We could have put troops in the country before the invasion.
Whether that is true or not, it would have given more weight to Russia/Putin’s argument than stuff about Nazis.
Only relevant red line is border of sovereign nation. No NATO member was forced to join - they actually asked to join in order to prevent invasion like the one which is in Ukraine now.
> expansion of the West
Isn't is cynical to call it expansion of the West while no-one except Russia expanded beyond borders of Russia? It is just expansion of Russia.
Nope, no one is denying Russia's expansion, nor China or the next superpower.
The only hypocrisy would be recognizing Russia's expansion and not the West.
The conservative argument is that the world should be kept as is, and whoever makes the first move is to blame for breaking that balance. Putin thinks the West did it first, before this Ukrainian invasion. The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time
> The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time
Hardly the first. What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? This isn't a story of mutual escalation, it's Russia taking as much as it can get away with.
Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs, armed these countries with heavy weapons, encouraged them to fight Russia and promised to support this fight, then leave and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe.
It didn't started in 2022 or 2014, it escalated for the last 30 years.
The Revolution of Dignity was about removing the Russian puppet. It was let by the people, who opposed orc control.
> armed these countries with heavy weapons
Friends help each other like that.
> encouraged them to fight Russia
As every sovereign nation should on their land.
> and promised to support this fight
Source.
> then leave
What NATO soldiers were there to leave?
> and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe.
Disgusting point of view. Russians attacked! What were the Ukrainians supposed to do? Surrender to people who want them killed?
by the way
West destroyed Iraq, there is a hell now.
West destroyed Lybia, there is a hell now.
West destroyed Afghanistan, there is a hell now.
West destroyed Serbia, ask Serbians, what do they think of NATO
There is peace in Crimea, there is a peace in South Ossetia. Nobody is shooting. The life is poor, mostly because of the west sanctions, but people are safe.
* Libya was given a no fight zone at the request of the people. It was a mistake, but the intentions were noble.
* Afghanistan started as a fair war. They gave aid to people who attacked a NATO country. It was completely fair to invade. Trying to nation-build it was a mistake though. But again, noble.
* Intervening on the side of the muslim terrorists in Kosovo was a mistake and some people in NATO (like us Romanians) opposed it (although our government supported it).
* The Russian occupied areas are hell holes. Transnistria is literally soviet.
Ask Croatians and Bosnians what they think about Serbs. Basically Serbia tried to do to them, exactly what Russia is doing now to Ukraine. Btw Serbia is starting to do pretty well comparing to when they were under USSR influence.
> There is peace in Crimea, there is a peace in South Ossetia. Nobody is shooting.
Nobody was shooting in entire Ukraine, before Russia decided to start stealing their country.
Especially with Putin gone and a more moderate leader.
So then if troops had been put there first it would be Putin starting it, and even he might not be crazy enough to do that.
By wavering the west has gotten into a position where Ukraine is being destroyed.
And this I agree. So now maybe the United States will stop wavering on Taiwan.
The problem is that is equivalent to setting up a flag. The East views America as an imperialist, and this would be provocation of imperialist expansion.
As such, there haven't been any "pushing of boundaries" unless you presume Russia gets to decide what independent nations like Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Sweden, Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, etc. may or may not do.
Yes and Russia doesn't deny that either. The request was for NATO to stop allowing countries like Ukraine to volunteer. Is that unfair ? Yes, it is a bully move. But that was the bully's request, and the West's stance is, effectively, we don't negotiate with terrorists. It's the attitude of: whatever, we do whatever we want. That's also fair, but don't be surprised why Russia proceeded, because they can have the same sentiment: whatever, we do whatever we want. The magnitude of recklessness is outsized, but the direction is the same.
It's up to Ukraine if they want to pursue NATO membership or any other agreement with any country or organization.
Russia has no say. It's not a negotiation between NATO and Russia. Russia isn't at the table. They can pine for old USSR glory all they want but nobody else wants that.
And the way Putin's been killing journalists and dissidents (in the UK no less), raiding the treasury, annexing Crimea, and other nonsense, I don't see them being invited to many negotiations in the future.
Well that attitude brought us to that point. Russia thinks that it should be at the table and it can prove it.
> And the way Putin's been killing journalists and dissidents (in the UK no less), raiding the treasury, annexing Crimea, and other nonsense, I don't see them being invited to many negotiations in the future.
Turkey is NATO member, do you know anything about Erdogan deeds? Or maybe that story when Saudi Prince DISMEMBERED that journalist in embassy and everyone were okay with it?
And it will leave with a bloody face.
> Or maybe that story when Saudi Prince DISMEMBERED that journalist in embassy and everyone were okay with it?
What have you been smoking? That blew up in MBS's face and lost billions in investments.
[1]: https://www-capital-bg.translate.goog/politika_i_ikonomika/v...