Hacker News Reader

Comment by foxtrottbravo | Hacker News Reader

As a European - just put it on the bill in the first place.

I will happily give 15-20% tips for great service, but that is a additional and is given freely - not what is to be expected.

View on HN

Sure, in theory that'd be ideal. In the mean time your refusal to accept the way it works in the country you're visiting only hurts service workers. That's why I said I personally couldn't be the friend of someone who does it.

I genuinely rather avoid any establishment that expects tips than feel obligated to pay tips. It does mean that I will never go to a restaurant or similar establishment, but the feeling of being obligated to pay some unsaid price just disgusts me. Either you say it upfront of there's no deal.

But it is clearly known up front. It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known.

That's true. I guess it would be difficult to avoid places where this obligation exists without knowing about it beforehand.

Some people avoid taking a holiday or business trip to India, because they don't like the constant harassment from street traders, the expectation to barter and bargain for everything, the ever-present concern that they're either overpaying or being ripped off.

Some of these people also avoid travelling to the USA (and Canada) for similar reasons. Am I supposed to tip for this? Is this a $1 tip, or $5, or 15%? But the card terminal is giving a choice of only 20% or 25%... and is it better to leave cash anyway?

(I'm sure you could explain every situation, just like an Indian can explain all the situations in India.)

Barter?

You are describing a Hippie taking a holiday, perhaps.

I am in India and I never bargain, hate the pressure. You never have to bargain unless you are in a known tourist trap places, wanting to buy trinkets.

In my experience (which is a decade out of date for India, admittedly, although the point was more about the USA) being white makes me an obvious tourist, regardless of the situation. Any initial price will be 5-20× higher than an initial price you'd get.

Fixed price markets and services like Uber are a welcome improvement, but there are still plenty of recent articles (mainly blogs) aimed at tourists concerning bargaining in India.

("Hippies" on holiday in most of Europe don't have to bargain.)

> It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known

What kind of weak-ass restaurant hygiene laws do you have there?

> But it is clearly known up front. It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known.

I've lived in the US all my life, and I'm still confused at when tips are required and when it's just a nice thing to do. Even order-at-the-counter places now ask for a tip (often pre-filled to 15%) at checkout. Are their employees being paid below minimum wage? I don't think so, but they know it's ambiguous enough that they can exploit the weird culture around tips.

Where is the line for when a tip is required? If I pick up my food at the counter but they clean up the tables when I'm done, are those employees making less than minimum wage? If I order at the counter but someone brings me the food? The sit-down restaurant with a dedicated waiter is the easy case, but it's not the only case.

There are a ton of ambiguous edge cases, and many, many restaurants are deliberately exploiting the uncertainty. The whole thing is a mess, and I totally sympathize with Europeans who get confused and just give up.

(Not that it's okay not to tip as long as we have this confusing mess of a wage system. You just can't say that it's an easy social norm to understand and follow.)

Then you need to find a different country to hang out in. Much like you would if you felt that covering your genitals was a needless cultural construct that disgusts you.

We live in a society.

We do. And surely we can improve it?

Perhaps. Don’t think you’re improving it by stiffing service workers on tips though.

Tipping culture in the US will never change unless millions of customers suddenly stop paying tips. When millions of customers stop paying tips at the same time if puts the pressure on establishments to start paying their employees fair wages. Customers should go on tip-strike

I don’t tip but also live somewhere with a far better minimum wage.

Not by not tipping the server who can legally be paid less than minimum wage by their employers.

That's not correct.

There's no plausible scenario where some sort of mass collective customer driven action requiring coordination is going to be effective.

Tipping culture will change when restaurants change their compensation structure.

A restaurant can commit to paying the team a fair wage, include the costs in the menu pricing, prohibit tipping, and loudly market that it's what they are doing. It's happened in many places and it works. Danny Meyer in NYC seems to be doing pretty well with this plan for example.

Depriving the least powerful people in the whole equation isn't a solution. Lobby the business owners who actually make the decisions.

You're not wrong there. The US is definitely on the list of countries that I don't want to visit. Albeit for other reasons.

Nobody tips at Mcdonalds.

See context of my initial post

> you should just consider a 15% tip a part of bill for anything where you sit down and have food brought to you

No table service at McDonald’s.

Well, we have table service at McDonald's in France. Still no tips :D

nobody cares about table service.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com