Brand New Model F Keyboards | Hacker News Reader

Brand New Model F Keyboards

modelfkeyboards.com

I was suckered in by the deceptive copy on this site. When I found out about this project, over a year ago, in Feb 2021, the green text on the right said something similar:

2/28/21 please have your orders in by then! Project Status (February 2021): Now Shipping! (orders still accepted)

This made me think there was some deadline, and that orders were closing (ie. a group buy, like many other niche mechanical keyboard products). I ordered mine on 02-27-2021.

The author has assured me for over a year that I have not been scammed and my keyboard will arrive eventually. However they refuse to give any sort of information about how many are being shipped per month, or where I am in the queue. The blog posts that seem to arrive every other month only discuss how many orders have been accepted, not how many have been fulfilled.

I don't think it's a scam but it's a very poorly run business. If my keyboard ever arrives, no matter how it is, I will not do business with whatever mysterious individual is running the project.

As someone who also ordered a keyboard from them, I can say that it isn’t a scam, just crazy slow to arrive. I did eventually get my Model F, and it’s a solid keyboard. To give a bit of the benefit of the doubt: Iirc some of their news posts have talked about how shipping has been slower due to supply chain issues like keyboards sitting in cargo containers without a way to get them.

Also will add that I ordered two keyboards from them around 2018 and they finally came 2021 (without printed key caps) and I finally got the printed key caps this year.

Yeah, this is not a well run business, it seems more of a hobby project for the guy. Looks like he is basically doing everything by himself so it makes sense as a matter of policy to not give out estimates to individuals because otherwise that will probably take up the majority of his time instead of actually getting orders shipped out.

Other than that, very happy with the keyboard, its build quality, the NKRO (which model Ms don’t have), and the open source QMK firmware that is very customizable.

While an estimate would be great I would even settle for a “you are number X, currently serving number X+Y”

Very true, and I do agree the message at the top to “have your orders in by the end of this month!” is pretty deceptive also.

Yes. I ordered over a year ago and just want to know where I am in line.

Either he's so disorganized that he can't provide that info, or he feels he's not accountable to the people he's accepted money from. Either way, if I'd known that up front, I would not have loaned him the money (because that's what an order of a product with a multi-year lead time is, really - a loan)

I can also confirm it's not a scam. I ordered in August 2016 and it was delivered in January 2021.

That sounds like an awful long time, but I ordered around the beginning when I knew it wasn't a finished product yet. It was a lot of research and experimentation with production. The key caps took quite a while to get right. Things should be a lot speedier now, though.

Anyway, I'm very happy with it. I type morning to night so I think the cost was worth it for me. Like investing in a chair you find particularly comfortable. Or a standing desk. It makes the Model M look and feel like an embarrassment.

I received my F77 "New Model F" Keyboard at the end of last year, and I'm using it regularly. I ordered it in July of 2017, over 4 years before! Even back then there was a fake order "deadline" being updated every single month, and I agree that is the dumbest part of this project. I think it's a way of saying "I can't promise I won't raise prices from pre-order to retail level at the end of the month" but yeah it's still really dumb, especially over years.

But I knew the nature of the project before I ordered. It isn't for everyone, truly not a mass-market product. It's like $400 total, and you may still have some manual tweaking to do (e.g. I had to adjust my spacebar stabilizer wire). Also, I didn't really mind many of the delays due to relatively fanatical part/supply/manufacture quality control. All the info about the nature, history, and timelines of the project are publicly available, you just need to dig through years of updates and deskthority forum posts yourself, it's a bit scattered.

One other note, the firmware situation is also a bit scattered, not particularly well organized and summarized quite yet (and weird paragraph/list formatting and broken links on the official website) but I was able to find what I wanted to customize and build firmware just to my liking.

FWIW I'm happy with my F77 compact.

I concur with @ghostpepper. Buyer beware! I too purchased a keyboard over a year ago. I got suckered into the home page message indicating that orders have to be in by a certain date. Lo and behold, the dates are updated with the same message, indicating its BS. I never thought the wait would be this long. Thankfully the owner, whoever this guy is, is receptive and quick to reply. He always assures that I have not been scammed and that my order will be delivered. But as to when is ambiguous. For all I know, it may take another year or two to finally receive my VERY expensive keyboard. Or maybe never — who knows. I advise anyone here to refrain from handing over their money to this mysterious individual unless you are ok with having your money taken and order status staying in limbo for years.

At over $300 each, I'm not sure they are worth it. The Model M is similar, still in production, and about $100. It's also made in the USA.

https://www.pckeyboard.com/

As a bit of a Model M fanatic, the Unicomp keyboards are nice but they are not as durable as a Model M, and certainly not as a Model F. I've had a number of Unicomps and they have all died eventually.

My current keyboard is a Topre REALFORCE (exact model https://www.realforce.co.jp/en/products/104UB-S_XF11T0/ ) and it's been going strong.

Kind of regret getting the one with very dim keycaps, I have to admit.

The real deal would be the Model F 122 key - which I still have somewhere and still works with a strange adapter I found on eBay - the additional keys make weird letters.

I've been using Unicomp keyboards since 2008. Right now I have four working Unicomp keyboards. Two Unicomp keyboards have failed on me in the past 14 years. Maybe they aren't as durable as the original Model M, but at least for me, they seem pretty durable.

Yeah, they're certainly more durable than a normal keyboard, and all deaths have been abnormal (spills, etc).

I agree.

I need function keys, essentially I do not get the trend towards micro-sized keyboards - I want more keys, not less.

THANK YOU for making me feel less like a lone voice crying in the wilderness!

I do not get the trend for tiny reduced keyboards. I use my numeric pad. I use all my cursor keys, not just up/down/left/right but Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn – and not only on their own, but with Ctrl and Shift and combinations thereof.

I want more keys, not fewer. I want F-keys I can use for program control _and_ maybe another set for media/screen control _as well_. Not either/or, both.

I don't want more combinations to hold down; I want fewer. If there's a combo I need a lot, then I want it on its own key. I don't want a Fn key on a desktop.

I don't want one on a laptop either, but I also don't want an Amstrad PPC-sized laptop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_PPC_512

OTOH, this applies too: https://ifunny.co/picture/as-canadiangold-follow-i-don-t-wan...

my ideal is like the offspring of a 122-key IBM keyboard and the space cadet keyboard, ideally fully macroed and programable.

Being able to configure my keyboard to go Control-A n on a single keypress is useful for me.

:-)

Sounds great to me!

Topre all the way. I have now four of those, and the one I like the most is the PFU variant with 45g uniformly weighted keys. Being able to adjust the actuation point is great for the occasional gaming session. They are also very silent, especially when placed on a mat.

For new options, I think the Unicomp options are pretty nice, though I did have 1 in 4 fail over the past 12 years. Not as strong/durable as original IBM Model M options, plastic casing is lower grade and backplate is thinner. Another down side compared to other options is no backlighting.

I've also been pretty fond of Cherry MX Brown switch keyboards, probably the most similar feel imo. Have a few das keyboards, which have been pretty good, started using this at work since my unicomps are more noisy. Since WFH using the unicomp again.

While I've been willing to go up to the $100-150 price range, I don't think I'd notice the difference going beyond that where I would find it worth it. Laptop and sub-$75 keyboards all feel like mush... and the knockoff "brown" switches aren't nearly as good imo.

I believe the original model f, adjusted for inflation were more expensive.

Model M is very stiff in comparison. I hated it and I rather like model F.

I tried ordering a mini-m recently. Their website said it was in stock and would ship in 3 days, maximum. I tried using a credit card that had a different address for shipping and billing. It wouldn't go through. I contacted support and they claimed to be unable to process a transaction with differing addresses. I used a different payment method, and it worked. I waited 8 days for a shipped notification before contacting them. They replied that it won't ship for at least another 2 months. They said they had no stock. I asked why it says they do on their website, and they just redirected the conversation and never once apologized. They never updated their website to reflect the truth about their stock. They also never fixed the problem with the website allowing orders with differing addresses. I ended up having to wait about a week for the multiple orders to drop off my credit card. I really needed a new keyboard quickly as my current one was starting to defect and unicomp really wasted my time.

Former threads:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14544177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18546466 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14715697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25025035 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24546818

Bearing in mind that the price of the keyboard was probably included in the price of the "computer" back in the day and may have been masked, does $355 seem high to anyone else? What was the cost of a Model M/Model F back in its heyday, adjusted for inflation?

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/misconceptions-about-the-mod...

> The original Model F F77 keyboard sold for $925 adjusted for inflation, according to the January 1984 IBM Hardware Price List ($375 in 1984 dollars). New ones are less than half the original cost. Metal construction, extremely tight tolerances (a number of factories today could not meet IBM’s 1980s tolerances and we had to start over on a number of components-keys, springs), high price of zinc. Should last for decades. Replacement electronics (xwhatsit controller) PCB design, firmware and GUI software are all open source so can keep using your Model F even if the electronics fail. Alternative controller design (CommonSense controller by DMA) also proven working (in case chip of the xwhatsit controller is no longer available). The Model F Keyboard is fully and easily disassembled and repairable unlike the Model M and other keyboards.

The original price of the 5150 was $1565, which included a monitor and keyboard. Was 23% of that price really for the keyboard?

I don't see how companies can take an order and then wait forever to ship.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/bus...

The FTC gives a 30-day window, after which the company is required to either obtain the customer's consent (silence is NOT consent, as per the FTC) or refund the money automatically.

I have an original production Model M and don't think I would ever go back to it. It's extremely loud (friends would always complain if we were gaming together), keypresses are very heavy, and it takes up a ton of deskspace.

If the Model M or F are appealing to you, at this price point you should also consider some more modern production keyboards or even building your own from a kit + switches + keycaps. If you're after the heavy & tactile keypresses of buckling springs a board with Cherry MX Clear (common) or Green (less common) will probably satisfy you - I can highly recommend any of Leopold's boards with Clears in them.

Cherry feels like cheap chinese crap compared to model F switches. They don't even feel remotely similar.

IMO, some of Kailh's clickbar switches are a better bet than Cherry's click jacket ones. They also tend to be cheaper!

Box Jade is relatively soft to press with a sharp tactile event, Box Whites are softer still, and Box Navies are too stiff for me. I currently use Pinks, since they have a medium-thickness clickbar.

And since someone might want linears (no bump or sound in the keypress), Gateron Yellow switches are a great value. Not the cream of the crop, but very nice for what they are, and you can buy them from any number of sites.

I have 5 or 6 original production Model Ms – I'm typing on one now – and it remains the best PC keyboard ever made, IMHO.

I've used them consistently in every office job I've had in the last 8 years, too. Two (2) colleagues ever have complained, out of hundreds. OTOH I worked in two Linux vendors, so there were lots of folks with mechanical keyboards. :-)

Love the click of these keyboards but I can't use them because of how unergonomic they are on my wrists. Does anyone know of an ergonomic version of this kind of keyboard?

Nothing else has the Model F mechanism.

The Model M has a similar but not as good mechanism.

If your question is really "where can I buy a good ergonomic mechanical keyboard with high quality clicky keyswitches", the answers are myriad.

Ergodox and variants are columnar and split.

The Moonlander is columnar and split.

X-Bows are columnar and angled but not split.

All of these can be bought with blue and/or clear and/or green series switches.

I'm buying American this year - any idea where it's made?

"Designed in USA, made in China" according to the label: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/D...

Thank you! Also found this:

"Production is expected to take several months, and sea mail from China to me should take 1-2 additional months."

Yeah if you order one you shouldn’t expect it sooner than at least 6-12 months. And you’re not gonna get any info about when it might arrive, it will basically just show up one day probably after you forgot you ordered it.

According to a "birth certificate label" on the page, China.

If you haven't come across them yet, Unicomp Model M are made in Kentucky

https://www.pckeyboard.com/

Anyone else find the copy inconsistent?

> Built to Last for Decades, Not Years

> If you do find a[n original] Model F, it will be some combination of dirty, broken and/or expensive, requiring hours of work to get it working again!

If all the originals are broken, were they really built to last decades?

Well, they were mostly produced in the 199th decade, and it is now the 203rd decade. You don't have to last four decades to "last for decades".

I think it means they'll last for decades when actively used and left in a sane environment. Most of the original Model F's were sent to the landfill long ago, so the current supply is from electronic recyclers, fished out of the trash when somebody's office dumps old stuff, or found in somebody's grandma's barn.

Ugh why not make a split keyboard, the regular ones are just wrist-killers (for me at least)

https://www.pckeyboard.com is where I go for buckling spring keyboards. But lately I need two different ones on my desk so I go with a more compact style.

I wish there more "cool" split keyboard options out there.

I can't type on an inline keyboard like this without wrist issues for any significant amount of time.

exactly! Also unfortunate that not that none of the [new] fancy switches (buckling spring, analogue, etc.) are available without a board.

It's sitting on the shelf because I'm still extremely slow at typing on a new layout, but I do love the look and feel of my https://keyboard.io model 01

There's a huge variety out there in the mechanical keyboard space.

To name a few that can be bought assembled:

- Moonlander - https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/

- ErgoDox and relatives - https://www.ergodox.io/ (prebuilt from https://ergodox-ez.com/ or https://falba.tech/)

- Kinesis Edge - https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/

- Kinesis FreeStyle Pro - https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle-pro/

- Kinesis Advantage 360 - https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/ (not yet released)

- Keyboard.io Model 100 - https://shop.keyboard.io/ (The Model 01 is now EOL, the updated Model 100 is supposed to ship later this year)

- Ultimate Hacking Keyboard - https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

If you're handy with a soldering iron or want to learn, there's also a huge variety of DIY split keyboards. For general research, the ErgoMechKeyboards subreddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/) has plenty of info.

A short list of possible fun ones, though links are results from quick google searches. There are generally plenty of kits/variants/versions for each of these and this is not an exhaustive list, nor an endorsement for any vendors/sellers.

- Iris - a split ergonomic keyboard with 4x6 vertically staggered keys and 3 or 4 thumb keys - prebuilt: https://keeb.io/collections/pre-built-keyboards/products/iri...

- Nyquist - a 60% ortholinear split ergo - Prebuilt: https://keeb.io/collections/pre-built-keyboards/products/nyq...

- Sofle - 6×4+5 keys column-staggered split keyboard with encoder support - https://josefadamcik.github.io/SofleKeyboard/ - Kits/assembled: https://keebd.com/products/sofle-v2-1-rgb-keyboard-kit

This is a good list. I've gone entirely to the Cloud9 Ergo, mostly because of the large space bars combined with split/tented design. I cannot type on a keyboard like the Ergodox and Kinesis models where I have to hit a space key that is only one key wide. I move around on the board too much, and I invariably hit one of the adjacent buttons.

https://cloudnineergo.com/

Starting at 350? Isn't that a bit steep for a mechanical keyboard? I got a Leopold that I'm really happy with for nearly 1/3 of that.

According to the site the original Model F retailed for $395 in 1980 - almost a grand if adjusted for inflation.

This was also a time when those keyboards were made in USA, and you plugged them into a computer that cost as much as two new cars.

These do look pretty nice. But yeah my Das Keyboard was $200. Lasts a long time too, I've had it for 6 years now.

I think mine is going on 8 years now.

I have tried a number of mechanical switch keyboards, but nothing has ever compared to the comfort and joy of using my Das.

Longevity is relative. The M I'm typing on turns 31 in 17 days from now.

I'm very happy with my Leopold with Cherry MX Clears, having come from a Model M as my first board. Alternatively, at this price point one could put together a very decent custom from a kit + switches + keycaps.

Keep in mind this thing is made basically entirely out of metal (it’s extremely heavy for a keyboard) and uses a different mechanism for keys than current mechanical keyboards. Look up what a “buckling spring” keyboard is. Like I said in another comment I managed to get one of these (after a VERY long time from ordering) and it’s definitely not the same as mechanical keyboards you’d buy elsewhere. Satisfying to type on, but super loud (which I like), and a little bit of a weird layout which I think is because of replicating the original Model M/F. If you’re happy with your keyboard there’s no reason to buy this one.

I wasn't aware that this is entirely metal but still the steep price would make me think twice before buying it. I imagine it's built like a tank and it will last forever but so will a Leopold, though it's top facing case is plastic. Perhaps if I played on one and really fell in love I'd shell out that kind of money.

$399 if you'd like keys on your keyboard.

Anything cheaper is mass produced, and there's not a big enough market to mass produce these, so we are stuck with bespoke prices. Not many choices if you want a steel case!

If they include a trackpoint-like device and three buttons like the KU-1255 they will be onto a winner.

Also, inverted dome trackpoint heads are the best! :-)

I have gone through my fair share of mechanical keyboards, i don't like to mod them besides maybe 1 custom keycap.

So far my favorite stock keyboards have been from Leopold, i have a 660M with reds to game and a 660C with the silent topres for work. Fit and finish is amazing compared to my old ducky/corsair/razor keyboards.

I'm tempted but people already comment on the loudness of my blue cherry switches.

I use these "Cherry MX Rubber O-Ring Switch Dampeners" on my keyboard, doesn't affect the feel much but reduces the sound substantially: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AZQ2OF8/ref=ppx_yo_dt...

I'm already using them :')

I got a Durgod Taurus K310 (white) from Amazon and I couldn't be happier with it. I don't think I'd pay for a keyboard costing over 300 USD (225 GBP) though, but I know many who would.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com