What happened to my career after 2010? (2021) | Hacker News Reader

What happened to my career after 2010? (2021)

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244 pointsluu58 comments

Aside the medical misfortunes your story is absolutely typical. The games industry has a tragic problem with churn. I see eager CS graduates go off to "get into games". Within a few years they get out, bitter and burned, and go into more regular jobs in medicine, defence, finance or whatever.

It's called the 20:20:20 rule.

Only 20 percent of creative projects ever get to the production stage Of those, only 20 percent complete production. And of those, 20 percent get through marketing and publishing to become "titles".

That means if you are put into a team on a new creative project it has a roughly 0.8% chance of being sold online, and then you can tell all your friends about it.

There are two further problems. One is that projects like games or films take about 2 years to complete. That means it's likely your first project will get canned. And your second. And your third. I have spoken to devs in the game business 6 or more years into their careers who have never seen a title release.

If you are lucky to have a successful title and get into the "pop" stream, then it's more likely you'll get onto a team destined to have another success, and a positive success loop can begin. Just like the film or music business, that can take you 10 or 15 years.

The second is that creative people really need validation and feedback. Each time a management team kill a project it's a gut-wrenching experience for creative developers. Unlike music or the theatre where you might play out a few bad nights before a show is pulled you lose everything in a single stroke. Often for "intellectual property" or "reputational" reasons they want to bury the entire project assets and act like it never even happened. This leads creatives to get depressed.

I've seen a lot of it and now warn students about "getting into games" or any other industry that subsidises 99.2% of dead-end misery with obscene profits it makes on 0.8% of mega-successes. But that's just the Pareto mathematics of high-risk creative work.

My whole childhood in the 80s was writing video games at home. It's all I wanted to do. I was really fucking good at it.

First job out of school - writing video games professionally. It sucked. Really sucked. This was back in the mid-90s when the profession was in a really bad place.

I got out within 2 years and never went back :(

I heard the industry was much better now, though?

This is the game I worked on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination:_The_Nemesis_Proje...

> I heard the industry was much better now, though?

Perhaps get a hearing aid? It's extremely toxic.

I hope, as with the original article author, that you find a way to rediscover your childhood passion in a form that works for you today.

It's not hard to understand what happened to our generation as teenage geeky culture turned into a multi-billion global business in less than a decade. A ton of brilliant programmers got left behind and left out. Not just because there's only room for a few John Carmacks or Tim Sweenys, (there's a good deal of luck in navigating an unfolding culture), but because rapid industrialisation changes the very nature of what it touches.

Industrialisation of games had many unfortunate and unexpected effects. It made creativity a liability. Gaming is one of the most conservative industries on the planet, way, way ahead of music or film production for having cast itself in stone.

Coincident with formulation and industrialisation came specialisation and a great deal of deskilling. I knew guys in the late 90s who built their own 3D engines, knew quaternion geometry, how to mix, reverberate and filter multi-channel audio in C++. Now you just grab and Unreal or Unity engine, plug in and go. In some tragic ways, the smarter those hackers were the quicker they found themselves on the margins, or out on the scrap heap.

Like the music business, in the past 20 years the industry has functioned by burning through a lot of aspirational talent. It leaves a trail of broken hearts and dreams. As educators we have been complicit in overselling it, and feeding it with souls.

You can always tell an industry is a hustle when the marketing machine harps-on about how to "break into" it. Young people are made to feel that if they were privileged to get a job it would have little to do with their merits and talents, but their guile and grit. If you wanted a job you had to "break in to", become a burglar. The hours and the pay are much better. Maybe that's why many of the kids I taught to code switched from chasing that rainbow to being hackers.

It's also not unusual that even someone absolutely in the top 1% of the industry by one or more measures when relatively young just doesn't recapture the magic as companies change, consumer tastes change, etc. And even if they stay in the industry and talk at GDC and so forth, it's just not the same thing.

What's weird to me is that I feel like we're in a gaming dark age. How can that be if gaming engines make everything so much easier?

The single player game I probably played the most last year was MicroMages, a game written in 2019 for the 8-bit Nintendo Entertainment System. Somehow it was more captivating to me than say, GTA Online.

Some of my other fondest memories of games were very, very obscure games with text graphics that aren't even well known among people who play games with text graphics. All made by lone hackers.

I think a major reason for this stagnation in games and movies is that limitation breeds creativity. When you have a very restricted computer, your creative brain feels challenged and inspired, but when the world is at your fingertips, you have to work a lot harder to find inspiration.

Combine that with high budgets and big teams (high price of failure) and you have a recipe for stagnation.

> I knew guys in the late 90s who built their own 3D engines, knew quaternion geometry, how to mix, reverberate and filter multi-channel audio in C++.

That game had a 3D engine I wrote from scratch in two weeks (the game suddenly changed from 2D to 3D overnight), and it had a multi-channel audio engine I wrote in C++ that was way over the top for the game's need and I shaved a whole yak there.

I've heard Robolox is a nice place to work and every other gaming company is a little better than it was in the past because they have to be.

That’s partially due to that fact that Roblox is a platform and is not a gaming company. It’s a different business model and culture that isn’t subject to the vagaries of the games industry.

(And yes, it’s a great place to work!)

They are kind of both right? Like Steam and Epic. Roblox is a game. It is also a platform.

But I see what you are saying. The model is very different from a typical game studio.

Not really. Roblox the company doesn’t actually publish games (or experiences as we prefer to call them).

Valve and Epic both develop big titles in-house. Whereas Roblox’s experiences are developed by entirely separate entities.

Roblox isnt a game that the company Roblox makes?

I believe the first and second 20% but you’re saying 80% of completed games are never released? I’m curious why this would be the case if the bulk of the cost is already sunk.

I think it depends on what you think "games" means. If you think it means AAA titles, then no, 80% of AAA titles don't fail at the last step.

80% of all games created, including all the absolute garbage, fail. At least, that's how I read it.

It's like when they say "90% of new businesses fail." Sure, but most of those were bad ideas in the first place.

This feeling hits home! This may sound very cliche, but one conversation with my dad changed my entire view of life. In that conversation when I questioned him how he was so happy, he replied that he had never expected anything out of life.

The author also seems to find happiness out of the least expected things! He just tried things because he felt like it. Without expecting anything from it. It sounds selfish when people do things for themselves, but people like author needs these kind of work. The kind to let them go wild in their interest/imagination. Maybe author may find new interests, change his direction, and venture on new road. But that still means he is probably going to feel good about it.

I hope he is still having a good time (and hope that he has no issue regarding money!) Make the best out of your moment and good luck with your ML adventures. Cheers!!

"...he replied that he had never expected anything out of life."

Something that helps is to lower your expectations of other people, then be pleasantly surprised when they "step up".

"Pessimists are seldom disappointed."

Please take care of your mental health, people. Especially as a man, most men are trained to avoid seeking help. If you think there is something suspect about your behaviour, get it checked out.

In 2012 I realized there was something wrong with my brain, the way I was acting and living wasn't normal. 6 months later I sat down with my wife and we tried to make an appointment with a psychiatrist. It never happened because I was arrested due to my abnormal behaviour and spent the subsequent 8 years in jail. That was as bad as realizing that the 20 years before that had been lived vastly suboptimally.

You only have one life to live. It sucks if you're not living it at 100% of your capacity.

Hey, I’d love to hear more of your story if you’re willing to share.

> I'm posting it here since HN rejects it with "that comment is too long.

My god just thinking that you typed all this in a text box and were one accidental mouse click/backspace away from losing it all is making me shudder.

That final link really resonated with me. thank you so much for sharing.

I always type messages in an editor (EditPad Pro for me) and them paste them into the text boxes. I do this for email also.

Does this not persist when you navigate around? I've only ever seen the page contents here -- including text input values -- change if I explicitly reload. I haven't looked in any detail, but based on the behavior it seems to generally be getting cached in the browser?

(Though it does seem to be an HN thing specifically, and yes, I would absolutely dread this if I were typing a draft anywhere else)

4chan's website has this feature. Whenever you post a long thread and fail a CAPTCHA, all you need to do is click on [Start a new Thread] and hit ctrl + z. I am positive that almost every internet forum website has this feature. You can even hit ctrl + z on Discord and it'll undo your typing in the message box.

I've experienced that so many times that whenever I'm typing a comment above a certain length, I switch to my text editor, write it there, and then paste it back into the browser when I'm done.

And web apps are the “future”.

I'm no web dev at all, but it seems to me like a tiny amount of Javascript might prevent that by graying out the Post button if the text is too long.

I did my first hour of therapy this week and while I couldn't say anything unusual happened, I'm still in shock.

The craziest part is the effects are so subtle exactly like he described. One day you just realize it’s been weeks/a month since feeling depressed and it changes everything.

This is a great read and I'm happy for Shawn. Things seem to be better.

I'm also grateful for the pointer to Gwern Branwen's site https://www.gwern.net/. What an amazing creation! I haven't even scrolled yet and already have half a dozen tabs open from it.

It's in the same class of cognitohazards as tvtropes.org.

I'm not sure if you're saying that stumbling across this site will ruin my life, or enhance it....

Wow what a surprise ending, I thought the CPAP was going to solve your low energy and malaise problem but it was Prozac?

How did the CPAP affect your energy levels though? Did you try it that before jumping on an antidepressant? I wish you tried CPAP and see how you felt before letting a doctor feed you pills that may or may not have been needed do to a positive Narcolepsy diagnosis, which effects quality of sleep and life and arguably sleep deprivation would lead to depressive episodes and would subside once you get all your REM cycles every night for days and weeks and months.

Trying to diagnose somebody over the Internet is problematic even when the symptoms being described are already being successfully treated.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19699146/ -- I'll summarize it for you: when OSA appears along with narcolepsy, CPAP doesn't solve the narcolepsy and often interferes with the diagnosis of narcolepsy.

Sorry I am not understanding the conclusion from your post, other than CPAP is ineffective for OSA. When did I or anyone else diagnose OP? The antidepressants are a completely different class of drugs that affect brain chemistry, so that was all I was commenting on. The OP didn’t go to a psychiatrist to get assessed for depression, yet their primary care provider put them on antidepressants as part of a positive diagnosis of Narcolepsy??

Wouldn’t they fare better with Modafinil for wakefulness if they have OSA and will still struggle staying awake during daylight hours?

I’m just trying to understand how Prozac came from the diagnosis of OSA and Narcolepsy without evaluation by a psychiatrist?

I have narcolepsy so I may provide some clarity. CPAP is useless for narcolepsy as narcolepsy is not breathing issue. Narcolepsy is a neural condition in which the body does not properly gain energy during sleep resulting in daytime sleepiness.

This can be aided with a multitude of drugs, all of which affect the brains prefrontal cortex which also happens to be the part of the brain where ADHD, BPD, and anxiety/depression stem from. This can mean you may have any one of those conditions or just select symptoms in addition to narcolepsy.

I cannot answer about the Prozac specifically but I can say Modafanil may exacerbate problems the patient was unaware of or would rather avoid at a cost of trying other drugs. Likely OP did receive consultation on many drug options with potentially preexisting depression being a factor in choosing Prozac.

Thank you for the great explanation. It gave me a few new avenues for me to go educate myself further on the topic, as I will have to provide care for a parent that is on CPAP with OSA and now I understand why they are on Celexa. Take care!

Coincidentally, even I am thinking of making a switch from security to ML. I have just started my security career, but I already feel dissatisfied with not building stuff (and instead writing reports / doing analysis).

I used to have an aversion to ML due to the hype, but when I dove a bit deeper in practice, I really liked it. Have now done several deeplearning.ai courses and building some stuff on my own.

Looking into ML engineering / infrastructure work in the long term. Hard to switch domains given how saturated ML is, but if anyone has any leads, do contact me through my HN bio.

I also spend most of my time analysing businesses, documents, controls etc. Then finish it with writing a report, which usually just explains the gaps.

For me, I resonated with a post around a week ago which explained someone's perspective on wanting to join a trade to do hands on work where you actually built something.

The courses and the math is the "fun part". Job will involve a lot of data cleaning and pipeline building. Not that it is not interesting (I personally find the infra building more interesting than building and tweaking models) but just fyi. Pretty much every sexy job has the 5% which is sexy and the other 95% which is grunt work.

I don't mind grunt work as long as I'm building something in the process.

With most security roles you only get to look at what someone else made. If you're lucky you find something interesting, but that feedback loop is slow.

Narcolepsy is a recognized disability under the ADA. I am surprised there was no mention of this in the article.

Yeah, really hoping he got a big fat severance for that.

The other day I was having drinks with friends, and a buddy of mine brings up medication.

I am always advocating for taking responsibility for your mental health, finding a therapist, and getting on medication if you need it.

So we had a chat, and I discovered something: Half the table was on Prozac. Some of the men, and basically all of the women. Apparently Prozac helps a TON with PMS.

Another thing happened: I was talking to my brother, and he told me he got on a new medication. Yep, Prozac. It is like he is a different person. Happier, more artistic, more productive, more competent at work, able to procrastinate less.

I hear it over and over again. PROZAC IS A MIRACLE DRUG.

It is extremely helpful for people with anxiety, and can often massively reduce the symptoms of PMS.

(Groan, I sound like an ad...)

If you are struggling with anxiety, you do NOT need to talk to a therapist to try Prozac. Most medications are actually prescribed by your normal doctor. Just ask them, and they will likely give it to you. It's not like it is a party drug...

I've had similar realizations lately among my friends (early 30s). Especially since the pandemic, basically everyone is on one or more brain pills and most people have tried several.

In contrast to your story, I have yet to meet someone who reacts well to Prozac. It seems to be the first thing a GP prescribes, but nobody stays on it. Lots of sexual dysfunction and weight gain, minimal positive effects.

I was also put on it but did not stay long due to side effects and no improvement in other symptoms. I have been viewing it as a running joke in the industry, but I'm glad to hear it does in fact work for some people.

After a year or two driving around a new town and being frustrated with drivers driving 10 mph or more under the speed limit, I heard an npr report that 1 in 5 drivers was on an ssri. Probably another 20% on pot.

Correlation or causation of my anxiety, idk.

A CPAP machine changed my life. I had undiagnosed sleep apnia for most of my adult life and just assumed being constantly tired was the way. Until 5 years ago, when I had a sleep study and started using a CPAP. I had avoided the problem it for so long because I didn't want to go sleep in some lab and how does someone sleep with a giant mask on their face every night. Just excuses despite multiple people telling me I would stop breathing when I slept and a habit of just falling a sleep when I stopped moving.

The answers were: you don't need to sleep in a lab anymore most places have take home units and you get used to it quick because sleeping 8 hours and just waking up refreshed and really is worth anything.

I can't preach any louder about getting a sleep study. It changed mine and my wife's lives for the better.

I needed this encouragement, so thank you for taking the time to write it.

Nice. I imagined the story as it went through. I definitely felt connected to it. This guy definitely is a good writer. I also wrote about my feelings quite recently [0]. I talk about how i went through some bad feelings and how I went back up. But I'm still in high school and never had a real job, if that matters.

[0] https://trevcan.duckdns.org/blog/hello.touch.html

Can someone provide context here? Who is this?

TFA was written by https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=sillysaurusx

Context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27109946

This doesn't sound like Narcolepsy? A narcolepic person will suddenly fall asleep during a conversation, and 5-10 minutes later wake up and continue talking as if nothing happened. I was giving a ride to somebody in NYC once from Florida and getting directions was difficult. Several times I had to drive around the block for 20 minutes or so, and she would wake up angry that we were going to wrong way. Eventually we got her home and she got her medication (modifinil).

I think that's just an extreme case. To my knowledge, narcolepsy is simply an "unquenchable tiredness." You're never not exhausted.

I'm glad you were able to overcome your sleep issues. As someone who has spent a year figuring out how to sleep with a CPAP, let me assure you, I wish I could have been fixed with a pill. CPAP is amazing once you get it dialed in, but it took me a long time to acclimate, and it's a process that starts over when the seasons change an I have to change my machine settings.

Just out of curiosity - does modafinil help with narcolepsy ? AFAIK it's the only thing it's approved for.

Why wouldn't the drug approved for treating narcolepsy help with narcolepsy? The answer is yes, it helps, but I'm super confused why you asked.

Because it shouldn't be debilitating if it can be medicated ? So that's the part I'm curious about.

Whether a disease is debilitating doesn't have any dependency on it's treatability. Your assertion that treatable diseases aren't debilitating is just a misunderstanding of the words in the language you're using, whether willful or accidental.

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