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Much of what the English speaking elite in India & much of the west consumes as a theory on caste is a handiwork of a colonial-evangelist mission.

So much of it has to be taken with a boatload of salt. Since it is politically incorrect to challenge the established views, one simply has to rely on ones own observation. Especially if they are missing the woods for the trees on these debates.

It is very much in line with the western debates on race inequality, feminism or gender pronouns. Those claiming to fight these inequalities, intentionally or unintentionally create more fissures and distrust.

And unlike the western world where there has been a systemic slavery or persecution of indigenous population, in India there are literally thousands of castes and not always a clear idea of hierarchy. The hierarchy was mostly an academic theory built on flimsy propaganda.

Also the very same people who see privilege among sections of the Hindus are completely blind to the privilege of Christians or Muslims, considering that large parts of India have been under Islamic and Christian colonisation for several centuries. And Hindus have faced the same kind of violence from these two groups as much of the rest of the world.

In a way caste might have been the social glue that allowed the indigenous people to put up a fight and maintain their Hindu identity.

There is a strong correlation between caste and economic mobility & urbanisation. The ones who preserve their caste the most are ones who can gain some privileges in the form of vote banks, social security or class benefits, this easily excludes 90% of the urban educated masses.

In a country of 1.4 billion, sure there are large swathes of population still behest with the caste problem, but also in a country where 1/3 of the people are malnourished and have stunted growth, caste is hardly the biggest problem and might actually be a evolved social survival mechanism.

That’s all very well but it’s pretty obvious that Dalits get a raw deal in India, and if you don’t think so, then you may just be kidding yourself. Equally, if you think of Muslims as “privileged” under the current BJP government, you need a reality check.

Many Poor muslims just as many poor Indian are now getting electricity, subsidised toilets, zero balance bank accounts, direct benefits transfer for the first time under BJP rule. Many muslim women are for the first time are freed from triple talaq.

Their life is certainly far better than the muslims in Pakistan, so much so that many parts of Pakistan are revolting and claiming to want to reunite with India.

Whatever your claims of muslim persecution is mostly manufactured. In may ways the more radical elements are testing the limits of the patience of the citizens. I wish India would follow the west and start De-Arabising the muslim population, after all each community has their unique dress and culture.

Don't argue with upper caste muslims.

I am a big admirer of Ali Anwar, founder of Pasmanda Muslim Mahaz. The hindu-muslim binary of the Indian poltics is the biggest issue lower caste muslims are facing today. Every issue is about Hindu and Muslim or Upper and Lower caste Hindus but None talks about the plight of the Dalit and Pasmanda lower caste Muslims.

I know I will get downvoted by upper caste ashrafs and sayeed muslims but this it the trusth. Cast matters, even if you are a muslim in India.

Lower caste pasmanda Muslims are not even allowed to bury their dead bodies with those of upper caste pure blood Muslims, who claim to be descendants of the prophet Mohammed.

Ali Anwar despite being a Muslim was in the JD(U)-BJP alliance in Bihar. BJP is a Hindu-nationalist party that also bought some progressive changes in the Muslim community. I don't like BJP but sometimes even the devil does the right thing, banning triple-talaq was one of such positive things done to uplift oppressed Muslim women.

“The pattern of hate crimes committed against Muslims with seeming impunity – many of them in states where the Bharatiya Janata Party is in power – is deeply worrying. Unfortunately both the Prime Minister and various Chief Ministers have done little to show that they disapprove of this violence”

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/06/india-hate-cr...

“ In December, Uttar Pradesh police arbitrarily arrested 10 Muslim men under a law introduced by the Uttar Pradesh Government that targets consensual interfaith marriages, and allegedly tortured them. The legislation, which has been termed the “love jihad” law by right-wing nationalists and leading politicians, had not been approved by the Indian Parliament or the state legislature.”

“ The government accused members of the Muslim Tablighi Jamaat minority of spreading COVID-19, and as a result, health care facilities denied access to Muslims. Instances of hospitals refusing Muslim pregnant women and cancer patients surfaced in April 2020. In the months following the nationwide lockdown of March, social media and WhatsApp groups were flooded with calls for social and economic boycotts of Muslims, alongside fake news stories and other misinformation.”

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/asia-and-the-pacific/sou...

And more. But why multiply examples?

In many parts of India muslims block off roads and public spaces to "offer namaz". This is illegal in may islamic countries in the Middle East.

Many countries in "liberal" Europe have banned the hijab.

Amnesty is not a reliable source of anything.

When India bans namaz on the streets and hijab which I think it should, perhaps you can come back and make these complaints.

Islamists fear of BJP & Hindus might very well be true, since they are incapable of feeling guilt having killed or ethnically cleansed millions of Hindus from their homeland in Pakistan, Bangladesh or Kashmir, at least fear will keep them in check.

Jesus christ, it's 2022 and you're legitimately arguing that BJP is helpful towards Muslims.

+1 someone saying BJP is helping muslims has to be from another planet. Lol

Caught between Mullahs & BJP, I am sure any sane Muslim will choose the BJP.

The only ones who hate BJP are also the Ashraf ones, who are worried about loosing their privileges.

What a stupid choice.

BJP is literally diametrically opposed to Muslims. There may be a lot of shit Mullahs, but at least some care.

I have also never heard of this sort of patting shoulder behavior but I think we have to accept it as a truth if it’s something being reported by many people.

Caste and class divisions run very deep in South Asian culture. I’m disappointed that even in tech where workers are generally highly educated this is something that continues to exist (please: I’m not talking about the necessity of a college education to be a good engineer, that’s another conversation. I’m pointing out that most tech jobs require a college education, in many cases Grad School education).

Why the alleged patting behaviour seems unlikely - even if it worked, it would only tell you if the person is a member of the relatively few castes that wear that.

The point isn’t that it works or not but that is our society so down that we fall for such tactics? And also, that is it really a thing done by people or is it just made up?

Actually, Sai Deepak mentions that 15% of those classified as SC/STs also wear the sacred thread. Of course, we know 'Shudras' have run empires in India and have held high status before the age of colonialism.

Unsuprising that the Western press and academia has the nuance of a brick, perhaps because their own history is so grotesquely checkered.

This is extremely misleading and a copout to suggest that even SC/STs wear the thread. Reality is that 99.99% of them don't.

I wouldn't trust Sai Deepak with anything, he's a nut job who for some reason sounds eloquent to the upper class Hindus.

> he's a nut job who for some reason sounds eloquent to the upper class Hindus.

This is true for any demagogues btw. It’s why Jordan Peterson appeals so much to upper class White Americans.

I don't belong to the SC/ST group. I don't wear the thread and none of my friends (no matter which group they come from) do. So I am not sure what is your point? Once again this is some stupid journo not doing research and spreading FUD. If Westerners want to be moralizing the first thing they should start with is being sound about their research. Even actual issues will be dismissed in future by larger population in India if this is the kind of work that is presented as truth.

Not sure what you are trying to say?

> Deepak mentions that 15% of those classified as SC/STs also wear the sacred thread

My point is that this is incorrect.

For what reason do you say that?

edit: asking this question to clarify since the other reply(ies) take this as a given.

>Reality is that 99.99% of them don't.

This is incorrect. I can vouch this is a relatively common practice in Maharashtra.

> Unsuprising that the Western press and academia has the nuance of a brick, perhaps because their own history is so grotesquely checkered.

There will always be an element of the intangible in any effort by the Western mind to understand India. The experience is one of irreducible complexity, the subject receding from attempts to form a mental framework that permits nuanced understanding.

This documentary is 50 years old. Nothing has changed.

https://youtu.be/XFGO8oL0RLk

Indeed the children introducing themselves in US with their caste is a thing to be highlighted from the article. Really feel bad about what we are teaching our kids. I am in India not in US, but did not expect this even in India today.

That part feels fake to me, not only due to all other kids being brahmin (which statistically from my experience as an Indian American feels very off), but most Indian Americans don't really care that much about caste, most know it but they don't know enough to be "proud" of it.

same thing with the children in that kids class all saying they were Brahmin, even in silicon valley where there are a ton of Brahmins, i doubt they make up the majority of Indians.