Learning the hard way: Moving from NYC to Palo Alto and back in 1.5 months

The title of the article suggests that it was a mistake to leave NYC for Palo Alto, but there is nothing in the article which suggests Palo Alto was the problem. You may as well have titled this article "I got screwed by a guy named Ted".

It would probably still have been easier to move forward and develop your app in the Valley. I've been to General Assembly and it's a nice venue and I hope it continues to grown. But you can't suggest that the interactions and people you will meet there will compare to they types of advisors, investors, developers and potential CTO's you would have met in the Valley, or even just in Palo Alto.

The software on Hacker News is telling me that my comment is too long, so I will have to break it into 2 comments.

Here is part #1:

I do not know Josh Weinstein and for all I know he is a really great guy, and very trustworthy. None of my remarks here should be regarded as aimed at Josh.

However, I am a computer programmer who has worked with a lot of inexperienced entrepreneurs. In the style of the movie Rashamon, I feel like I could write something like Josh's post, where the same events happen yet they have a completely different meaning when told from a different point of view. Certainly, I've had conversations that sort of resemble what Josh describes, and I could pick out the various bits that I, too, would mark as "Red Flags", but for me the red flags concerned the entrepreneur that I was working with.

Again, these comments are not about Josh. But I feel like I've often played a role similar to that played by the developer he describes. And I've backed out of projects at the last minute, just like this developer did. I will here try describe what some of these discussions have felt like on my end.

Week #1:

Entrepreneur: I'm really excited to have you as part of this project!

Me: I'm really excited to be a part of this project!

Entrepreneur: Tracking which ads get clicks in videos is going to be huge!

Me: I think it will change things in a disruptive way and it will be exciting for independent content producers.

Entrepreneur: Exactly, we are going to empower them with information so they know exactly what they can charge!

Me: You understand that this project is too large for me to tackle alone?

Entrepreneur: Of course! That's why I'm putting together a team with diverse talents.

Me: Great! Who else do you have on board?

Entrepreneur: I've been talking to a guy in Britain who is really excited about this. Also a guy in Romania. And I've got a friend, Tom, from my home town who is really into this.

Me: Well, if they are all good, then, yes, a team of 4 programmers would be perfect to get this started.

Entrepreneur: Of course. I mean, just to ramp up. We'll hire more later.

Me: And all of these people are willing to work just for equity? None of these people need money?

Entrepreneur: Everyone is excited to be part of this!

Me: Hmm, okay. Well, I'll be free in 2 weeks and I look forward to ramping up the operation then. How about we do a big Skype call with the whole team at that time?

Entrepreneur: Sounds good!

2 weeks later:

Me: Okay, I'm free now. Are we ready to do the big Skype call?

Entrepreneur: Sure! Tom has worked out the whole marketing plan! He's going to describe it to us!

Me: Marketing plan? Tom is in charge of marketing?

Entrepreneur: Of course! That's what he studied in school!

Me: Oh, my bad. For some reason I thought he was a computer programmer.

Entrepreneur: No, no, he's our CMO. He and I have been working night and day to work out the details.

Me: Okay, I guess it would be good to hear how we might pitch this once its built. Are the other 2 programmers ready to Skype?

Entrepreneur: Oh, yeah, about them, the guy in England got a job at Goldman Sachs, and the guy in Romania won't be free for another month.

Me: What??? Damn, that is a setback.

Entrepreneur: No, no, it's good!

Me: What do you mean good?

Entrepreneur: It gives us more time to get the other details right!!!

Me: But what else matters if we don't have any code?

Entrepreneur: That's where you come in! You can write the code!

Me: But I already told you this project is way too big for one programmer to handle!!!

Entrepreneur: Don't worry, I've got another guy, Bill, who is still in school but has promised he can give us 20 hours a week.

Me: 20 hours a week on top of full time school? Is that realistic?

Entrepreneur: This guy is amazing! He wrote his first complete software app back when he was just 4 years old! He knew Basic before he knew English!

Me: Uh, okay. Well, look, if he can pull it off, then that is great. Is Tom ready with the marketing pitch?

Entrepreneur: Tom, are you ready?

Tom: Sure! Well, for starters, after a lot of discussion, we came up with a name: VisionClaus! Because we offer people a vision, and we are giving away our vision like we are Santa Claus.

Me: Uh, um, how did you come up with that name?

Tom: Well, at first we were thinking of having the word "video" in our name, but then we decided that was too limiting.

Entrepreneur: Yeah, way too limiting.

Tom: So then we asked ourselves, what are we really about? And we realized we are about vision.

Entrepreneur: Yeah, exactly, all about vision.

Tom: And vision has a double meaning, of course, because you have to have vision, as in sight, to see video, but we also offer vision of a higher kind.

Entrepreneur: Yeah, much higher. We've very high.

Tom: We offer a vision of the future.

Entrepreneur: Exactly. We don't give a damn about the present. We're all about the future.

Tom: But also, we have certain core values that we hold to be important.

Entrepreneur: This is the part that means the most to me.

Tom: Above all, we are generous. We want to help people.

Entrepreneur: I find this so moving, at an emotional level, to think about how many people we are going to help. I almost want to cry.

Tom: And who else is generous? Well, Santa Claus is generous.

Entrepreneur: Based on a Christian saint.

Tom: So we realized VisionClaus was the best name for us.

Entrepreneur: And, surprisingly, the domain was still available.

Me: Um, uh, um, okaaaaaaaay. Well, look, that's a cool name and all, but in the short term, the most important thing we can do is write some code. So I think we need to focus on that for awhile.

Entrepreneur: Don't worry! You'll have a lot of help soon! Just start writing code now!

Me: Okay, give me a few weeks and I'll try to come up with prototype.

4 weeks later:

Me: Well, it's taken a lot of hacking but I think I got us a video player that handles diverse media types and tracks clicks.

Entrepreneur: Is that all it can do?

Me: Well, I've been working part-time. Where is that other programmer?

Entrepreneur: He is busy with school. But don't worry! I've got another guy in India who really wants to help us! But I think we need to make this software more exciting!

Me: What do you have in mind?

Entrepreneur: Can you track eyeballs?

Tom: Yes, we need eyeball information.

Me: What do you mean?

Entrepreneur: Like, where are people looking on screen? What interests them?

Me: Uh, well, with specialized equipment, in a lab, we could track eyeballs and generate a heat map.

Entrepreneur: No, I mean, when folks are at home and they watch our videos.

Me: What are you talking about? Obviously we can't track what people look at when they are at home, their home computers don't track eyeball movements.

Entrepreneur: Oh, well, that is disappointing. There is no equipment that can do this?

Me: Yes, there is equipment that can track eyeballs, but no, most folks don't have it at home. Or do you mean you want to mail them the equipment? Where would we get the money for that?

Entrepreneur: Then it's possible? Really? Don't worry about the money! We can raise the money!

Me: Wait a minute, if you can raise that kind of money then maybe you can start paying me something!

Entrepreneur: Oh, well, we can't raise that much. Anyway, we gave you significant, very significant equity in this company!

Me: You gave me 2%, which I appreciate, but it was with the understanding that you'd start paying me once you had some money.

Entrepreneur: And we will! Just hang in their a little longer! Keep writing code! Tom and I are almost done with our investor pitch!

Me: Tom is helping with the investor pitch?

Entrepreneur: Of course! He's our CIOO!

Me: What the hell is a CIOO?

Entrepreneur: Chief Investor Outreach Officer!

Me: Uh, okay.

Entrepreneur: Let's meet in 2 weeks and we'll show you our pitch!

Me: Okay.

Not sure what signed employment contracts have to do with someone flaking on starting a job. Guy doesn't want to work for you, he's not going to work for you. No contract in the world changes that. Companies that give out 5-figure signing bonuses still lose people to better offers. That's life in the big leagues.

You don't make yourself look better by slagging people for doing something that everybody does.

If you want to pick this apart, I'd be interested in knowing the whole story. What was the comp package you offered him?

How do you get funding without a product? I see this all the time with MBA students fresh out of school. It's pretty annoying. Also, If this doesn't have the makings of someone who saw "The Social Network" and moved to Palo Alto I don't know what does. You ran at the first sign of Failure with a capital F. That doesn't bode well.

Josh, shit is going to happen. Learn to roll with the punches. PA is a startup haven because it's boring, there's nothing to do there but focus on building things. That's to bad things went down the way they did, that's unfortunate. Startups are a dedication game, in my mind at least. You should read this as encouragement next time you encounter difficultly.

This is what happens when you're a non-technical founder - you become desperately dependent on others, and when they fall through, you can't do any meaningful work (Josh describes what sounds like just reading some blogs and 'thinking' while Ted leaves him on the hook). Sometimes it works, of course, when the CTO you depend on actually is an awesome coder/architect, but you've essentially just increased your startups possibilities for failure with the same amount of upside as if you were just a technical founder in the first place.

I've noticed this dependency of non-technical founders on a "ninja rockstar CTO" is much more acceptable in the NYC startup community than the Valley.

This type of stuff happens all the time. It is the result of completely depending on a technical cofounder. Never, ever do that.

This happened to me with one of my products. I am a hacker but the level of expertise the product needed was beyond what I had to offer.

After a certain point in the development process, I was completely dependent on my partner. He never delivered anything on time and finally just stopped working on it when a paying client came around (although I offered to pay him many times).

Now, when I pursue something new, I make sure I can build it myself even if I do find someone I want to work with.

To the author;

If you're having trouble finding specifically "bi-directional video" guys you may want to expand your search to VoIP devs. Many of the challenges are the same, and the protocols. It is also likely that they will have more experience. A lot of large telcos have dropped big money on VoIP over the last decade. So there's a larger pool of talent available to draw from.

Also, consider the tone of your post, and your attitude in general. Devs have "Red Flags" we look for as well. You give off several. Consider that many people on this board have the skills your looking for, and/or know someone who does. Pay attention to what you are telling us.

I see three contributing factors here.

- Startup founders almost by definition have unreasonable ambition – a level of interest, motivation and excitement that exceeds their actual capacity.

- The best people to work with on a project are very dedicated to their commitments and are placed in positions where their dedication is a priority.

- People naturally place a higher priority on commitments that are existing, concrete, regular, place-oriented and are reinforced by the most social pressure from people they know well and interact with most frequently. (1)

So, you get this.

I've totally seen this before, not only having to be the one to say "no" (many, many times) and "I guess I can try working on it for an hour a day" (never enough) but even "wow, sorry, let me try to help" (when a friend's technical co-founder was swamped for months at their day job - again, it's hard to replace an expert or a full-time commitment).

I really think that this was a good person to get with, they honestly wanted to do this, and they thought they could swing it if they made the commitment. But again, that's their ambition talking. Their dedication was stuck at their existing job. I can't imagine the stress this caused both of you and I hope you both move on wiser and more motivated from this.

1. This is why every company wants people on-site, of course.

I have to admit that I don't understand this whole "find a technical co-founder" thing. This isn't like just hiring an employee, you have to be full partners and both "all in" on the project. If you don't already have a relationship before you start, you need to build one before you take the leap. And I particularly don't get how "non-technical" co-founders think they can run the show, when they don't have the expertise to do it themselves.

- Startup founders almost by definition have unreasonable ambition -- a level of interest that exceeds their actual capacity.

- The best people to work with on a project are very dedicated to their commitments and are placed in positions where their dedication is a priority.

- People unfailingly place a higher priority on commitments that are existing, concrete, regular, place-oriented and are reinforced by the most social pressure from people they know well and interact with the most. (1)

So this is just what happens, I think.

I've totally seen this before, both been the person that had to say "no" (many, many times), "I guess I can try helping you out for an hour a day" (never enough) and "I guess I can help" (when a friend's technical co-founder was swamped for months at their day job - again, it's hard to replace a full-time commitment).

I really think that this was a good person to get with, they honestly wanted to do this, and they thought they could swing it if they made the commitment. But again, that's their ambition talking. Their dedication was stuck at their existing job. I can't imagine the stress this caused both of you and I hope you both move on wiser and more motivated from this.

1. This is why seemingly every company wants people to work on-site.

>I let Ted’s former CEOs [the one who hesitated on ‘dishonesty’ word association] know what happened

I don't think this was a good idea. As you mentioned the warnings and red flags were all there but you didn't heed them. It's pretty clear that your awe of this guy was clouding your sense of judgement:

"... disappointed because of how much of an impact Ted would have had in taking us to the next level."

Honestly, it seems rather childish to have published something designed to bash another, with little more than a nod in the direction of your own responsibility for the situation.

Perhaps in the future you should consider projects that you can work on yourself without being too dependent on others.

I wouldn't focus so exclusively on someone who specializes in bi-directional video. Given the somewhat desperate nature of your situation, that seems too narrow. Just try to find a kick-ass hacker and assume that he can quickly learn the finer points of your niche.

That sucks, I have known people like "Ted" and have learned that any bit of flakiness early on (when you should be trying to impress each other) is a bad sign. 1.5 months is not a long time, though, keep at it!

Curious: Why move back? You sounded as though you were enjoying the West far more -- getting outdoors more, meeting lots of people, etc.

As much as you were like a fish out of water it sounded like a period of solid growth for you. I'd have stuck it out further :)

Why would you move back to NYC from the bay area? Having just made the move from SF to NYC myself (for personal reasons, although it's been working out professionally so far as well), I feel like the bay is really the place to be for the non-technical cofounder looking for their bad-ass CTO. NYC is absolutely flooded with non-technical cofounders like the OP - it's really a buyer's market in that sense. For me, as a technical cofounder, I'm definitely in the minority here and I can feel the desperation in the voices of all these non-technical people with their "great ideas, just need a CTO". I want to tell them all to move to the bay because there aren't enough of me to go around in NYC.

Something similar had happened to me. I met a guy on the east coast, skyped him, and ended up flying out there later in the week. Meeting went great, he was excited and ready to roll. I left, communication was good as first, we incorporated and had a conference call from my lawyers office. It got worse quick, he wouldn't answer phone calls text or emails for sometimes days at a time. Tons of excuses. Said he would work on stuff that never got done. I don't think he actually produced any code in the 2-3 months he spent stringing me along.

It was one of the most frustrating times of my life. It felt like someone was holding my actual baby hostage and because he lived so far away, I couldn't go bang on his door until he answered.

You know what I like about this guy ... his attitude when things go wrong.

No wallowing in self pity, just quick and firm decisions about what to do next ... very awesome read and a great lesson to learn.

Could somebody please explain this recent trend of "make your blog posts as skinny as possible"? Does this have something to do with iPhones? Is this the web-design equivalent of bumping the font size on a paper to make it look longer than it actually is?

Is there a reason people do this? It's incredibly annoying.

There are a million way to fail with a business venture. But this has to be one of the silliest ways I have ever read.

I love the article. Thanks for sharing. I have been there before and it sucks.

I think the biggest take-away for me was this line: "early on, it’s about commitment, honesty, and trust."

And that is why I decided to embark on an startup adventure with my best friends.

Josh, you might want to look at the Tokbox API to get the MVP out: http://www.tokbox.com/opentok/api

another princeton guy who wants to be successful. stay at goldman sachs

Why don't you just learn to code?

I echo the sentiments of those that say you shouldn't have gone to a space that was way above your technical competence if you don't have an existing relationship with a tech person. I know that limits your options but there are still ideas that are more appropriate for someone like you. Ideas like Groupon which rely more on commerce know-how rather than technical competence. Or a site like BusinessInsider, which can easily be done using Wordpress or open source solutions

stuy hs holler

Who on earth is voting this up?

When did it become cool to post one's own blog article? Seems like a slippery slope to spam hell.