Stock Market Meltdowns - Why they will happen again and again and again
blogmaverick.com
blogmaverick.com
The real solution is that we need someone like Mark Cuban to start a competing stock market. He could create listing requirements that would include mandatory rules such as 1) requiring that companies only pay dividends (instead of doing stock buybacks 2) CEO's must get paid based on how the company does for the decade after they leave 3) all shareholders must either vote for the board members or hire a proxy voting firm, etc. etc.
I don't know what the exact rules would be, but I'm sure someone could design a set of rules that would be both less obtrusive and more effective than our current regulations. If the rules are designed well, this new well managed market will give investors higher returns. That will force the existing markets to shape up or lose their investors.
Lobbying works on two fronts. First, is the appeal to public welfare. In the 1980's the interests in favor of creating Fannie Mae appealed to the dream of home ownership and the idea of making homes more affordable. They convinced Congress that a quasi-public company would make interest rates cheaper and housing more affordable ( in the short run this is true, since with implicit government backing, they could borrow more cheaply). Later in the 1990's Fanne Mae convinced Congress that in the goal of opening up home ownership to more people, they should lower the down payment requirements. Again, there is the appeal to helping the poor achieve the American dream.
Of course, the lobbyists are also looking out for their own self-interest. Lowering the down payment requirements would help them sell more loans and make more money. Perhaps the lobbyists were being cynical about the benefits to the poor. Or perhaps they believed their own marketing and genuinely believed it was win-win. It doesn't matter, the effect is the same.
The second part of lobbying is the campaign contributions and the golf games. This provides the Congressman the personal incentive to support the lobbyists' plan. Most of this happens right out in the open - the days of passing around suit cases full of cash are over (although if you want to read about those times check out Caro's Master of the Senate). The amount of the contributions is not enormous, but in an election every bit helps. It's enough money that the Congressman will try to find away to help the lobbyist if he can.
The end result is disastrous. By having the implicit government backing and by lowering the down payment requirements, Fannie Mae was able to make massive number of irresponsible loans Its managers made tens of millions. Then the whole thing crashed and the taxpayer is now footed with part of the bill. But no Congressman will pay any price for the debacle, so they never learn the lesson. Most voters won't even know who is responsible. And the general voting public has no ability to vote out the members of the banking committee - voters can only vote out the member of their own district. Of course the voters of that particular district don't want to vote their particular Congressman out. If they did, they would lose the earmarks that come from having a senior Congressman. Thus, there ends up being no accountability. Congress ends up with a 98% reelection rate and a 20% approval rating.
For the Congressmen involved, it is just a case of good intentions gone awry. In fact, I actually think Congressmen genuinely believed they were doing the right thing when they created Fannie Mae. Righteousness has an amazing ability to align itself with self-interest.
I find it amusing when people subscribe to the "throw the bums out" theory of politics. If you've every worked in Washington, you realize that the people running the show are generally no worse than anyone else in the country. Most are pretty decent, a few are rotten. The real problem is the incentive structure of our current political system. The only solution to fixing Washington is major Constitutional reform.
Also, great info thanks for the posts.
Priceless.
A lot of predicted demographic time-bombs may not materialize because of this. The social security crisis may be a nonissue - if every retiree worked just 2-3 years more, social security remains solvent for the forseeable future, and many retirees plan to work more than 2-3 years into retirement age.
But certainly demographics have failed to predict the future in the past, and personally, I'm amazed at what's happened to my income in the past 5 years or so (I'm in my 40s and saving like mad - though all in cash right now).
The more interesting trend, as you mention, is what this is doing to the career opportunities of the next generation. Since boomers aren't retiring, the top jobs in many organizations aren't opening up. And so many people my age and slightly older (I'm a very early Millenial) believe there's no possibility for advancement on the corporate ladder. Hence the recent trend towards entrepreneurship among young Gen-Xers and Millenials.
Whether this results in a net inflow or outflow in the capital markets depends on the real economic growth of all these startups. If they really do open new markets, then the economy expands, more money flows into savings, and the stock market keeps going up. If they don't, then the non-retirement of boomers just means a transfer of savings rates from the young to the old. Boomers won't have trouble supporting themselves in old age, but they'll have to support their kids.
He did teach me that entrepreneurship is a lifelong pursuit.
I'm thinking there's actually a large pool of cash sitting on the sidelines, from people that didn't drink the Kool-Aid during the 04-07 boomlet. And once there's a signal that this has bottomed out - maybe it'll be Dow 10K, or S&P 1K, or the bankruptcy of the last of the big-5 investment banks - all that cash is going to come flooding back into the market, and they'll be a big pop in stock prices. I'm waiting a bit - I think there's still more bad news that hasn't been factored into the market. But it may be time to start buying soon.
If you do not believe you can time the market though, then being 100% cash is as bad strategy now as at any other time.
I have no evidence to show dividend-bearing stocks outperform their counterparts, but my point is that those counterparts are overvalued. If a company will never be bought, will never pay dividends, and will never wind down operations rather than face bankruptcy, the net present value of its stock is therefore 0.
so google is worthless? the point of owning a share is to make money from your ownership. if that comes through dividends or through sale value, who cares?
I have no evidence to show dividend-bearing stocks outperform their counterparts, but my point is that those counterparts are overvalued
do you know what fair value is? the price the equity is currently trading at. look at MSFT. a total dog but wheee...look, they cut me a check a few times a year and i take the wife to a movie. and why do dividends imply value? maybe microsoft could have taken the dividend cash and used it to buy out google. excess cash is often seen as a LIABILITY, as it shows the firm cannot use the money to effectively grow. MSFT is a classic example...losing market share even though they have a mountain of cash.
The stock price is, in theory, the net present value of the stream of earnings its bearer will receive. So if no company will ever pay significant monies when it winds down, that leaves dividends
no, stocks get delisted before they go under, and you get bupkus. how are your LEH dividends doing?
Now, baseball cards can be quite valuable. The price can fluctuate enormously, You can make money from investing in them. The price correlates with real world events such as batting average. But fundamentally, the value is based purely on fads, perception, herd behavior, and marketing. At any time, the floor can drop out. The price can plummet and never recover ( baseball cards were my first investing experience and I'm still scarred :-) )
A dividend paying stock has fundamental value. As long as the company's business remains strong, you will earn money from owning the stock, even if everybody else in the world believes it is worthless.
It's threads like this that cause economic meltdowns.
What wouldn't seem right would be if there were no bad bets. In something as risky as tech startups, most bets should be bad.
Other mature tech companies not paying dividends include Adobe, Autodesk, Apple, Cisco, EA, Activision, Intuit, Oracle, Symantec, Amazon, and Ebay. And the few that do pay dividends (IBM, HP, and Microsoft for instance) have a very low dividend yields. It seems to me that there has been a breakdown of corporate governance.
Adobe, for instance, is in the perfect position to pay dividends. It is a group of cash cows that might suddenly get destroyed by new market entrants. They're putting the money in a vault [1], but they're not paying dividends [2].
The problem, as I see it, is that companies refuse to admit they're dying. It's the weirdest thing.
[1] http://finance.google.com/finance?q=adbe [2] http://sec.edgar-online.com/2008/04/04/0001047469-08-004108/...
You need to look at this from a 'whole' perspective. You can make money from buying high selling low, but the market cannot.
Let's see here. Google pays no dividends, is probably to large to be bought, won't be allowed to merge for antitrust reasons, and if it behaves like other Silicon Valley companies that came and went, will spend every last penny before acknowledging defeat (which granted, is a long way off).
Unless Google pays dividends at some point (which Silicon Valley companies usually do not do), then yes, it's stock is worthless. That's exactly what I'm saying. Its stock buys and sells at $441.41 as of my writing this, but is intrinsically worthless.
as worthless as any other paper currency. indeed google stock has performed well against the US dollar (you could redeem your GOOG into euros).
no fiat currency has intrinsic value. come to grips with this. paper currencies have come and gone, stocks are no different than dollars or euros...its just a piece of paper that people will either value high, low, or not at all
The recent trend is that mature companies are not paying dividends. This trend is new enough that it probably hasn't shown up in performance statistics. But it is very worrisome on a fundamental level. A stock like Yahoo! or Alcatel has little room for its price to grow, thus you can only make a return via dividends. Without dividends, owning it is almost certain to be a losing proposition.
look up short selling, options. if a stock price is MOVING, you can profit
dividends are the only way to make money if the share price is static
Top technology stocks that pay (eg IBM,MSFT) usually pay <1.5%. Even currently cashed up oil stocks tend to stay under 2%. So either way it seems to me if you were buying to own (isn't that theoretically what you're doing), you'd need to be expecting to earn the majority of your marbles on growth.
I freely admit, I don't understand financial markets. But it always seems like the emperor has no clothes.
Theoretically all those guys holding MSFT should not be willing to pay more then about $9 per share (price is about $25) unless they expect growth & no risk.
As you say, almost no company is issuing dividends that in themselves justify share prices so it's all just betting on growth. Does that mean that rational people are betting on the growth of virtually all (existing) companies?
Of course, the stock market's never before been faced with such a huge influx of stock-owning retirees, or plausible peaks in energy and some metals--without which growth as we know it can't exist--so you pay your money and you take your chances.
having said that, a lot of old school companies (at least here) pay good dividends still - so there is a class of "dividend" stock versus growth stock - although some growth is still expected.
you can say the same for dollar bills. what is a dollar's INTRINSIC value? zero. its just a piece of paper
But if the dragon's actions are controlled by a board and the board is elected by the shareholders, then the share is suddenly worth a lot more. Now it's theoretically possible for the shareholders, acting en masse, to redistribute the gold to themselves at some point in the future, and so the share combined with the voting right is worth real money, even if the distribution never happens.
PS. Apologies if I'm missing a reference to something with the gold-hoarding dragon and the defunct Buddhist temple construction company.
It's well researched that the number of 45 year olds is a major important economic variable. They're at their peak earning, investing, and consuming stage.
Japan's baby boomer 45 year old peak came a bit over ten years before ours, which is passing now. Not a good sign considering what has happened in Japan.
And it's fine that way. Far better than the dull, grey unproductivity of all other known alternatives.
That said, I agree with his point, to an extent. One of the things that keep people from declaring bankruptcy is that it would have severe, lasting consequences - destroying their credit record, and preventing them from being a director of a business for quite some time. Some similar system should exist for any corporate leaders. You don't want to go too far in that direction either, though - otherwise, you might stifle the risk-taking that does get us to interesting new places.
Relevant excerpt from CNN: http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/05/news/newsmakers/buffett_fort...
Original source: http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2005ltr.pdf (you'll have to wade through to page 17)
I'd attribute bubbles and meltdowns to flaws in humanity itself. They happen because people have to make investment decisions in the absence of perfect information, using thought processes that have evolved to take into account peers' opinions as much as hard factual data. Inevitably, some of those decisions will be wrong, and that wrongness appears as a large number of firms going bust at once.
The way to avoid financial meltdowns is to make every human a God. However, if we did that, they could just snap their fingers and get what they want, so their wouldn't be much need for an economy at all.
Pretty much every single bust since 1870 has been the explosion of a credit bubble. Cheap credit is the heroin of democracies. In the short term, it's like free money. It's cheaper to buy stuff, and it doesn't result in higher taxes. Politicians are always for it. The cheap money will endear them with the population in the next election, and they won't be around for the bust ( or no one will remember who's at fault). In the long run, cheap credit leads to too much debt and people can borrow no more. This leads to two choices. Choice one, the borrowing must stop, and with it consumption. This sends the economy into recession or depression ( this is heroin withdrawal, the Volcker strategy in the 1980's). Or two, the government must make credit even cheaper ( higher doses of heroin - the Alan Greenspan strategy in 2001).
amen, it will be only too late that people realize that those who print the currency run the show, and thats the Fed...who by the way are not accountable to voters in any meaningful way
I am a fan of Iain M Banks - in his "Culture" series novels, thats pretty much what happens to the dominant "Culture" - people can get whatever they want when they want, so they turn to art and fashion and fads to occupy themselves (one such one was voluntarily catching cold/flu just to feel what it is like to get better).
no, because banks don't even do this kind of lending anymore. to grow google organically would have taken decades. in that time they would have been crushed by competitors with access to public funds
American Tobacco
are you aware that american tobacco was one of the first stocks listed on the dow? sorry to blow your theory, and to boot the formation of the company was based on monopoly economics
Ford Motor Company, still controlled by the original founding family.
and larry and sergey own a lot of google. and jerry and david own a lot of yahoo. founders keep lots of stock, this has nothing to do with public/private ownership. the ford family extracts wealth from ford, they do not contribute to it or bankroll it
Interestingly enough, Cramer (who is not really well liked in this community) was trying to be a whistleblower a year ago on this very issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1eSlYtXiro
I liked the 'I wish I could go tell people to buy Wa-mu' part...check out the one year on that.
what does it all mean? DEFLATION IS HERE. even near-zero real rates can't elevate prices. deflation is here, depression2 cannot be avoided
I think Mark is right that this will happen again and again, but not because we don't have enough legal structures in place. Although that would help for a while, it would soon be undermined. Capital markets are a prisoner's dilemma. If everyone behaves, everyone wins, but there's just too much incentive to misbehave and win spectacularly at the expense of others. With so many people playing, it seems impossible to avoid.
Unfortunately, 80 years, four generations, is just long enough to forget the lessons from last time.
we need a rollback to direct incentives.
There may be special rules for giving to parties, to "got into office" parties, and for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
Anyway...interesting stuff.
However, I strongly disagree with this article. First of all, bubbles and crashes seem to be an inherent property of market economies. They've existed for at least four centuries (tulip bulb, anyone?) and possibly longer. Overreaching optimism seems to be an inherent human trait. Overpaid CEOs are a relatively new (few decades) phenomenon.
The OP asks: Would you let someone fire and embarass you for a check for $20mm dollars ? So would CEOs.
I'm not sure this is true. The CEO is going to be out of work for a few years, and possibly be unemployable at his current level in the future. Given that he already makes $10 million, a potential five-year setback is not worth that amount of severance.
I agree that large company CEOs are overrated and overpaid, but I can't assign them all the blame for current economic problems, the sources of which are a lot more complex than the OP seems to think.
lets ask ourselves WHY the bankers took such risks
because they just wanted to have fun? get real
how do you make money as a banker when the Fed has lowered "real" rates (rates adjusted for inflation) to ZERO???
you have to make riskier loans. you sure as shit can't make money in a low interest rate environment lending to credit worthy people
the Fed prodded bankers to make these risky loans
sorry cuban, any cub reporter for the WSJ could tell you this
First of all, bubbles and crashes seem to be an inherent property of market economies
indeed, but we've had two massive bubbles in ten years. the nasdaq bubble was 10x the size of the 1929 bubble (ref: bob prechter). the housing bubble dwarf the florida bubble of the 20s...you must admit that this is curious
who do you think put the US on a "low low low rates" regime?
who do you think CREATED THE DOTCOM BUBBLE and the HOUSING BUBBLE?
not CEOs, GREENSPAN
and bernanke is just playing the hand he was dealt
the problem isn't CEOs who are out of control, it is central bankers who blow bubbles without consequence. the Fed has power these CEOs can't even fantasize about
go ask any of the serious financial journalists at thestreet, marketwatch, wsj, nytimes....without hesitation they will all tell you that low rates set by the Fed created this mess.
Also there's absolutely no need to shout here.
greenspan adored low rates. he set the too low and then was too late in raising them. poor ben bernanke...given a corpse and told to make it ready to run a marathon. not much choice for ben but to lower rates again. once again, he was too late in raising them.
its all in the Feds rate-setting power folks. THEY are the ones who dictate the level of risk in the economy. why do you think so many people call for the abolishment of the Fed?
trivia: did the US economy grow faster and with more stability pre-fed (pre 1913) or post-fed?
Not really a fair comparison - the U.S. economy was smaller pre-fed, and so it was much easier for it to grow at a higher percentage rate. That's like saying that China is growing 3x faster than the U.S, and so a pseudo-communist authoritarian government with all ownership of land is better than a free-market democracy. ;-)
Trivia: Who performed the role of the Fed before there was a Fed? Just because you get rid of it doesn't mean it won't exist. ;-)
its totally valid. the economy has only shrunk temporarily on a small number of occasions. the economy is more or less always growing, so it is always smaller in the past. indeed the US suffered a bad depression in the 1870s but pulled through without the Fed
Trivia: Who performed the role of the Fed before there was a Fed?
there wasn't one source. remember bank and state notes?
in any case, prior to the fed, a dollar held its value for decades. post fed, the dollar lost 99% of its value
That wasn't my point. It's easier for small economy to grow at a higher rate. If a $50B economy grows by $50B, that's a 100% growth rate. If a $10T economy grows by $50B, that's a 0.5% growth rate. For the $10T economy to grow by 100%, it would need $10T of additional goods and services, which is a significantly harder accomplishment than growing by $50B.
The answer to my trivia question, BTW, is J.P. Morgan. The Fed was created as a reaction to the panic of 1907, when Morgan went over the books of each failing bank and said "Nope, let it fail" or "Okay, the trouble stops here. Let's give them cash" depending on whether they were solvent. Much like Bernanke & Paulson have had to do with Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers. Congress felt that this was too much power to concentrate in the hands of a private individual, and so they created the Fed as a quasi-government organization responsible to Congress.
Inflation is not unique to the Fed system, either. Remember "not worth a Continental", or the erstwhile Confederate dollar? The 1870-1910 era featured deflation because it coincided with the industrial revolution and a huge flood of cheap new goods onto the market, not because of the absence of the Fed. The 1929-1932 era also featured deflation, yet had an activist Fed that interfered far more than the current one.
i know and i basically agree...my point is that the Fed has not demonstrably proven to grow the economy, manage the currency, or control inflation better than other forces. while we have not lost our currency like the old bank notes, the dollar has lost 99% of its value. relative to pre-1913, the dollar is indeed worthless
The answer to my trivia question, BTW, is J.P. Morgan
he bankrolled the government for, what,. thirteen days, he did not print currency. indeed that event goes back to your "small numbers" arg. he could bankroll the govt because it was small. bill gates could not fund our govt for thirteen days today.
Isn't it much better to have the bankers be responsible for bailing out their own mess, rather than have the taxpayers do it? How is the creation of the Fed a positive development in this case?
And yes, the Fed isn't the only way inflation happens. Good old fashioned printing money to cover the cost of war works too, and it's just as awful.
Basically, I don't think it's the Fed that's the problem. It's humans.