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Comment by randomhodler84 | Hacker News Reader

Nah. But in all seriousness, this is totalitarian ruling. Wtf eu? RT might be a trash fire propaganda news but the EU ain’t at war with Russia. If the people want to listen to the propaganda, and I’m sure there were listener equivalents in neutral places either via SW or MW broadcast in ww2.

Making it illegal to route packets to them and to circumvent the block? Garbage tier laws.

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EU and Russia are at war in all but name. One of the key challenges in such situations is combating enemy propaganda, and so not letting the Russian state controlled broadcaster play in your country 24x7 is a no brainer.

Plus it isn't just about the content. Running a TV network can be a massively profitable business, and in this case the money is going out of EU citizens' pockets and straight to the Russian government. Pretty contradictory to impose sanctions and spend money arming Ukraine while also giving Russia a free revenue stream.

No. They are not at war "in all but name". War is a brutal thing, involving the deaths of thousands of young men. The EU is not by any stretch at war with Russia, nominally or otherwise.

The entire point of a free country is that people can handle the information. If not, why even bother?

Who do you think is supplying Ukraine with the weapons that are causing half these deaths? Who is feeding them real-time intelligence? The Russian economy is crippled by EU sanctions. Their foreign reserves are frozen. Russian planes cannot fly into EU airspace. Russian oligarchs are having their assets seized across Europe. Diplomats are being expelled on both sides.

These are not the actions between neutral, peaceful countries, but a full-fledged proxy war.

Europe, Europe, and Europe. But it isn't actually a war. A war is a horrible, brutal thing. Wikipedia tells us:

> War is an intense armed conflict between states, governments, societies, or paramilitary groups such as mercenaries, insurgents, and militias. It is generally characterized by extreme violence, aggression, destruction, and mortality, using regular or irregular military forces.

When you describe what the rest of us would call 'poor relations' as war, it raises the question of what you call it when thousands are drafted and brutally slaughtered. If this also is to be called 'war', then it raises the question: if you're already at war with them, what difference does it make if you decide to draft a few million young men and send them over there? Or for that matter a few strategic offensive weapons (colloquially known as nukes)?

Alternatively, you may contend that what everyone else calls "war" you call, let's say, "war 2". But in that case, your definition is unique to you, and is not terribly useful for communicating with other people.

I think Europe has pretty clearly shown (by their actions) that they are mobilizing the machinery of war. They don't have (many) people currently in harms way, we are content letting Ukrainians fight it out for now, but the machine is humming.

The machine of war isn't monolithic, and what you're seeing is that certain parts of it (like shutting down opposing propaganda) can be started without other parts (like literal fighting) being needed.

The terms cold war and proxy war have been around for a long time and are understood very well.

This is a tiresome distraction; okay, so by your definition of war, this kind of proxy war doesn't count. Fair enough, your definition of war is reasonable. We'll call the state between Europe and Russia "war prime" or whatever, since apparently no one disagrees with the actual state of affairs, just what to call it. Now we're back to the initial exchange, which was:

Person A: Why ban Russian state media? Europe and Russia are not at war. Person B: No, but they are at "war prime", which has some properties of war, including banning enemy propaganda.

Did creating the extra word to split the hair help resolve that conversation? It doesn't really feel like it to me. It seems like what most people would prefer the conversation be about is whether or not it makes sense to ban enemy propaganda in a state of "war prime" (or war, for that matter).

> War is a brutal thing, involving the deaths of thousands of young men.

Just want to point out that most EU millitaries, along with the Ukranians and the US have women as well. So there is death all around, no matter the sex.

That is extremely misleading, men suffer from intense misandrism. Ukrainians men are forced to stay captive in their cities to fight while ukrainian women are allowed to save their lives and flee the city, because they own a vagina.

No, women are allowed to leave Ukraine because, for the most part, they are responsible for raising the next generation of Ukrainians. The number one long-term job of any society is ultimately to raise the next generation. If you don't do that, the society doesn't exist in one or two generations' time.

What you consider misandry is in fact a feminist issue. Women often don't choose a life of childcare; it's something that can be forced upon them, because if they don't do it, no-one else will. Men get to choose whether to get involved. If the share of childcare was more equal, then there wouldn't be a reason to restrict leaving the country on a gendered basis.

Russia is already sending same threat letters with "safety guarantees" to European countries. On March 4th they are planning a big gathering for another speech of Putin. Russia is making changes to ODKB rules (shitty version of NATO among the post-soviet countries), that introduces the definition of "coordinating member" of this military alliance. They are about to start a 3rd world war.

Just guessing, but maybe you're in the US so it feels a little bit different to you...? This is what's it's like now in Denmark:

- We literally have 1 hour and 30 minutes of war updates before the half hour evening news every night.

- We've just delivered a huge batch of anti-tank weapons to Ukraine.

- We've basically sanctioned 90% of what is possible to sanction from Russia with more sanctions coming every day, plus private companies getting ahead of themselves to exit Russia the fastest, e.g. Maersk.

- People are volunteering to fight in Ukraine and our government has officially OK'd it.

- We're already taking in refugees coming in buses from the Ukraine.

It sure feels like we're at war here in all but name.

Germany’s center-left government just committed to massively upping defense spending, and Germany’s neighbors are apparently fine with it.

Never thought I’d live to see that happen.

Even though this isn't a shooting war for the EU, there are certain steps that might seem contradictory to the liberal principles that we normally claim to adhere to. Russia has been declared an enemy, even if that exact term might not have been used.

In a conflict enemy propaganda will be shut down, and enemy assets will be targeted. This means severe economic sanctions, blocking RT/Sputnik, and arming the Ukrainian armed forces to the teeth.

With luck, the Ukrainians will be able to end this without the situation getting out of hand. If not, this might escalate and get real ugly real fast.

I’m sure there were listener equivalents in neutral places either via SW or MW broadcast in ww2

In WW2 there was propaganda broadcast from Germany, in English and in MW to reach the UK and SW to reach the USA, by William Joyce. He was called Lord Haw-Haw because he pretended to by posh. His broadcasts were designed to demoralize the allied countries.

No doubt people in neutral countries tuned in. But that isn't really relevant. The point of the broadcasts was to reach non-neutral people wherever they might be.

He was captured in 1945 and hanged for treason.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Haw-Haw

> but the EU ain’t at war

Not officially, but they provide arms with explicit purpose of supporting one side and economically punishing the other. That's effectively a proxy war whether we call it one or not.

It seems to me that large parts of the world -are- at war with Russia. And, importantly, we manage to put a lot of pressure on the enemy without getting even more people killed.

Point reference - I try to block RT on YouTube but videos are being sprinkled into recommended list and I try to click to not show this channel anymore, but it persists. Real annoying, if I have autoplay their vids would jump on the list as well as I am preoccupied. Not sure how they are gaming YT algo.

I wonder (from a technical and legal point of view) if Youtube is blocking RT content in the EU, especially videos which are reuploaded.

They are literally threatening with nukes.

There's plenty of support for having sites like RT.

Greetings from a EU member in Belgium

I'm from the Czech Republic (inside former USSR's 'sphere of influence'), and the effects of Russian disinformation campaigns on our society are real. We are in a 'hybrid war' with Russia for at least ten years.

> and the effects of Russian disinformation campaigns on our society are real

is this not a failure of czech/european society at large instead of RT?

because idiots exist everywhere, they buy the russian propaganda like warm bread

So either get rid of the idiots or get rid of the propaganda. It is easier to get rid of the propaganda.

One of the primary things the EU can do is turn off some sources of misinformation.

If the suggestion it's a failure of society at large because that hasn't been done before then I suppose that could make sense but if it's in response to it being done now that makes even less sense.

What society is not susceptible to propaganda? Most Russians still think the war is just in the places where there are large Russian minorities and have no ideia the Russian government is attacking the fucking capital of Ukraine

> What society is not susceptible to propaganda?

oho, slippery slope here. by this measure most media should be banned.

This is rather like blaming the host for the spread of a virus.

why is the host not wearing a mask?

Sure, we do all kinds of things to prevent viral infections. We wash hands. We wear masks. We vaccinate. For sexually transmitted things there are condoms.

We also have immune systems.

But at a lower level, when the virus makes it to the cell and hijacks its machinery to spread... That's the part i was thinking of. The cell isn't to blame for being hijacked.

Because wearing a mask (banning broadcasting of RT is invasive and against liberal values) was unfashionable and people still complain and call it totalitarian. Now Europe is wearing a mask.

The West has always demonized Russia.

“Communism” equals the original sin and “communists” is basically a slur for about a century now.

After America worked so hard to unleash the most destructive weapon in human history, everyone should have cowed and crowned them the undisputed hegemons of the Earth. The idea of anyone daring to set themselves up as an antipode was extremely offensive.

Even after the fall of the USSR and the convenient appearance of Muslims and Chinese offering themselves as adversary to All That We Cherish, apparently the West can’t resist such a big and easy dart board to pin their failings upon;

Unrest in foreign nations? It’s the Russians. Division at home? Damn Ruskies again.

I wonder if some racism also comes into play here; Here we were, after so much War, with all the white nations agreeing to get along hereafter, but then there’s these “other” white people who are somehow different and don’t want to play along.

After we snuff out Russia, who will we turn upon next?

> “Communism” equals the original sin and “communists” is basically a slur for about a century now.

This is a very US perspective I think. Here in Germany there are many that think communism is fairer than capitalism (although perhaps unrealistic to attain). Insulting something/someone by saying something is communist or someone is a commy is not really something that happens here (except perhaps in politics).

[Edit] Just to add some perspective:

Communist parties in european parliament

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_communist_parties_repr...

Even large european countries have communist parties, some even voted into office (such as france, spain) and in the case of Spain even in the ruling coalition.

Implying this is a western view neglects to realize how much US vs. Soviet propaganda has shaped the US population.

I can attest to this. "Communist" is a slightly dirty word here in Denmark, but nowhere near the levels of the US.

I think the general consensus here is that the USSR was a shitty totalitarian state that failed for shitty totalitarian reasons. Communism was just what they called their brand of totalitarianism. In reality it was a corrupt dictatorship.

I can concur, having attended various schools around the globe growing up. In one nominally American school (actually run by Canadian Catholic brothers, but largely attended by boys of American ex-pats), calling someone a "Commie" was fighting words (i.e. liable to get you punched). In other schools if you called someone a "Commie" people would likely think you were very strange and/or drank too much of the Kool-Aid.

Do you think Russia are being unfairly demonised by western countries right now? Is the invasion of Ukraine, + war crimes in some way just?

Not OP. And I think so. It's outright war on all things Russian right now. Russia upset the social order of things and now they are being punished, everywhere, without impunity or due process. They will not stop until the entire Russian country is bankrupt and starving, or desperate enough to go far enough for them to escalate.

Honestly, I see this anti-Russia stuff as using the Ukraine tragedy to hide racist motivations. Way I see it, Russia is the only white nation in the world that has tried to stand up to woke bullies and is not conforming to the woke and egalitarian zeitgeist that the rest of the west is drinking. The west has just been waiting for the opportunity to launch a full on "justified" hate campaign to bully them into submission, like they do everything else these days under the guise of fairness and justice.

Sorry but it has to be said as all alternative opinions are being silenced and being removed from the world. I wanted to check this whole "RT is propaganda" claim by watching some RT and found out that it's been removed from the main distributor in South Africa. Half way across the world and some company or agency decided to jump in and ban a Russian television channel? You tell me straight that isn't retribution and/or coordinated censorship.

Of course it's coordinated censorship. Free speech is not unlimited.

By invading Ukraine and - in particular - threatening the use of nuclear weapons, Russia did the equivalent of shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre. Under the circumstances, the world is absolutely right to come down like a tonne of bricks on anything and everything Russian that might be used to justify those threats.

I don't think you realise the gravity of the situation.

BTW if you want alternative opinions there are plenty of non-RT ones out there. No-one's pulling China's CGTN off satellites, for example.

Not resorting to Whataboutism, but try to see how the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan (two in a row, and the subsequent occupation for 20 years no less!) by the US was seen as “just” by all the nations now condemning Russia.

Take a look at maps of NATO expansion:

https://old.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/t37zf4/countries_j...

If America was concerned about Russian nukes in Cuba, shouldn’t Russia be concerned about an alliance encroaching up to their literal border?

This is basically whataboutism. I don't consider myself well informed enough on any Middle Eastern conflicts, but if I found anything objectionable there, I'm happy to call out both the US and Russia on their BS.

BTW, "NATO expansion" was there for a reason, and you don't get to claim that the new members didn't want to join of their own initiative. Every post-communist country that wants to keep their self-determination is worried about falling back into being Russian puppets once more.

So would the US be okay with Cuba hosting Russian nukes to keep their self-determination from the US?

I consider my self a "commie", but I find Russia's government's behaviour repugnant.

It has nothing to with the average Russian, but everything to do with the Government, the dictator, and those who willingly support them.

That isn't to say the west hasn't done anything wrong. But by my account, we can pin the following on Russia:

- Installing puppets in foreign governments

  - Schroeder

  - Trump / GOP

  - Pushing for Brexit

- Supporting conspiracy groups that lead to an insurrection that threatened the semblance of democracy that the US had

- Sent children to war

- Committed 11 distinct war crimes in just 8 days, including shooting civies and children that were fleeing, hospitals, and wearing UN and Ua colours.

Russia isn't the problem, the problem is the person at the driver seat that is actively threatening a nuclear holocaust.

>>> That isn't to say the west hasn't done anything wrong. But by my account, we can pin the following on Russia:

>>> - Installing puppets in foreign governments

>>> - Schroeder

>>> - Trump / GOP

>>> - Pushing for Brexit

What .... Trump and GOP are russia plants? got proof?

I can provide arguments in favour of the position but not definitive proof, you can decide whether all of this is just "circumstantial".

- First day of war, Trump praises Putin for his behaviour, on tape, call him a genius [1, 4].

- Second day of war, Trump doubles down, on tape. [1]

- When asked whether [Trump] made a mistake calling [Putin] a genius, Moskow Mitch dodges the question, responds that Putin is a "ruthless thug". [2]

- [Repeatedly] met with Putin with no staff / note takers. [3]

- [The first time] Trump was impeached over holding aid of $400m from Ukraine. [4]

- Trump sides with Russia against FBI at Helsinki summit [5]

- Trump veto'd sanctions against Russia [6]

- Trump says it's 'common sense' to include Russia in G7 [7]

- Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador [8]

- Trump offered to help Putin with wildfires while ignoring wildfires in US [9, 10]

And the list keeps growing, consider looking into Manafort under the light of these events.

As for Schroeder, consider that he pushed for gas, is a close friend of Putin and didn't extend lifetimes of Nuclear plants, and after leaving his position he became board member in Gazprom [11, 12, 13]

[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...

[2] https://www.newsweek.com/mitch-mcconnell-calls-putin-ruthles...

[3] https://www.vox.com/2019/1/29/18202515/trump-putin-russia-g2...

[4] https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-statement-ukraine-cris...

[5] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44852812

[6] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/us/politics/senate-russia...

[7] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g7-summit-trump/trump-say...

[8] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump...

[9] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-trump-putin-wi...

[10] https://democrats.org/news/fact-sheet-trump-ignored-and-refu...

[11] https://www.politico.eu/article/outrage-germany-ex-chancello...

[12] https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-10562307...

[13] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-former-german-...

This comment is misleading.

Trump didn’t call Putin genius, he called Putin’s tactics genius. Which (at first) it definitely did seem like.

Do you really believe that that minor error on my behalf is enough to dismiss the mountains of evidence?

- Trump calls Putin "savvy" https://youtu.be/UsTH-WqbEu8?t=80

- Trump defends praising Putin https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/26/politics/trump-cpac-putin...

> The problem is not that Putin is smart, which, of course, he's smart

And sorry, it wasn't a genius, it was a stupid flop filled with greed and hubris.

Jesus Christ touch some grass.

I really can’t disagree with this:

> "The problem is not that Putin is smart, which, of course, he's smart," Trump said. "The problem is that our leaders are dumb... and so far, allowed him to get away with this travesty and assault on humanity."

Trump is smart, which is why he recommended Europe arms itself and reduces dependence on Russian gas during his term. Other Western leaders are dumb, because they didn’t listen to him (Merkel, Biden - shut down nuclear, stop domestic oil production, invest more in Russia). Putin is smart because he exploited this weakness.

If dumb Western leaders were at least as smart as Trump, we wouldn’t be in this situation. I predict another dumbass similar situation with China, soon.

Fact check:

- Trump wanted to sell US gas to EU in 2018.

- Trump wanted to pull out of NATO -> weaker NATO weaker response to Putin's invasion in 2019.

- Germany cut nuclear because Schroeder, friend of Putin's. See links above.

What weakness did Trump "exploit" and "how"? Also, citations needed.

> If dumb Western leaders were at least as smart as Trump, we wouldn’t be in this situation.

Yes, if western leaders were as smart as Trump, Ukraine would have been lost already, and covid would have ravaged Europe like it did with US.

If Russia actually took Trump seriously as a smart adversary who could threaten their power they wouldn't have tried to put get him elected and tried again to keep him in power [0,1]. I don't believe Trump was a Russian agent per se, although it is odd how Trump's connections with Russian business (and potential to be compromised) didn't raise any eyebrows among the set still screaming about Hunter Biden. It's obvious Russia supported Trump for the same reason many Americans did - as a "bull in the china shop of the establishment."

Russia probably wouldn't have succeeded in sabotaging American politics or sewing so much discord via Trump just being himself if half the country didn't happen to also want to see the system burn, albeit to a different end (an alt-right, anti progressive populist revolution.)

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...

[1]https://www.npr.org/2021/03/16/977958302/intelligence-report...

Trump was not impeached, the vote for it failed.

> Trump was not impeached, the vote for it failed.

Trump was impeached twice, the vote exceeding the required majority of the House of Representatives in each case. Impeachment is similar to indictment in the normal criminal process: a formal laying of charges.

Trump was not convicted in the trial resulting from either impeachment by the required 2/3 of the Senate, however.

Thanks for clarifying

that's a whole lot of time spent gathering news articles. I bet you have more. I think what news show is that, no matter which side, leaders aren't particularly interested in representing their people.

This is an intensely US-centric perspective.

If the West includes new joiners from behind the Iron Curtain, then let me tell you that any "demonisation" of Russia is deserved.

I'm too young to have experienced the communist times, but based on what I heard from my parents and from history, being a forcible subject to Russia sucks. And this is exactly what Russia is trying to achieve in Ukraine (if not just outright destruction instead).

I was willing to give Russia a loan of trust and see how its post-USSR identity evolved. Unfortunately, it seems like that hope wasn't met with reality.

It is made illegal precisely because it is not trash fire propaganda. Read some coverage of this crisis on there and judge for yourself.

[citation, from a non russian-state owned source, needed]

Russia today does some good reporting which is what makes it dangerous because false information or misleading reporting is mixed in on purpose under control of political russia.

Those who need garbage propaganda and are trained to handle it without manipulation, can use a VPN. Most people don't give 2 thoughts.

Where will you go when they block the VPNs?

A Web3 blockchain distributed serverless onion network

Yes, and I earn money to pay my bills from global business dynamic economy enterprise trading.

How are you to get on the Tor network?

This article is about such VPNs being potentially banned.

China couldn't block tor. Russia can't block tor.

It works, the people who wants to protect their interests are mad and are complaining about it on hackernews

Soon your crypto portfolio will vanish too ;)

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