Comment by toomuchtodo | Hacker News Reader

Comment by toomuchtodo | Hacker News Reader

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Reproducing for the sake of doing so is clearing becoming passé [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. High level, the world needs less people [7]. Lots of roads to get there, all valid as long as they don't cause harm in the process. Live your best life, and for many, that means being childfree. If you're a decent, responsible parent, more power to you, as long as you're willing to shoulder the costs of your children. Culture and passing of it down is seemingly overrated in the current era (outside of some belief systems), and even the Mongol Empire ran out of steam (despite Genghis Khan's progeny and reproductive efforts). Build strong institutions that will withstand the test of time, versus traditional families, marriages, and progeny. Arguably, this is an indicator of an advanced civilization, versus relying on families and tribalism for strength and culture.

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate

[2] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/19/growing-sha...

[3] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/childles...

[4] https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-rise-of-childless-america

[5] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/03/29/childf...

[6] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/05/upshot/americans-are-havi...

[7] https://www.nationalgeographic.org/topics/resource-library-h...

> Lots of roads to get there, all valid as long as they don't cause harm in the process. Live your best life

I understand the axioms that lead to this assertion, but I reject the premise. It’s a terminal-stage evolution of western individualism. You don’t just have an obligation to yourself. The “child free” deprive their parents of grand kids, their siblings’ children of nieces and nephews, their neighbors of a bustling joyful society full of children.

From a technologist point of view it’s also just sad and defeatist. At the limit, we could solve climate change by just all killing our selves. You’re proposing to do that, just slower.

Children owe their parents and extended family nothing, as they had no choice being brought into the world. What they do with their life is entirely their choosing. Not everyone considers children joyful, but instead a burdensome, unnecessary obligation they can opt out of in nations with strong human rights protections. There is a difference between suicide as a species and an individual voluntarily choosing to not reproduce (for economic, lifestyle, or other reasons).

Life is lived and enjoyed, not owed.

I assume these differences in views are cultural, and will continue to drift as cohorts age in and age out of the populace.

> Children owe their parents and extended family nothing, as they had no choice being brought into the world. What they do with their life is entirely their choosing.

Terminal-state Western individualism. Not everything is about “choice.” Life chooses for us, gives us roles and duties and obligations. We come into this world owing a debt to our parents and family who help care for us that we can never repay, only pay forward to the next generation.

I would call it a duty more than a debt. I feel that I have a duty to look after my elders, but I do not think my children owe me a debt for conceiving them or for performing my own duty to take care of them.

I chime in only to say thank you, because a mere upvote seemed insufficient. Nowhere else, other than from you, can I get these viewpoints, and uttered in such thought-provoking and impactful ways. Please never leave us. :)

>We come into this world owing a debt to our parents and family who help care for us that we can never repay

Are you sure this belief is not the long-term effects of a kind of Stockholm syndrome? Namely, a irrational reaction to those years when you were utterly dependent on your parents?

The Repugnant Conclusion

I had never heard of this, but I have been looking for this sort of explanation of this model, thank you for mentioning it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_addition_paradox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasons_and_Persons

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/repugnant-conclusion/

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