason why they resisted in the first place, they have good memories of brutal Russian oppression from all of 20th century. Why should they give up everything now? Doesn't make any sense.

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So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way? Please be specific

edit: I get that this sound snarky, but it will hopefully drive home the point. Unless you have a 3rd alternative to agreeing what ever the man with the nukes understands under "demilitarization and denazification" and joining a death cult with mandatory membership i dont really get what i can tell you.

> So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way

For Russia to leave them alone, and however it takes. Russia's economy is falling apart, and their army is in brutally terrible shape. They couldn't possibly occupy the country, even if they manage to conquer it, which they don't seem to be able to do. So victory for Ukraine is certain, ultimately. It will take time and cost a lot of blood and destruction, but the alternative isn't great either - being subjugated by a brutal tyrant who has no qualms murdering those who oppose him isn't a walk in the park either.

You're so brave with other people's lives.

I'm not making the choice for anyone. Ukrainians are deciding for themselves and bravely fighting against the invaders.

So in other words, you’re prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, as long as it hurts Russia?

No, Ukrainians seem to prefer to fight to the last man/woman, and considering the weaknesses that Russia reeks of, they have realistic hope.

Why are you denying the agency of the Ukrainian people?

They are the ones choosing to fight. Look at the polls. Look at the interviews. Look at all the people there voluntarily picking up arms to defend their country.

> How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way?

Russians, not Ukrainians.

Ukrainians will defend their country and the Russians won't have the stomach for a prolonged insurgency, just like in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan led to the fall of the USSR, and Ukraine will now lead to the fall and breakup of Russia.

A prolonged insurgency needs Ukrainians there to fight. That is something Russia can fix.

What ever solution you propose will have a cost in Ukrainian lives and that cost is largely determined with what Russia is willing to do. With their ruthlessness reducing their casualties massively.

He is referring to the deal offered PRIOR to the invasion. The deal that Ukraine commit to never joining NATO and agree to recognize Crimea as Russian.

In retrospect, that was better than Ukrainian cities being absolutely destroyed.

The rest of us are very keyboard brave with Ukrainian lives - telling them to fight to the end. ...but you would not be so brave if you had to live through this yourself.

Exactly, how many cities have to be destroyed before they sign? And they will be destroyed if they don’t fold.

There is exactly one way of ending this, only difference is how much Ukraine is willing to pay in blood and resources before they sign.

This is the language of bullies. "Do this or we'll hurt you." "You did that, so now do this, or we'll hurt you."

And then they hurt you anyways.

Yeah. The "deal" being offered gives me this "The Mouth of Sauron at the Black Gate" vibe.

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